preferred transmission for tractor with front end loader

[brdmkr]

I am starting to think of getting another tractor with an FEL.  It would sure help with log moving, but would also come in handy with construction, minor dirt work, etc.  I had never considered the type of transmission as being particularly relevant, but a fellow today made a pretty strong case for hydrostatic drive if using an FEL was a priority.  What he said made sense, but I was looking at HIS hydrostatic drive tractor!  I figure that there are a number of folks here that use a tractor much like I would, so I thought I'd ask your opinions.      Does type of transmission make a difference?  Should I be looking primarily for a hydrostatic or would a synchro shuttle be just as good ??? ??? ??? 

[J_T]

Trust me hydrostat ;D

[Reddog]

Depends on the HP range. Above about 50 all you can get is gear trans. Then go Hyd Shuttle or some call it Hyd reverser.

[Ironwood]

I don't know anything but smallish tractors and all I can say is it doesn't take long to toast a clutch w/ a FEL. The little diesels generate  a fair amount of torque and with all the traction the clutch is the weakest link. For me with out reservation Hydrostat. easy to use for me of hte wife and someday the kids.

           

Ironwood

[Corley5]

Most larger newer tractors now have wet clutches so they last MUCH longer  8) 8)

[Kcwoodbutcher]

Done it both ways -hydrostatic is much, much easier and faster.

[beenthere]

hydrastatic transmission.  no question... 8)

[Dave Shepard]

If it's available in the HP range you are looking at, get a hydrostat! I have a Kubota L48 and I have moved thousands of tons of material with it, both bucketing and bulldozing. It is being replaced with the M59 model, which will have HST-II 8) 8) 8) If'n I was upgrading, I would get one.


Dave

[brdmkr]

The tractors in question are a 42 HP Kubota and a Deere 4710.  Both are hydrostatic 4WD.

I have also been given a price for a Mahindra 5500 4WD with FEL.  The Mahindra only costs a tad more than the other 2 and it is used.  BUT it is synchro shuttle.  The Mahindra is a HEAVY tractor.  Really, it is too heavy for me to haul very far.  Fortunately, I doubt I would haul it very far.

Given all the comments, it sounds like I might be better off with the hydrostatic.

[Tom]

Hydrostatic is more productive and easier on you. Resist the urge to use the transmission as a brake or going from forward to backward without stopping.  One of the most important features to have with a FEL is 4WD.  Steering with a loaded bucket in soup will make a preacher put the good book down.

[Don_Papenburg]

I have a Power Quad in my 7710  FWA  with a creeper gear The power quad lets me shift without the clutch within any of the four ranges.

[scsmith42]

I defer to the others re hydrostatic, but must admit that I haven't had any problems with my shuttle shift tranny's.

Agree with Tom re 4WD - it's a much stronger front axle that's needed with a FEL.

My biggest complaint re farm tractors with FEL's is that the power steering is not always up to the task of turning the wheels with the maximum load in the bucket.  be sure to check this out with the dealer.

Scott

[brdmkr]

Not that it mattes, but I mis-typed.  The Mahindra is NEW and only slightly more than the other 2.  Still, it sounds like I need to really consider the hydrostatic.  Scott makes another point that I had not considered with regard to the power steering.  Any experience with these tractors regarding the steering with a load on the FEL?

[ErikC]

  A couple of things that also influence steering are front tire size and rear weight. I have used synchro-shift with reverser's for years, they are great. Manual transmission with no reverser is a real pain when doing loader work. Machines like loader- backhoes are meant to do a lot more serious loader work than farm tractors, and have been using some type of simple reverser since the late 1960's. That was no accident. I run tractors a lot and HATE loader work with a manual tranmission. The hydrostatic will be way easier to finesse, and operate smoother also.

Erik

[beenthere]

I'm familiar with the Deere (48hp) you speak of, and there is no shortage of power for the steering. There is a separate pump for steering and another for the rest of the hydraulics.

With hydrostat transmission, you have a foot for forward/reverse and ground speed, a hand free to steer, and another hand free to operate the loader. Leaves a foot free to operate the brakes left/right rear wheels.

You won't look back if you get the hyd. transmission. Expect the same from the Kubota.

Not saying anything about the Mahindra...no experience with them.

[ScottAR]

Given the choices I'd go for one of the hydros unless you can justify
the bigger tractor to pull a bigger mower or something.  I don't know
enough with mahindra to know what size that model is.

I do like the shuttle shift on my 580D.  Click the lever and your going
backwards as fast you got there.  It's not apples to apples to the above
though.

[BBTom]

I got my Kubota M4700 when I was farming, and did not want the hydro for field work.  I do wish I had it now that I am sawmilling full time. 

I have toasted a clutch on it, and I know it is my fault. The problem with a clutch is when you are stacking lumber.  You always have to just inch forward or back just a little bit and hold it there, so this stack is lined up just right with the stack below.  I catch myself slipping the clutch to do so. 

Next tractor will be hydro, but it will still be a 'bota,  I have abused mine to no end, and have been real happy with it.

[jackpine]

BRDMKR
I have a Mahindra 6500, 65 hp. 4wd with FEL and synchro-shuttle tranny. They are good, simple, rugged tractors for the money. Having said that, if I could have gotten a tractor of that size, for anywhere near that price, with a hydrostatic, I would have. I have owned  straight manual and run tractors with hydro  and while the shuttle is much better than the manual the hydro far & away is best for loader work. Scott's point about power steering is good as my previous tractor had no power steering if I had a large load on the front. The ps pump would not handle that much weight, but the Mahindra has no problem at all as it will still steer with both back wheels off the ground.The 5500 is 55 hp and is a large framed tractor like the 6500, sometimes too large to manuver around the mill.
Any other questions? I will be glad to help.

Bill

[thecfarm]

I myself still like my maual shuttle shift tractor.I still don't use the shuttle shift.I have used it,but I just use the clutch.I don't need to inch froward an inch or two or need to go fast when I'm doing loader work.I have a place that I dig into to get dirt to fill up the holes when I dig a rock out.No need for me to try to do it fast.I do have the hydro on a small Kubota that we mow with.I like it for that.But for the real big jobs I like the manual part.I would buy another manual one if this needs to be replaced.I use my Ford in the woods alot.That makes a big diffenace to me.Been quite a few years,but I think I have a wet clutch.Now if I was going to start to use the loader most of the time,than I would probaly look at a hydro.Just depends how you work 'em.I gotten so use to a clutch over the years that if I had a hydro I would have to re-teach myself.Now when the front wheels come off the ground from trying to twitch out to much with my 3pth winch,I step on the clutch from habit.Things happen quick out in the woods sometimes.

[Reddog]

Most larger newer tractors now have wet clutches so they last MUCH longer  8) 8)

My M6800 Kubota has wet clutches and a Hyd shuttle.
On the family dairy farm they have another one with 5000 hours of only going back and forth. It is used for feeding, scrapping and sand laying. No problems yet.

I also know of to 70 hp AGCO's on dairy farms with HYD Shuttle. On both the cluthes were finally changed at 10,000 hours.
So wet clutches do last much longer than dry.

I have not seen any one keep a HYstat tractor for more than 3000 hours. So I am not sure of the life exp.
That said most I have seen did not have any problems.

Another thing with HYstat is you will have a higher fuel use. You need to run the engine at a higher RPM to make everything work right.

[bull]

I had a L4610 kubota 4x4 w/ hst tranny was an awesome machine in the mill yard, sucked in the hayfield and on the road.... had to stop to shift range down when pulling a load, was a pain in the A$$...... I really liked that machine for loding logs and bark mulch

After my leg injury" right tib,fib and ankle" the HST was out of the question, I traded that in and went up to an M6800 full cab etc..... With the shuttle shift auto forward and reverser, 8 speed tranny 4high 4low..... probbally the same machine redog is talking about.... I like it for feild work and mill yard work.
As for working in the woods, it no where near as productive. plenty of skidding power but you need larger skid roads,and need to cut back all limbs to 10 feet.... Its too pretty and has wing mirrors, that can easily be ripped off !!

the L25550gst was a great wood machine but to small for the mill yard it also has the auto forward and reverser...

[Dave Shepard]

Reddog, in my experience, that is exactly the advantage of hydrostatic transmissions. I run my Kubota at full rated rpm, almost exclusively unless working in close with people. The advantage is that your loader functions are much faster, and you are also changing directions waaaay quicker than shuttle or manual. This is also an advantage when brush hogging in and around stuff where you are changing directions, you don't have to slow the engine down every time you move the shuttle. In my experience the increased fuel usage is directly related to the amount of work being done. The new HST-II Kubotas have the throttle linked into the pedal, and also have a two speed built into each gear, this also makes up for the rpm issue as it helps cater the rpms and ground speed to the load. Hydros do use more fuel, and have a little less available hp at the wheels, but even in the big tractors there is usually an advantage to using them, like running pto equipment or planting where you want accurate speed control. Heavy tillage is best left to a mechanical drive system, I agree. IH has built many hydro's over 100hp that have gone many thousands of hours before rebuild.

Tom, when you say not to use the transmission as a brake, or to not stop before changing directions, are you talking about shuttle or hydro? Again, this is based on Kubota HST, but you can use it as a brake, and if you choose, you can jam it into reverse at any time. The transmission is protected by overpressure relief valves. Kubota even mentioned it in their advertising propaganda.


Dave

Bull, you snuck your post in ahead of me. :D I wouldn't use my L48 in the field either, it is not geared for farming. Hydro's advantage is in loader work, working in close to buildings, loading stuff where you have to be very precise, and doing anything where you are changing directions all the time. I like being able to set the rpms up so the loader is responsive, and still be able to creep forward and back without being jerky. If one wanted a dual purpose log yard and farming machine, I would look to a higher HP shuttle transmission.

[johnjbc]

I have had 2 Kubotas a L305DT and a L48. The L305DT had Standard shift and doing Loader work was slow but when plowing it did almost as good as the L48 even though it was quite a bit lighter 6000 lb. vs 8000 lb. and had less power 30 HP vs 49 HP. It pulled 2 bottoms well but 3 bottoms would stall it out.
The L48 pulls a 3 bottoms but you have to watch the draft real close or it bogs down and the wheels spin. Last spring I put the 2 bottom on the L48 and it did real good.
Both tractors used about a tank of fuel a day but the L48 holds 13 gal and I think the L305Dt was 8 gal.
Using the loader, the L48 would have 2 or 3 times as much dirt moved, by the end of the day, as the L305DT
I also have a Case 580B with Hydraulic Scuttle but it is entirely different from the Kubota HST. The Case is sort of like the old Power Glide the old Chevrolet's had. It slips a lot. The HST doesn't slip in fact if you let off the pedal its like putting the break on, you stop. Also you get the most power by just touching the pedal as you push it down, you go faster but have less power. Takes a while to get used to it, but then its great.   

Like has been said before:
For Field work get the standard or shuttle
For loader work get the HST.
For woods work get at least 40HP with HST
For mowing get a Lawn Mower or a small Kubota  ( < 20 hp )with HST. Mowing with a big machine is a waste of money.

[Haytrader]

I wonder if this debate/discussion on which type of drive for a tractor is kind of a regional thing. I also wonder if persons from different parts of the country think of the varying sizes of tractors in a different way.
I am, of course, in farm counrty and grew up on tractors. The first one I drove by myself was a 500 Case with a hand clutch. My dad told me where to go, pushed in the clutch, and jumped off. It was in a low gear and when we got to the field he reached up and pulled the clutch. I have driven and owned many tractors since then. I trade more than hay. ;). International made a  hydrostatic drive tractor and it was not good for farming (steady pulling) so they discontinued it.
I have a Kubota M95s now with a two speed ranges and a torque reducer and shuttle shift. With all the options in gears and the shuttle, it seems to be nearly ideal.
When I load hay I do not use the clutch when picking up a bale. I just use the shuttle as soon as I have poked the bale and like someone said, I am now going in reverse as fast as I was going forward. When sitting the bale on the truck I use the clutch.  
I don't really consider the really small ones to be tractors. They are more like overgrown lawn mower with a loader....... ;) Kinda of like calling a pick-up a truck.

[Reddog]

Thinking about it some more.
The only time I have used a Hydrostatic that I thought it was the only way to go, was with a snow blower. No riding the clutch to adjust for the load. And you want the tractor running at full PTO speed.

A brush hog would be the same.

Other than that I drive mine like Haytrader. Set the rpms to 1500 so the hyd work fast. And use the shuttle.