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Colorado pines, use? beetle problem

Started by Brad_bb, January 22, 2008, 12:51:42 PM

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Brad_bb

I recently spoke with my cousin who has a home in Fraser, Co. near Winterpark.  Their property has a ton of pine trees which she calls lodgepole pines.  I'm not sure if that is the actual species name?  Anyway she tells me that out there they have an epidemic of beetle infestation that is killing trees all over the mountains and it's brown everywhere.  She says anywhere that is not sprayed is decimated with brown lodgepole pine.    She says it costs $35 per tree to get them cut and taken away.  Seems like most are ending up as firewood.  I'm into timberframing.  Are these trees good for anything other than firewood, like timber framing or furniture wood?  Are there mills out there milling this stuff?  Is the price very cheap for this wood?  She says it must be with all that is currently being cut and hauled out.  Hauling is probably the biggest cost in the removal I'm sure.  She would rather see her trees(and others) used for better than firewood.  Can anyone shed some light on this?  Any sawers out there want to comment?  I'm not sure if it would be worth hauling back to me in Chicago, but I guess it would depend on it's quality.  Another cousin of mine out there in the same area has a landscaping business and he's taken down a bunch of trees, but they were used for firewood.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Haytrader

Brad,

I am not quite "out there" but am closer than some. I believe there is a species called lodge pole. I have built a lot of feedlot fence with it. Long and straight and not to big of diameter is what I am used to seeing. A 16' might be 6" or 7" on the big end and 4" or 5" on the small end. Surely they get bigger than that though.
Haytrader

Brad_bb

She's telling me that on her property they range from 8" to 20" at the base.    I was thinking a 15-20 incher might be somthing to work with as posts or ?  Are there any mills out there that cut them for boards?  Is the wood good enough for that? 
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

beenthere

Brad
Many tax dollars are going into researching ways to utilize this bug killed Lodgepole pine. And you are right, hauling it out is one of the big expenses. The trees are not big, but make good poles for log cabin wood. And if heat is needed, makes firewood....but not like the denser hardwoods, although pound for pound, gives about the same heat.  These trees make great dimension lumber  .. 2x4 and 2x6..  The economics is just not there, to pay for removal and manufacturing costs.

Our CO member with the USFS may have some good info to add to this, or correct me if I'm wrong  ;D ;D  We also had a writer who was involved, and believe out of Montana. Maybe she will see this too.

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Rocky_Ranger

I believe they are up to 850,000 acres of dead lodgepole in Colorado, and will go higher.  9 out of 10 trees will be dead within 3 - 5 years.  Plenty of stock, no market.  There is a new pellet mill going in west of Frasier, should be in operation soon.  There are some big lodgepole pine dieing on the stump now, more to follow.  There are great heaps and piles of logs just waiting to get cut up for firewood.  They make excellent post and poles, tight rings for lumber too.  Colorado State Forest Service would love to talk to somebody wanting to come in and work some of this up.  USFS would too.  Paying $35 per tree is cheap compared to what I've heard paid, just goes to sow how valuable a lumber market/timber program is...........

Wyoming lodgepole is dieing too, just not as many acres yet - wait a year or so.........
RETIRED!

submarinesailor

I was wondering about what held this beetle in check before now.  Was it cold weather?   Would a normal winter, colder than the last 5, knock them back a little?  Yes, I know it's been cold.  But, on the average I think this winter has been slighter warmer than the 30 year average.

Was wondering out loud.

Bruce

Loghead

First question I would ask is can this wood be brought across state lines ? do they have to be sprayed or debarked?
Bark beetle tracks look cool for log house work but wouldnt most logs also have blue stain as well?
just a thought.
lovin anything handcrafted with logs!!

Rocky_Ranger

Yep, the full of blue stain.  The beetle carries it and that's what kills the trees.  State line?  Good question for CSFS, I doubt Wyoming would care since they are eat up too.  If you haul east or south you'll need plenty of diesel to make that trip.

Why now for the outbreak?  Probably a combination of things; bad drought in 2000 - 2003, mature and over mature trees 'cause we ran out the loggers in the late '80's (we being collective in all sharing the blame), Global warming - maybe even the amount of ultraviolet light getting into the stands of lodgepole, time to aggravate the settlers, etc. 

To kill them with cold would require a cold snap from relative warmth to -40 degree F for a period of two weeks or more - highly unlikely.  They've been here lots longer than man, will be here once we is all gone.....
RETIRED!

deeker

Bradd_bb the lodgepole is a great tree!!!  It is used for furniture wood, fence poles and paneling when it has the blue stain.
I would be interested in it if your not, I am in central utah.  I have cut a lot of it for paneling, the customer has to dry it and  t&g it.  Don't be afraid to try using it.  The blue stain does not weaken the wood, but makes it look kind of like blue denim after several washings.



Kevin Davis
Ruff Cutts
To those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected will never know.  On an empty C-ration box.  Khe-Sahn 1968

Gary_C

I was sure that Rocky Ranger could give you some answers on this lodgepole pine. I actually looked into buying some timber sales in Colorado a few years back. To echo what he said, I had trouble finding markets for the wood. For me to make it work, I would need to have a market for the low grade material like a pulp mill and there is little to be found. The firewood market is flooded with wood. And to haul the logs to markets would not be worthwhile.

In spite of that, I felt there was an opportunity for someone with their own mill to make value added pine products from all that wood that is available. There was an article in the Woodmizer magazine about a guy perhaps in Montana that was doing well by teaming with a logger and cutting right in the woods. However a person would need a base or home of operations and that would take some land which is not easy to find. Plus you would practically have to move and live there.

In your case, if your cousin could provide you with some space to operate, it could work out. I do not know about the shipping all the way back to Illinois though.  ;D
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Furby

Shipping is the deal killer in everything I've looked into the past couple years. :-\
Bio fuel is one use for the low grade, but it still needs to be shipped as well.

J_T

 What part of Co we talking about  ??? Around Rifle and Silt and there about it is another world ??? It is worth a trip summer time that is . There was a fellow that made a few posts on the FF that must of worked that are as he was talking about hauling on some of those roads  ??? Furby take a trip up Uncle Bobs Mountian near Silt there some poles up there  :D :D
Jim Holloway

Brad_bb

Ya'll are only confirming the impression I had initially...That given the hauling costs, and the problem of potentially spreading the beetles or stain, would probably not be worth it.  I'd like to see what that blue stained paneling (I assume he meant T&G boards) looks like.  It might be good if you lived there and wanted to mill on your own all the material you could use for a long time for a low price.  It's still alot of work though to fell them and load them.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Rocky_Ranger

The only hope I see for lower transportation costs is rail service.  One plan I heard of (talking about falling and bucking) called for a certain county to only charge $2.00/tree to off load the logs on site.  If you could provide a place to dump logs for free it would be a windfall to the folks with dead timber.  In other words - they'll give you the trees delivered on site.  Of course the catch is the extreme price of real estate there, probably $20,000/acre on the low end.  You need an uncle or aunt with a ranch.  And, you need to like cold, snow, strange folks, expensive living, and hard work.........
RETIRED!

Rocky_Ranger

Oops, I was off on the infestation.  It grew 500,000 acres last year and is over 1.5 million acres now.  That might include Wyoming too but I doubt it, now they say every lodgepole (but it won't be every lodgepole) will be dead in five years.  One reason it won't be every lodgepole is that earlier we had some forward thinking forestry types who actually MANAGED lodgepole and diversified the age classes - i.e. clearcut some & thinned some.  Now we have some fine lodgepole stands up 1- 20' high, or thinned to about 80 sq feet BA, or thinned to increase the aspen stocking, and they are not showing signes of beetle infestations.
RETIRED!

deeker

Brad_bb, the stain comes for the trees already being dead.  A natural decay, as told to me by the USFS biologist.  It does not spread from tree to tree.  The longer I  let my ponderosa logs sit with the bark on and uncut the more blue stain they have.  They have been cut for a year and half.  The first stain showed up after a full year. As for the "worms" they are dead as soon as the logs are cut up.  They dry out.  Juicy little buggers though....fish might live 'em.  But I use only lures and flies, the occasional "dupont spinner" when required.   A 15 second fuse is best........ 8) 8)  just kidding.

Kevin Davis
Ruff Cutts
To those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected will never know.  On an empty C-ration box.  Khe-Sahn 1968

nsmike

I was at the Log & Timberframe home show, and heard bue stained pine, refered to as denim pine. I have to give who ever thought of that credit for marketing inovation. :D
Mike

Brad_bb

I thought blue stain came from mold.  Mold spores often carried by the beetles.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Ron Scott

This might be of interest to some.

Bark Beetle Task Force Launches Campaign

The Bark Beetle Information Task Force in Routt County, Colo. has launched a "Blue Stain Campaign" to encourage the use of beetle-killed lodgepole pine in house construction.  Formed in 1999, the task force includes members from local, county, state, and federal entities, including the Medicine Bow-Routt National Forests and Thunder Basin National Grassland.  The group is hosting several seminars this year.  The first, on Feb. 21, will be a roundtable of local business people who make or use wood products.  Other public seminars in March, April, and May will include presentations from blue stain experts, researchers, and economists, as well as tours of local businesses using blue stain wood. 
~Ron

tonich

Quote from: Rocky_Ranger on January 23, 2008, 09:11:10 AM
It grew 500,000 acres last year and is over 1.5 million acres now.  That might include Wyoming too but I doubt it, now they say every lodgepole (but it won't be every lodgepole) will be dead in five years.  One reason it won't be every lodgepole is that earlier we had some forward thinking forestry types who actually MANAGED lodgepole and diversified the age classes - i.e. clearcut some & thinned some. 

RR,
Are they all (most of them) artificial plantations?

Rocky_Ranger

The ones that are diversified age classes, for the most part, are naturally regenerated lodgepole.  I've left Colorado (for now) but before I left I/we decided to put a mixture of species back into the regenerated areas (read:clearcuts).  It won't work everywhere but where it does it will help control the spread of beetles in the next generation of forest.  We put in some Doug fir & ponderosa pine "plugs" but the lodgepole naturally regenerates themselves.  We'd cut it out, burn it good and hot and then plant.  Some of these older stands that are 10 - 30 feet high and have been thinned will make it through this outbreak.   I'm hoping to follow those forward thinking folks of 20 years ago who now have produced the only long-term, surviving stands of lodgepole pine for the future.  In fact, I know of no "managed" stands that have been wiped out, maybe some endemic losses but not the whole mountainside as is happening now........
RETIRED!

wldhoss

I live in Idaho and we have plenty bug killed lodgepole pine. In fact I can't recall any area that isn't infected. And it isn't over yet. There is limited interest in logging these areas.  End products are, firewood, fence products and house logs. Its expensive to jump through all the hoops the Forest Service demands. The number of large diameter trees for use as house logs is small. And you have to do something with all of the small stuff.

I have plans to build my own home from bug killed pine and it is a challenge to figure a way to get permission from the FS to harvest the trees that I will need. I can get a pole permit and cut 7" trees for about a $1 each or 9" trees at $1.50. Nothing larger than 9" can I cut. If I buy a firewood permit from the FS I can cut 7" and under and haul it out any length or any larger tree than 7" diameter has to be cut and hauled no longer than 8'. In the old days they would sell "Green Slip Sales".  It was a timber sale based on per tree pricing. You could hunt and search for your trees to fill the sale contract price.  That would be nice to use again.
This beetle mostly kills the larger trees and leaves the 2-3" trees to live on.  I was in the Frasier Valley of  Colorado in December, my brother lives there. There is interest in a pellet fuel plant that will be in operation soon. Most of the logging there is in private land and is more about fuels reduction.  This area, as most all bug killed areas will burn.  The FS is conducting a study of this area,Grand County, to establish a basis to apply to other infected areas of the country. This area has very high land values and large numbers of expensive ski and vacation homes dispersed among the pines.  These homes will not be saved when the fires come. I worked on the Idaho fires last summer. Idaho lost 2 million acres from fire. I got a inside view on how wildland fires are managed.  Over 50% of the FS budget is spent on suppression. And 50% of that money is said to be wasted. Weather is the only event that puts a large fire our. We slow it down and it steer around.  Our fires are usually lightning caused where perhaps dozens of fires start overnight from hundreds of lightning strikes. 
Kind of a long post for my first post, but I wanted you to know whats up.  I enjoy you all, Jim

Rocky_Ranger

There's a very good article in the Leadville Colorado paper this week, the Leadville Chronicle.  You'll have to search and open it up, I believe it's on the front page.  Gives a clue as to how one community is looking to make lemonade out'a lemons........
RETIRED!

Dakota

Here's what it looks like on the wall.


Dakota
Dave Rinker

deeker

Dakota, that looks great!!!  Cannot really tell any difference from ponderosa blue stain.  Is it t&g?  What type of finish did you put on it?  Keep up the great work.

Kevin Davis
Ruff Cutts
To those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected will never know.  On an empty C-ration box.  Khe-Sahn 1968

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