Help deciding what type of mill for me to downsize to, electric?

Kelvin · January 21, 2008, 06:42:02 PM

Hey all,
Well i've been at this for awhile and instead of quiting outright i think i'm going to try to sell some of my pricy equipment and replace it with cheaper stuff and try to pay off some debt. I've been thinking about what to replace my Woodmizer LT-40G25 hyraulic with. I really don't need to be mobile so much, and i'm thinking electric is the way to go so i could enclose the barn and have the torque. I mean would a 10 hp motor saw as well as my kohler 25? I heard about doubling the horse power but gas motors are terrible about responding to torque, wouldn't an electric motor go through knots and what not a whole lot better?

I've built my own mill in the past, and wasn't to fond of all the engineering involved but have thought about having someone build the headblock and i could mount my own 10-15hp electric engine. I will probably have a hard time not having any hydraulics as i'm really use to flipping my cant all the time for grade sawing and i really do a lot of quarter sawing. I can't imagine giving up the width and going with a swing mill and only getting 8" (i know you can double saw, but i can't stand not have log rolling options.) So, i think either i will find a good used electric LT40 or try find some manufacturer who can make me a head i can upgrade in the future. Maybe i can add hydraulics latter. I'm thinking of spending $10k. Maybe if i get a cheap head i will make a real long bed and add a slabber on the other end? Some local interest in slabs. Then i can quarter with slabber and come back with bandmill. Sounds kinda ideal. maybe setup with the edging behind me like woodmizer did with the LT-15 at the last sawmill shootout. Any ideas? Help?
Same thing with my tractor loader. I'm going to try sell and buy something cheaper to pay off more debt while i wait for the business. Maybe cheap skidsteer.

Tom · January 21, 2008, 06:52:17 PM

My personal opinion is that you have the best commercial entry-level mill on the market. It's plusses include the fact that you aren't tied down. Less saw will produce less product and require more labor. Why would you want to do that when you are already committed to making this one work.

Dump the log hauling and contract it. Keep the kiln because you'll never get enough money from a resale at this point to make up for its lack of equity.

Put your money into sales, even if you have to hire a salesman who knows what he is doing. The world should be full of them who are already trained in sales and will work on commission.

Don't spend you money on continually "changing the floor plan" or the factory. That money is wasted and is analagous to painting your house every week.

If you can't make that LT40 profitable, then you should probably downgrade to a hobby business, sell off what you don't want and get a job punching a clock.

Kelvin · January 21, 2008, 07:19:33 PM

tom,
Good ideas to think about. The idea of a used LT40 electric would be i wouldn't sacrafice anything but mobility, but i guess i still take jobs ocassionally. It might be where most of the money is with custom sawing. I'll have to think about these ideas. I just cut back my one helper, as the only money i made went to keeping him alive. Now anything i make is mine, but of course so is all the work! Salesman is a good idea. i've got some people in the works. We'll see what happens.
thanks for input.
KP

bedway · January 22, 2008, 10:08:32 AM

Keep your chin up kelvin! We all encounter those times in life which test what were made of. That said,,,,sure makes the good times seem even better,,,,bedway

flip · January 22, 2008, 10:08:40 AM

I checked on heads a few years ago and Linn lumber was the only one I found to be remotely affordable. He did at the time sell just the head, you make your own track and what not. He would probably work with you on what you need and don't.

bedway · January 22, 2008, 10:10:20 AM

Mine is Linn Lumber!,,bedway

New Inn Wood Man · January 23, 2008, 03:25:17 AM

Hi Kelvin,

I'm with Tom on this one. Changing kit loses so much money. I'd be trying to get the sales to meet payments rather than downsize the payments to meet the sales.

When business is slow for me I get in my car and start talking to people, e mailing them, mailshotting and sending letters with flyers. I'm always amazed about what I find 8) 8).

Good luck and hang in there!

NIWM

ronwood · January 23, 2008, 08:45:57 AM

kelvin,

I agree with Tom

Ron

Dave Shepard · January 23, 2008, 03:11:01 PM

Kelvin, I run two identical Wood Mizers. An LT40G24, and an LT40E15. The 15 HP electric is very comparable to the 24 HP Onan. Of the electric mills I see on the market, they tend to be of the super hydraulic variety, so trading to an electric probably isnt' going to get you into a cheaper mill. I do prefer the electric myself, portable milling isn't particularly feasible around here. I think that the time, effort, and money you want to invest in this switch is going to take you away from profitable endeavors. It is also going to increase your time input per board foot as well.

Dave

Kelvin · January 23, 2008, 08:40:22 PM

thanks for the input guys. Good ideas. I'm just thinking about how i ended up getting my lawn mower for free. I started out with a non working mower out of a friends barn that was falling down. Sold it and got a little better one running and after about 4 trades i had a nice zero turn with no money in it. I guess it could just as easily go the other way.
I do agree i've got to get in my car and go pound the pavement. I'm terrible about this though. My achilies heel.
thanks for the support and not telling me just what i want to hear. You guys are a good bunch.
Kelvin

ErikC · January 23, 2008, 09:44:08 PM

Just to give you a little hope--Things get slow for me sometimes, mostly weather related. Bills are not weather related, so I know your anxiety. :(
Today just before I went off to do a small profitless backhoe job, a truck pulled up my driveway. It was a couple of guys representing a local business from town, wondering if I had some time to do a job for them. They saw an ad I had put out two or three days before. Then somebody in the local diner told them how to get to my house. Don't you love small towns? I went and looked at the log deck, and if I do all they asked it will be about 100,000 bf starting monday! And I have several good jobs already lined up for this summer, so it may be a busy year.
8)
After I start it i'll take some pics and be more detailed because it seems fairly interesting. My point is don't give up, and if you have a day off don't go home--go promote your buisiness somehow. You never know when you'll talk to the right person, or hand out the right flyer to get you busy again. And just about the time you downsize, you'll probably get so busy you have to upsize again. Tools make you money! Advertizing works! Good luck!

Erik

wannabeonetoo · January 25, 2008, 11:06:15 PM

So ; Kelvin , where are you at ?
I don't have a mill but would dearly love one !! Been following your threads and hope you can hang in there.
Keep what you've got and tighten the old belt.(easy for me to say)
I like Toms advice,pretty smart cookie (words of wisdom,voice of experience, yada,yada yada).
Steve

DR Buck · January 29, 2008, 05:46:21 PM

Kelvin

I agree with Tom. I also want to point out that giving up the option of going mobile could cost dearly. Almost all of my sawing is custom sawing at the customer's site. Going mobile makes this possible. I charge slightly less if the customer brings the logs to me and I can saw at my leisure. But, it's a rare thing to find the home owner that has the equipment or ability to bring logs to me for sawing. I've been doing this saw milling part-time for 4 years and have paid down almost all of my debt by being able to take the mill to the job site. Believe me, my debt was up there! New LT40HDG25, DH4000 kiln, 15K capacity 16 ft trailer & knuckle boom loader, flat bed trailer, forks for the tractor loader, couple new chain saws, lots of LogRite stuff and all the consumables such as spare parts and blades. I now owe less than $7K on everything.

You got to market your service!

Also, don't EVER give up hydraulics!

Fla._Deadheader · January 29, 2008, 09:33:07 PM

Kelvin, have you ever looked into woodworking shows ??? That's where buyers and sellers get together. Not sure how to scout them out, but, ask around. Cabinet shops nkow of these shows. So do furniture builders.

Check around. Make some business cards, and GO. ;)

DR Buck · January 29, 2008, 10:26:20 PM

QuoteKelvin, have you ever looked into woodworking shows That's where buyers and sellers get together. Not sure how to scout them out, but, ask around. Cabinet shops nkow of these shows. So do furniture builders.

Check out thewoodworkingshows.com

Brucer · February 03, 2008, 02:52:51 AM

Hey, Kelvin. Marketing is my weak point, too.

When I started sawing part time, I set myself a certain number of hours per week that I'd be "sawing". If I didn't have enough work to fill those hours, then I'd go out and market my service. It wasn't easy to start, but I eventually developed a routine that worked pretty well.

I make sure to carry a pocket full of business cards everywhere I go. Whenever I run into someone I haven't seen for a while, I steer the conversation around to my business. It's not that hard to do -- there's nearly always an opening you can step into. Once the conversation gets onto the sawmill, I give the person 2 (yep, two) business cards. That way they'd have one to give to someone else. I got my first job this way -- 3 weeks before I picked up my mill :D.

I've got so I can strike up a conversation with a stranger and usually get my business in there somehow. I also make it a point to attend any social events in the community. Hardware store celebrated a "grand re-opening" after they moved to a new location -- I was there. Ski hill opened a summer mountain bike course using one of their lifts -- I was there.

I've made friends with the counter people at the local convenience store. Every contractor in town stops for early morning coffee there. I set up a business account at the local hardware store. Every time I buy something for the business, the clerks are automatically reminded that there's someone in town who does custom sawing. The owner of a local welding business wanted to replace some of the deck boards on his trailer -- 1-1/2" x 8". He was in a hurry and I was in the middle of a big job, so I told him to pick up some 2x10's at the lumber yard and I'd resaw them to 8" at the end of the day. I refused to charge him (15 minutes work, come on) and within a week I had 3 referrals from him.

None of this is easy for me. I force myself to do it. I'm not real comfortable doing it, but it's automatic now. Friends tell me I'm pretty slick at it ???.

fencerowphil (Phil L.) · March 18, 2008, 11:12:48 AM

Kelvin,

I noticed that you are still leaning toward the idea of cutting down/back more.
(This observation, of course, is based on your current research into 3-phase on the cheap.)

What I haven't seen you mention is any steps to take advantage of some of the
excellent advice you received in this thread:

Meets and greets with potential customers and
random situations.
Flyers.
Using down time to market portable sawing.
Making the rounds in person with your existing (previous buyer) customers.
Contacting county agents (or your equiv. thereof) in yours and the
adjacent counties/parishes. That goes double for every forester
timber buyer and consultant you can find.
Going to shows is great long-term, but is costly and you need money coming
in, not going out, so you have to be judicious in that area.
Many things that you CAN do, however, don't cost a lot, especially if
you have a computer and a decent printer.
Post cards, self-printed and mailed to all of the above, are also a cheap way to
spread the word. They are cheaper than bulk mail letters. I have even
done folding designs: Use gum glue to attach a bus. card inside and
fold shut with gum glue. Same cost as a post card and I have done it
several times.

These sorts of things will cost you less than your current (pun intended) experiment and
may allow you to survive, and later,... thrive... without letting go of your excellent assortment
of equipment! What if you spend your time doing that, rather than "changing kit" as one of
your advisors recently put it?

Phil Lavender.

DR Buck · March 18, 2008, 11:46:05 AM

Quote from: DR_Buck on January 29, 2008, 10:26:20 PM
QuoteKelvin, have you ever looked into woodworking shows That's where buyers and sellers get together. Not sure how to scout them out, but, ask around. Cabinet shops nkow of these shows. So do furniture builders.

Check out thewoodworkingshows.com

Kelven,

I just spent the last weekend at the Chantilly Wooodworking Show to advertise my milling service. (See my post under Shows and Events) I sold kiln dried lumber to help defray the cost of the show. I priced under the other guys with no-nonsense per board (not board foot) prices and made a ton of cash. I also believe from the questions I was getting my custom milling business is going to explode. This was my first attempt and I believe it was a HUGE success.

fencerowphil (Phil L.) · March 18, 2008, 10:40:59 PM

DR Buck

Now that is a good way to finance a trip to the show!

beav39 · March 19, 2008, 06:06:01 AM

KELVIN,HOW ARE THINGS GOING FOR YOU HAVE YOU MADE ANY NEW DECISIONS?

Nate Surveyor · March 19, 2008, 01:43:42 PM

Kelvin,

Jus let me an the res of de dudes on Forestry Forum know when you go to selling that pricy 'quipment, 'cause de used price of good equipment is about the same as the new price for cheaper stuff!

We all is lookin to upgrade, and are tard of our old stuff!

(Wink)

Just you hang in there. Good advice above.

Nate

Kelvin · March 19, 2008, 07:19:30 PM

Howdy all,
Yeah, i'm looking at buying an older LT-40 electric, so i've posted my LT40G25 2003 model hydraulic mill up for sale at $19,500 Its got the debarker and about 800 hours. Few scratches and bumps but under a shed its whole life.
I too went to a show and rented a booth. It was a local famous wooden boat show and i thought all those craftsman would really be interested in a sawmill that has wood. It was one 10 hour day, and the day before getting ready, the morning setting up displays and the day after unloading. It is now 2 weeks later and i've got zero sales! One call from a guy who wanted one board. This was a wooden canoe and kayak show that had thousands of people come through. I gave out a couple hundred cards, and talked with some folks. Lota work, and not much reward. Guess some things are good for sawmillers and some aren't. Not one boat builder even talked with me about wood out of the 20 or so companies. I think they have their suppliers and don't want to shake "the boat"

Kelvin

Fla._Deadheader · March 19, 2008, 09:01:01 PM

Do you have access to White Cedar, and, did you take any to that show ???

Canoes and Kayaks use Cedar for construction. There is a demand for Cedar Strips for Kayaks and Canoes ???

We also had a "Guest" Book for names and numbers of folks that seemed interested, for call back contact ???

MikeH · March 19, 2008, 11:56:27 PM

Heck Yea 8), Your getting close. I can FEEL IT. I am two years(at least) behind you. Dont give up now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nate Surveyor · March 20, 2008, 10:08:24 AM

Hey, Kelvin

If logs don't pay, theres always legs!

Some folks around here have given up on just making and selling lumber.

One of them has gone to making log cabins, and building them, another has gone into making crafts, to sell.

What I am saying is that there is a way forward here somehow.

Maybe wooden frog legs?

N