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Help me Build a Workshop?

Started by Rizzo, January 14, 2008, 12:44:06 PM

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Rizzo

Hello FF,
Hope everyone had a great weekend!

As promised here, I have a question for y'all. It's probably not a very interesting question by FF standards, but if I can use your answers to start on down the road, it'll be a huge help.

My first major project is to build a workshop. Finally, after what seems like forever, I have the place, the opportunity, and most importantly.....the family CFO's permission! :D I don't have an unlimited budget or a bunch of free labor, but with a good plan and some smart decisions, I believe I have enough of each to make this happen.

The land I'm building on is very rural and in the FL panhandle, so...and trust me on this....I don't need to be concerned with either snow loads or building codes - I've checked with the city and county on both. However, like anybody else, I need to adhere to THE building code - that my shop doesn't crash down on my head! I think more important than snow load will be adequate wind load resistance. Then again, no reason to go too crazy - it's just a shop - we won't be hanging out in there when major weather comes through.

I plan to use local materials and local sawyers as much as possible. There's an old boy in town who regularly saws 8x14 cypress beams 26-30' long, and he says there'll be no problem getting what I need in SYP - which seems like a logical choice to me....but then again, if I had all the answers I wouldn't be asking you folks for help, right?

I sense that some might have an issue with my willingness to use the metal connector construction as illustrated here by Arkansawyer:



Granted, that takes me out of the realm of "true timber framing". Well, the best answer I have is this: I'll do a traditional timber frame at some point, but right now I need to get under a dry roof and be able to secure my tools and machines. The workshop is the means to undertake future projects, not something to take on a life of its own. That make sense?

Ok, for those still reading, let's get down to brass tacks, eh? 8)

Building size: 30x50 -ish. Why? Because there's an existing 6" slab in good condition that I'd like to use if possible. In terms of "enough" room, I don't think smaller than 24x48 is wise.

Inside wall height: 14'. Why? I occassionally need to pull engines and lift stuff off of trailers and my rolling gantry is 12+' high. And I'm tired of always running out of ceiling height!!

Other considerations:
   1. 12x14 roll up door on one end
   2. Metal roofing
   3. Windows along one of the 50' sides

Other than the above, I'm flexible. Roof pitch, bent design, connection method, etc are all things that I can accomodate based on what makes the most sense. Obviously, money saved is money that can be put towards other stuff.

Since we all like pictures, here's a rough sketch of what I'm thinking in terms of defining the interior space:



So, here's where I'd like y'all to jump in....My plan of attack is as follows:

1. Figure out the details of a king post truss along the lines of what Arky posted, but for the 30' span.
2. Size posts and sill plates to match
3. Frame between the "bents" (cut me some slack here!) conventionally

What are the holes in my approach?
Arky, if you're reading this - please let me know if you'd be interested in fabbing the connectors!

I'm really looking forward to what you guys have to add - don't be gentle! ;D
Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Rizzo

sawguy21

Not a very interesting question ??? :o Heck, designing and building a shop is one of life's great pleasures. Welcome aboard, you should get a lot of good discussion going.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

shinnlinger

Rizzo,

If function and saving $ the drive on this thing I would look at an all steel building.  That said I have a barn I built with 8x8 hemlock that I joined with welded up steel plates that was pretty easy to put together compared to my house.


Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Thehardway

If your local sawyer can cut you 14X8 beams in 30' lengths and you have a way to transport them to your sight you have half of the battle won.  Use the 14X8X 30 for the bottom chord. 2-14X8X18' timbers for the top chords and possibly a 8"X10" for the kingpost?  Need to check the enginnering numbers.

The design below uses minimal joinery.  It is no chisel required as everything can be cut with a saw.  The design uses 6'wide Steel straps and through bolts.  It is a pretty old design and has withstood quite a bit of time and abuse.  A common variation of this eliminated the wood member of the kingpost and used a steel "kingrod".

8' spacing would allow you to use common dimension lumber for sheathing etc.

If you are going to use steel and bolts I would consider the straps rather than just plates. They do not depend so much on tightening of the bolts for optimum strength and accommodate expansion/shrinkage much better in my opinion.

Not sure how you would fasten this to sill/post/plate.  Maybe more steel straps?

Some post to bottom chord braces would help a lot with the span and possibly allow a smaller timber and still allow you a 14' clearance at the center.  Just a couple ideas.



Doesn't show real well but the black lines at the rafter foot to tie connection are thru- bolts or threaded rod.
Norwood LM2000 24HP w/28' bed, Hudson Oscar 18" 32' bed, Woodmaster 718 planer,  Kubota L185D, Stihl 029, Husqvarna 550XP

sawguy21

The VW miss a turn at the top of the hill ???
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

thecfarm

OK shinnlinger I'll bite.What's up with the VW bus on top of your shed?
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

logwalker

I spanned 32' with a self-engineered truss using 4x8 16' for the lower chord. 4x6 18 for the top chord and 4x6 6' for the king and 4x6 8' for the webs. The material is #2 or btr Doug Fir. The lower chord is in tension, the king is in tension the webs are compression and top chords are in compression. Bolted together with skookum 1/4" plates and lots of 1/2" bolts. Set on 8' centers with 2x6 purlins on top @ 2' on center. You can easily insulate the ceiling with this arrangement. Snowload here is 25lbs and dead load is 10lbs per square foot but I think I am over that. Could be too optimistic but I think I am ok. Maybe somebody here will chime in on that.

 

Edit: Top chords are 20' long for a 3' overhang.
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

logwalker

Adding the pic of the main lower tie plate:

Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

peter nap

I'm gonna steal the thread for a second if I may.

Logwalker, two questions.....

How did you insulate that ceiling?
and
Did you paint the heads of those lag screws after you put them up?

Just one more.
Are the plates the only things holding them together or are they tenoned also?

logwalker

The plates are 1/4" steel weldments I made downstairs. No tenons were used. The metal roofing is applied directly to the purlins and then I had a foam contractor apply 3" of the isocyanate foam to the metal. I then put r-13 fiberglass over that for about r-26 total. Money was tight at the time. Today I would lay sheathing down first. Joe

Edit: I sprayed the bolts with semi-gloss black and then after they were up I made a paper template of the outline and moved it from plate to plate and gave them a touch-up.
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

Tim L

cfarm,

         That VW bus thing has got me curious too !
Do the best you can and don't look back

Don P

I don't wanna hear you built it in there and the door was too small  :D

This website has an easy to use program for determining truss forces,
http://www.jhu.edu/~virtlab/bridge/truss.htm

The NDS has design values for for bolted connections. For something like logwalker's I'm assuming the connection is in double shear (plate on two sides) the connection is stronger than in single shear. For members thicker than 3-1/2" the minimum bolt they list is 5/8". For SYP here's some numbers to apply to the force results you get from the program above to get bolt counts.
SYP, 7-1/2" thick, 2 side plates of 1/4"
5/8"-load parallel to grain 2510 lbs/ bolt. Perp to grain 1510 lbs/bolt
3/4"-3480,2000
7/8"-4630,2570
1"-5960,3180
If using 1/2" bolts you wouldn't be wrong to use the 3-1/2" thick numbers, they would be a little conservative on an 8" timber, 1720, 1100

Bolt spacing,
Edges,
Loading parallel to grain-1.5 bolt diameters, all these are minimums
Loading perp to grain-loaded edge 4D, unloaded edge 1.5D

End distances,
Compression 2D-4D
Tension 3.5D-7D

Spacing in a row 3D

Spacing between rows,
Loaded parallel to grain 1.5D
Perp-when length of fastener in main member/D <=2 then 2.5D
l/D2-6 then (5l/10D)/8  ::) (interpolate, average, use common sense  ;) :))
l/D>6 then 5D

Never put more than 5" of wood between outermost rows of fasteners in rigid connections, it'll risk a split when things dry more, that goes for lags in decks, bolts in plates and a whole lotta applications.
there's pages of exceptions and chapters in other texts on fabrication, joint excentricity, etc but this is the high spots. The wood handbook (free download) has some more. I think cruising the APA's tech publications online will turn up more on joint design also. Generally the biggest bear is getting the heeljoint connection. Also think about the rotation of joints as the thing flexes, design joints and place fasteners so that they don't induce splitting when members move under load or shrinkage.

logwalker

Hey Don P, thanks for the website on truss design. You reminded me too that I used 3/4" bolts. Plates on both sides and all-thread cut to size, dressed, and nutted each side. Just looked better than bolts. Lots of good advice there. When I built 5 years ago did not have nearly as much info available. I am going to do it again and might use Timberlinx for the connector. I have a wonderful old Dewalt 22" radial to make the miter cuts. Joe
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

shinnlinger


There isn't as much of a story as people want.  Basically there is cool veiw from the barn and one buddy had a bus w/ a bad motor and another had a crane and said "if you ever need to use it.."  so why not?

I mean what else do you use a crane for?  Oh and I also have zero zoning or inspection or anything like that.  When I put a steeple on my shop in Oregon it was like an act of congress.  It has held ip to 90 mph gusts despite having all the aerodyanmic features of a brick.  Sleep s 4 and a heck of a place to watch a sunset.
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Dave Shepard

Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Dave Shepard

Would that be the VW "Belvedere" model? ;) :D ;D


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Don P

That brings up one of those pesky exceptions. If you use allthread its a good idea to drop down a size on those design numbers to get about the equivalent of solid "root" diameter steel.

tsodak

Not to hijack the thread, (and then blatantly doing so) I am dealing with almost the same thoughts and questions. Main differences being I have a snow load, and would like to be able to do it without cutting anything longer than 18 feet. that is all I ma set up for really.  I really like logwalkers setup, and I think I could duplicate it fairly easily. Reading with bated breath....

Tom

PC-Urban-Sawyer

Quote from: tsodak on January 16, 2008, 11:28:10 AM
....

Reading with bated breath....

Tom

Tom

You'd better spit these worms out. They can make for a mess later if you don't  ;D (don't ask me how I know... I'm a retired US Navy Chief, who has been full initiated...)




DanG

Hey Rizzo, wherebouts in NW Fl are you?  There are a number of Forumites in this area, and we're always up for meeting a new member. ;D
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Don P

I sketched a truss like Rizzo and logwalker described and figured it spaced 10' on center. I then added gravity loads for his location, 10 pounds per square foot, no snow, and came up with the heeljoint needing to resist about 2250 lbs in compression and the center tie resisting about 1950 lbs of tension. Then I added 50 lbs per square foot to the 10 psf dead load for SoDak.  The heel joint went up to about 13,500 lbs, tension at the midlap splice went up to about 11,700 lbs. The member sizes and connections would be pretty different for those conditions.

This has some good pics of group fastener failure modes and comments;
http://www.awc.org/pdf/wdfAppendixE.pdf

This file shows some typical do's and don't in post and beam connections, some of the last ones in the file are some of the most important for our situation;
https://www.aitc-glulam.org/shopcart/Pdf/aitc_104_2003.pdf

Rizzo

You guys are awesome!!! 8) 8) 8)

Thanks for all of the thoughts and input so far. I'm away from home unexpectedly this week on a work job, but I'm testing the hospitality of the hotel front desk as I type this cause I'm printing out this thread to read more closely. Thanks also to everyone who's sent messages - I'll respond to everybody individually once I get back home Monday.

Again, thanks a bunch - you guys have already made a huge impact on this project!

Rizzo


tsodak

Wow, those numbers are huge differneces. I need to do more research to see exactly what though.... :)

Thanks.

Tom

sbishop

i think my next garage will be a TF workshop  ;)

Sbishop

Rizzo

OK....you guys have given me some great ideas and insight. What I'm trying to do now is "put it down on paper" (actually, Google sketch-up). That might take a little while... :-[

I'm also kinda wondering, when using this type of hybrid construction, how the walls/posts are best tied to the sill and how the rafters are tied to the top plate/posts/whatever. Is there a preferred method?

I'll stop asking newbie questions now... :-X :D

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