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pine or cedar shingle siding?

Started by krusty, January 08, 2008, 10:00:45 PM

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krusty

Hi folks,

Am thinking about getting the WM shingle attachment.....thoughts? I know cedar is more beneficial as a shingle but if I am just doing some siding that will age naturally....is pine really a bad choice? I am using pine board and batten in some sectinos of my house but am certainly open to comments.....

:P

jason.weir

Short answer - I'd use what you have or can get cheaply.  Cedar is certainly more rot resistant than pine but also costs considerably more and I've heard its harder to saw.

Soap Box Rant - In my area (NH) there were\are still lots of buildings sided with pine or hemlock shingles.

Remember using a 16" shingle with a 4" reveal there is 4 layers of wood between the weather and the sheathing.

We once removed what looked like completely worn out shingles from the back side of a barn, the layers underneath and even the back side of the outside layer looked like they were brand new.  If you want to add extra life dip each shingle in some linseed oil before you nail it up and then follow it up as needed.

My opinion is that wood shingles might be the longest lasting wood siding product you can use.  Even the most horrible looking worn out 100+ year old wood shingles still keep out the rain and wind.  Show me another wood siding product that you can install with no preservative\paint\stain\whatever and leave it in out in New England's weather for 100 years and have it still work.

On my house I put up cedar clap boards, but only because I didn't have the time to spend sawing and installing the shingles.  Any future outbuildings will have shingles as I'll have my Lane shingle mill up and running by spring.

-Jason
Chichester, NH
Anyone else sick of seeing vinyl siding going up everywhere? 

bandmiller2

Krusty,I was told by the old timer I bought my shingle mill from "the man that puts up a pine shingle will never have to replace it".The only problem I know of is they have a tendency to turn dark I would use some sort of stain or preserver on them.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

krusty

thanks for the feedback....I just need to plan a day now when I can go pick it up!

We have had about 7' of snow this winter and it is almost all gone with this warm weather....and now my pine is out in the open to access  8)

Problem is my log dude can't get me cedar until the ground freezes....more global warming! (if you ever have lived in Canada)

kderby

Krusty, I support the direction you are headed.  I have a local wood-mizer that bought the shingle attachement now it is in a rusted heap.  He found it to be painfully slow way to produce shingles.  Also, do you have enough large diamteter material?  Quartersawn shingles are superior. If you have a yard full of ten inch tops, you'll spend the rest of your life making narrow shingles that still cup.  harumph! >:(

Back to the good news, I would like to see more credit given to modern finishing technology.  In the past, pine shingles had a shorter service life but with modern finishes that utility should more than double.  Great-grandfather did not have premium finishes available at the local mercantile, we do. 


Amen Jason 8) 8) 8)

For a little added background, shakes (split) then shingles (milled) were the advances in siding technology.  Milled clapboards came later.  A common building technique was to use clapboards on the front of the house as they look more finished with tight and clean lines.  Rich folk could afford to clapboard the whole house.  Shingles were used for the side, back and for outbuildings.  It takes a better tree to make a clapboard so they are more expensive per square foot of coverage.  For utility, shingles are a superb alternative.  They are forgiving to install on old buildings and simply work.

Vinyl siding is a cheap compromise.  From the highway it looks common but nice enough.  Up close it is still plastic wrap for a house....yuk!

Joel Eisner

I cut my shingles without an attachment on my band mill ... no taper though.  I get the random sized cant or cants (side by side if narrow) and using a framers square strike a line every 16" on the cant(s).  Ill chain saw almost all the way through the cant(s) with about an inch or so of wood remaining holding the blanks together.  Then it is just a matter of cutting the shingles and they zip right off the mill and are stacked on pallets in bundles.

I used Jassco water based Terminate and it gives them a good brown look and can be stained later.

I have cut poplar and SYP shingles.
The saga of our timberframe experience continues at boothemountain.blogspot.com.

jason.weir

QuoteA common building technique was to use clapboards on the front of the house as they look more finished with tight and clean lines

In this area we use to see the same thing, I always attributed it to the fact that the poor (cheap) yankee farmer only replaced the siding that absolutely needed it and if it could not be seen from the road than it did not need to be replaced.

As I said before I put cedar clap boards up for speed, but under my farmers porch I used pine shingles - natural no stain, it really adds to the look. 

My father restored an old post and beam barn with clap boards on the front and sides with shingles on the back just as it was when he started. I'll see if I can dig up some pictures.

I can't imagine sawing shingles on a band saw - I would think your time would be better spent finding someone with an older shingle mill that can saw 50-60 shingles a minute.

This is the only way to saw shingles (not my machine but similiar)

http://ckshingle.blogspot.com/2007/01/blog-post.html

I'll be working on my shingle mill this weekend.  Come spring time anyone in the are that needs shingles let me know as I'll be looking to put the machine through its paces.

-Jason

krusty

Hummmm interesting video on the shingle mill yet scary! Though I do not expect to make a living at shingles on it, I have some good 24" pine logs I would get alot of plain saw shingle out of.....understanding quartered would be perfect.

bandmiller2

Shingle making goes right along with logging.I would get 2 or 3 logs from a pine then cut shingle blocks from the tops,their is about 16" between the nodes on most white pines.Shingle making is far too  labor intensive and boreing for modern folks.I modified the feed cog wheels on my chase machine 3/4" butts really look nice on a building.I found that freashly cut pine a bear to handle and cut ,pitch everywhere.Found it best to wait till the pitch just starts to turn white,but not dry, cut better green.If you edge the shingles as in the vidio when they dry they are tapered thin top shrinks more.I would cut and make a square chimminey stack ,alt. butt and top,then when dry square up on a table saw.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

cantcutter

I wouldn't spend the money on a shingle jig. If you know a welder or can weld yourself it would be nothing to make one. All they are is a frame that clamps to the log bed and holds the cant. It shims one side up so you get an angle and you slice a shingle or clapboard off, then it lays flat and you make the next pass for the next clapboard. Then it repeats. I haven't ever seen one up close, but from what I can tell from pictures it is all manual.

As far as clapboards go you can make them on the mill without the jig, just lay a cedar shake on each cross member and lay the cant on top. The jig is handy when making shingles because it can hold multiple short pieces for each pass.

krusty

One more question......how should I store these shingles after I cut them and before I put them up?

thecfarm

I would be a little leary of the white pine I have on a roof that is shaded.If the building is out in the sun all day,I don't see a problem.I would like to split some red oak and use them on a small cabin for the wife.But this will be in the woods.If not too time comsuming I would like to repalce the chicken coop with a small cabin too.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

jason.weir

Krusty,

put them in bundles like the ones you buy at the lumber yard\home depot.

This allows you to not only stack them neatly it will tell you how much coverage you have.

I've used a home made jig with a bottle jack to compress them and use metal strapping to hold the bundle together.

If you don't get them bundled together they will warp and cup.

I'm sure someone here can tell you how big and how many layers a standard bundle has.

My quick math says that with a 4" reveal a bundle 20" wide with 30 layers (11.25" tall with a 3/8 shingle) will give you right around 1/3 of a square.  Please somebody check my math.

Here is a picture of a Lane Shingle Packer - I'd sure like to stumble across one of these..



-Jason

cptbob06

I posted this before on how I achieved a cedar shingle look. I cut 3/8 inch thick cedar board at a random width and cut them to 11" length. They overlap perfect with a 5" reveal. Under the first row I put a piece of beveled cedar siding planed down to about 1/2" as a starter course. You can't tell any difference between my siding and regular shingles. This is a great way to get something out of the slabs when sawing cedar. I just start pulling the thin flitches aside until the log can be cut into lumber. Before you know it you have a pickup load of stuff for shingles that normally would have gone into the slab pile. It is a little labor intensive cutting the stuff to length but just check out HD prices for cedar shakes. I like free much better.

solidwoods

-This is the only way to saw shingles -

Thats slap a*** crazy.
Thats is a horror video.
jim mckee
Ret. US Army
Kasco II B Band mill
Woodworking since 83
I mill & kiln dry lumber, build custom furniture, artworks, flooring, etc.
If you mill, you'll be interested in some of my work in one way or another.
We ship from our showroom.
N. Central TN.

solidwoods

I'm thinking of puting shingles on a roof.
What would be the optimal # of layers, length, thickness?

By layers I mean the laying pattern creates a number of layers (think I saw 4 layers posted here)

And isn"t more layers also a place for moisture to stay and not dry out?

I'm thinking of diping them in Outdoor deck preservative (Mckloskey, I use it on outdoor furniture I build).

1x6 nailers, spaceing (depends on shingle length, 1 nailer top/mid/bottom?) ?

jim
Ret. US Army
Kasco II B Band mill
Woodworking since 83
I mill & kiln dry lumber, build custom furniture, artworks, flooring, etc.
If you mill, you'll be interested in some of my work in one way or another.
We ship from our showroom.
N. Central TN.

SwampDonkey

Used to be a shingle mill just 3 miles down the road here. I think the only one near here now is up in Clair, above Grand Falls.

I don't see them used on houses now, everyone has this vinyl siding craze. The worst stuff to stick on a building. The only reason they use it is because it's rot resistant, in the cold it is brittle. Once in awhile you see some shingles on an out building or shack.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

jason.weir

Jim,

I'd argue that that shingle mill is no more dangerous than your band mill.  Both will, without conscience lop off any part you put in the wrong place at the wrong time.  I believe there are people who may not pay enough attention and are more prone to accident than others.

If a machine bites me it would be my fault, not the machines's.

As for me I don't think I'd ever put wood shingles on the roof..

-Jason


 

bandmiller2

When your taking shingles off a shingle mill your doing it off the side of the blade,most have a pocket they drop into.Most operators take them off just as they are freed from the block,just polishes your finger nails.The real danger is in clamping the blocks in the carrage your fingers are in line with the blade.The shipping lever on a lane mill has a metal guard that gets between your fingers and the blade.OSHA will fudge their rompers watching a shingle crew. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

woodbowl

Quote from: Joel Eisner on January 09, 2008, 10:05:57 AM
I cut my shingles without an attachment on my band mill ... no taper though.  I get the random sized cant or cants (side by side if narrow) and using a framers square strike a line every 16" on the cant(s).  Ill chain saw almost all the way through the cant(s) with about an inch or so of wood remaining holding the blanks together.  Then it is just a matter of cutting the shingles and they zip right off the mill and are stacked on pallets in bundles.

Now that sounds like the no fuss way to make shingles. Got a few q's for anybody.

1- Is 3/8" a good thickness? Is 1/4" too thin or 1/2" too thick?

2- A starter strip is used on the first run, then everything lays flat (?) except           
    the top section, which rest on the top edge. When laying "no taper" shingles, is
    there a  disadvantage as opposed to tapered? (it seems the standard is the
    tapered type, why?)

3- Several lengths and reveal seem to be favored, 16"L X 4"R, 11"L X 5"R ect. What is a reasonable length and overlap? (not too much, not too little, not too bulky, not too time consuming)

4- Shingle siding VS shingle roofing. Differences?

5- Minimal joint to joint distance?
Full time custom sawing at the customers site since 1995.  WoodMizer LT40 Super Hyd.

jason.weir

QuoteIs 3/8" a good thickness? Is 1/4" too thin or 1/2" too thick?

My Lane Mill came with 4 different gear selections to make 5/16, 3/8 and 1/2 inch shingles as well as non-tapered pieces from 1/8-1" thick.  Generally the thicker the better (lasts longer) but uses more wood.  I think 3/8 is standard today.

QuoteWhen laying "no taper" shingles, is there a  disadvantage as opposed to tapered? (it seems the standard is the tapered type, why?)

Other than tapered shingles use less wood, they guarantee the shingle sits flat on the shingle underneath it regardless of reveal.  With a non tapered shingle I think you are stuck with 1/2 the length as a reveal otherwise the top of the previous shingle acts as a pivot point.  Hope you understand what I'm trying to describe here.

QuoteSeveral lengths and reveal seem to be favored, 16"L X 4"R, 11"L X 5"R ect. What is a reasonable length and overlap?

I think I read somewhere that you should not reveal more than 1/3 of the total length.  Plus with less reveal you can use lower quality shingles.  For example with a 16" shingle and a 4" reveal you can use shingles with knots in the upper 12" without seeing any of them.  The bigger the reveal the better quality shingles you need.  I usually saw 16" shingles, and when cutting the bolts I try to place the knots right in the middle, that way I don't have any knots showing in the reveal.

QuoteShingle siding VS shingle roofing. Differences?

None that I know of.  I would guess the wider shingle the better on the roof, means less joints, less chance to leak.

QuoteMinimal joint to joint distance?

I only keep 3" or bigger shingles but thats just a personal preference.  When cutting them on the shingle mill you are guaranteed to have a good selection of random widths from 3" up to the diameter of your bolt.

-Jason

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