Band rolling

bandmiller2 · January 04, 2008, 07:52:45 AM

Is band rolling worth doing on the narrow thin bands we use.Have any of you made your own roller?? thanks Frank C.

pineywoods · January 04, 2008, 10:50:23 AM

You can do the same thing with a hammer and an anvil. Lay the band flat on the anvil and hammer on the back half of it, work your way all the way around the band. A roller is easier and probably does a neater job. The idea is to stretch the back side of the band.

customsawyer · January 04, 2008, 07:05:51 PM

I never had any trouble out of my 1 1/4" blades but when I went to the 1 1/2" blades on the LT70 I started seeing some trouble so I got a roller than.

deeker · January 20, 2008, 11:05:01 PM

I would like to find a band roller made by cooks sawmill mfg. And maybe copy it sorta leagally or buy one. I am a very firm believer in rolling the blades when they start to rise in the cut. They do correct the problem completely. Yes I do set the teeth correctly, and the blade still gets rolled to fix the rising cut.

Kevin Davis
Ruff Cutts

Jeff · January 20, 2008, 11:06:18 PM

A real good place would be from Cook Saw. ;)

bandmiller2 · January 21, 2008, 07:49:02 AM

Cook's are nice people to deal with,I have their cats claw sharpener very pleased,Tim spent alot of time on the phone with me never rushed.Question when a band goes around a crowned wheel or wheel with a round profile belt if its too tight could that put a cup in the band and make it climb??

deeker · January 27, 2008, 08:17:27 PM

Bandmiller2, I would call cooks and ask that question. It is a very good one.

Kevin Davis
Ruff Cutts

Percy · January 27, 2008, 11:44:33 PM

I spoke with a fella on the phone from northern Alberta that has an LT70 62hp and he swears by the band roller from Cooks. The production figures he claimed were more than impressive. He said that using a band roller makes super acurrate toothsetting unnecessary. He said "As long as its close." Im going to purchase one in the next while and Ill let you know if my results are as good as his...heh..

mike_van · January 28, 2008, 05:41:48 PM

deeker, just a thought I had - I've bought Red Streaks from Cooks for years now, maybe a hundred of them? I've never had one yet that didn't cut perfect right out of the box. I run a flat 24" wheel, maybe there's too much crown on your tires?

deeker · January 28, 2008, 07:09:51 PM

Mike_van, good point. I own a Lumbermate LM2000 wth a 23hp briggs and scrap iron. The wheels have flat topped v-belts on and running them. Not much of a crown. When I sent them back to cooks to be rolled (fresh from the box) it was noticed by Marcie on my order the blades were not rolled. I thought that to be a bit odd. As I thought they rolled all blades. When my blades came back, they were flat to start with. No complaints from me about their services.

Kevin Davis
Ruff Cutts

gmmills · January 28, 2008, 10:35:44 PM

Percy,

I can second the info that you received from Alberta. I 've been rolling blades for a number of years now. I wouldn't be without my Cook's Band roller. The flatness of the 1 1/2" blade has to be maintained for them to saw at peak performance. The wider the blade that is used the more important flatness becomes. Most 1 1/4" blades, when new, are usually acceptable in flatness. The 1 1/2" blades, that we use, body curvature can be a real issue. Too much curvature on the roller side, low in the middle when checked with a straight edge, will cause the blade to rise. Too much on the bottom of the blade,high in the middle of the blade where it contacts the roller, the blade will dive in the cut.

Don't assume just because the blade is new the curvature,flatness, is correct. I check each new blade for proper curvature before it ever gets put on the mill. The last two boxes of 1 1/2" blades that I have purchased had the wrong curvature. They were all high in the center on the roller side. Had to roll every one of them to push the high center down. Been using them for over a week sawing frozen Black Cherry. Productive straight cuts.

logwalker · January 29, 2008, 02:22:34 AM

Do the bands stay flat for a good while after you roll them and is it easy to get good results with the roller? Joe

Dana · January 29, 2008, 09:41:10 AM

Is this band rolling a new concept? ??? I have been on the forum for a while and never heard of this tull a few days ago. It's not mentioned in my Woodmizer manual either. Wouldn't simply rolling the blade inside out every blade sharpening accomplish the same thing?

WH_Conley · January 29, 2008, 09:57:25 AM

That would put the teeth on the mill backwards.

Tom · January 29, 2008, 11:35:00 AM

Rolling thin kerf band blades is a concept derived by Tim Cook of Cook's saw. Some folks buy into it and some folks don't.

The reason that bands cup is because they run on a curved surface. They cup bad enough to affect use when the band wheel is much smaller than the band. If you run 1 1/2 bands on a bandwheel designed for 1 1/4 bands, you are tempting cup.

Bands are produced with a "memory" or a "set". they are coiled by the bulk manufcturer and welded to size by retailer. If the retailer turns the band inside out to weld it, he is fighting the "memory" of the band. Using it or "rolling" it is the only way to make it conform. It has to do with the direction the teeth run on your saw and whether the curvature of the band remains in the same configuration as presented to the retailer by the manufacturer. That is why many retailers will ask you which direction your saw runs.

There are a lot of things will affect a "new" band that might require maintenance. The most common is rough handling. It bends teeth, kinks bands and dulls tips.

Bands are manufactured in large rolls These rolls may be stacked tooth to back or tooth to tooth into stacks weighing many hundreds of pounds. Teeth tips that contact another roll stand a good chance of being dulled.

Bands that are dropped on concrete or other abrasives stand a chance of being harmed. That is why it is in our best interest to learn to deal with the opening and closing of coiled bands and pay attention to the bands travel path on the mill. It is also reason to treat sharpened bands with a modicum of care.

I won't make judgement on Tim's Roller, accept to say that there are many of us who manage quite well on standardly produced bands without making changes to the blade or performing some VooDoo on our mill. It's a fact that some mills perform better with a certain manufacturer's band. That doesn't mean that all mills will do the same.

I've done some experimentation with Lenox Woodmaster C's on my old Baker 3638. Brian told me that they had found that Lenox worked better, but I just had to try my Simonds Red Streaks. What I found was that the Lenox worked on the Baker and the Simonds worked on the Wood Mizer Lt40 and I got worse results if I swapped them. It had to do with the length of the bands and their stiffness. I found that Brian was right, but I had to prove it to myself.

At the time, Red Streaks were close to matching Wood Mizer bands in flexibility. I 've heard of peope having great success with "monkey" Munkforsagger and other brands. I'd be the last to say that their bands are no good, I would question that the needed special attention.

Brian_Rhoad · January 29, 2008, 01:23:19 PM

I know for a fact that blades do get a crown across them from use. I have checked blades with a straight edge and can see the crown. This comes fro the blade running on crowned wheels or on belts that are not as wide as the blade.
I think the reason this seems to be a problem now is that blades are lasting longer than they did 5-10 years ago. The first thin kerf blades were "throw aways". When they got dull you replaced the blade and didn't resharpen them.
Todays blades last longer for several reasons. The blade material is better. Sawmills are designed better to make the blades last longer and to cut better. We have learned how to maintain the mills and blades better with better equipment.
I haven't rolled any blades yet, but I do think it can make a difference. I have a sheet metal bead roller I am going to modify to roll my blades. I bought it from Harbor Freight for less than $150. I need to make a guide and a stand for it but I think it will work to flatten the blades.
Our thin kerf mills are just smaller versions of the large bandmills. To get the most life out the blades we need to treat them like the big mills treat theirs.

Dana · January 29, 2008, 01:25:09 PM

Quote from: WH_Conley on January 29, 2008, 09:57:25 AM
That would put the teeth on the mill backwards.

I didn't think about that. :

Now that would be a problem wouldn't it. ;D

WH_Conley · January 29, 2008, 02:53:49 PM

Naah, just a little smoke and does not cut very well, don't ask me how I know. ;)

york · January 30, 2008, 08:51:48 AM

well now,after reading,all of this thread,looks like i will stay with 1-1/4" bands

Brad_S. · January 30, 2008, 09:46:13 AM

Don't let this thread stop you from upgrading. The 1 1/2" is far superior to the 1 1/4". It cuts faster, straighter and lasts longer in my experience. I've never had a 1 1/2" band dive or rise that I couldn't find the cause of. It has been either a set problem, sharpening problem or guide problem. You can experience the same problems with 1 1/4". As you can see, I'm one of the one's who's not sold on the rolling issue.

york · January 30, 2008, 09:58:07 AM

Brad,you have a TH?.....same here,never had any bands dive or rise in a cut....unless they got dull...tried them all-like Lenox....is that your mill,sits off 14a ?

woodbowl · January 30, 2008, 10:31:17 AM

Quote from: york on January 30, 2008, 09:58:07 AM
Brad,you have a TH?.....same here,never had any bands dive or rise in a cut....unless they got dull...tried them all-like Lenox....is that your mill,sits off 14a ?

How much hp do you have on your TH Brad? I fergit. I've got a Kohler 25 command and I can't run 1 1/2" near as well as 1 1/4". (drag) I've always believed that I am just a few HP away from really being able to have a big difference in the cutting rate.

Brad_S. · January 30, 2008, 11:59:38 AM

York,
It's not me, I'm up near Rochester. I'm not sure who's mill is off of 14A but a number of Mennonites have TH's, so I imagine it's one of them.

Woodbowl,
I have a 30hp diesel and it's hands down better than the 25hp gas engine I had on my first mill, but I am going to get even more horsepower on my next mill. You can never have enough. ;D (Can't decide on which brand to switch too though. I really liked Timber Harvesters. It's now between Baker and a non-FF sponsor.) I would like to run thicker blades (.055) when cutting spruce, and the 30 horse drags, probably like you experience with the 1.5".

Dana · February 01, 2008, 11:29:30 AM

Brad I have to say it, just to get you going, think Orange. ;D

Brad_S. · February 01, 2008, 10:14:18 PM

smiley_fused_bomb

:D :D :D :D :D ;)

Actually, they're getting there. Remote operation. Chain turners. They're coming around. Now if they would just get rid of all those DC electric motors and assure me that all their people are like Marty and Sparks and not like the clowns at the NE office, I'd consider.

Back to the subject at hand, if WM, the largest selling mill worldwide, doesn't see the need to market rollers, that speaks volumes IMO.