Going Full Time

[McCormack]

Hi Folks,
I have been sawing part time with my manual mill here in Gilmanton New Hampshire for about 5 years now and am looking into going full time starting in may. I am planing on selling the manual and getting a hydraulic mill to increase production capability. I have been able to pick up work off and on with the manual without much effort or advertising. Can anyone give me any ideas on how to research the maket for mobile sawmilling demand in my area? I want to make sure that the mill I purchase will be well matched to the amount of work I will be able to pick up.

Any advise?

Thanks!
Jeff

[Jeff]

Man McCormack, It sure seems that if you have been doing it part time there in that area, that that would be about the best way to research it. I'd dare say if your considering going at it full time, then you must already have a pretty good clue or you wouldn't even consider it.

[McCormack]

Thanks Jeff, I guess I have a little bit of an idea I can keep the manual mill busy part time cutting about 1000 bf per month on average. I just hope if I buy an LT50 or LT70 I will be able to keep the thing busy enough.   

[logwalker]

Well my observation is this:  a 1000 bf a month is a long way from the approx. 2000 bf a day that those mills are easily capable of. Add to that your area may be heading into a slowdown due to hardwood prices. I would sharpen my pencil and look long and hard before giving up my day job. How many other mills do you know of in the area? I am not trying to discourage you, just playing the devils advocate. Joe

[Bibbyman]

Are you planning to work alone?  Or do you plan to have crew?  Or do you plan to have the customer provide help?  Are you planning to only custom mobile saw?

The reasons I ask is that an LT50 or LT70 will well outperform one person. (Can you move and stack 3,000 bf of lumber in a day plus offbear and saw?)  An LT40 standard hydraulic can saw fast enough to wear one person out.  The LT40 Super adds faster hydraulics and other more powerful features including larger engine options and can work two people right into the ground when run at optimum speed.

Between the LT50 and LT70 - I'd go for the LT50 if I were going to do mobile sawing.  It has nearly all the features and power as the LT70 but is easier and quicker to set up. 

If I planned to do a LOT of sawing in one place and max performance was needed then the LT70 would edge out the LT50 due to its better head design and larger band wheels. 

The LT70 is better adapted to work with out feed systems in a pure production setting with power conveyers, sorters, edgers, etc. than the LT40 or LT50.  But if you're mobile sawing with no support equipment,  it won't be that important.

How much money will it take for you to make a living?  (You don't need to answer that here.)   I ask this because we went from two professional income jobs to running our sawmill business full time.  We don't make near as much income as our office jobs would be providing but we've made a life style decision to live on less money.

I'm with Jeff on the area research question.  Looks like you know you have had success on getting word of mouth business.  That's a good sign.  You may go find your local state forestry agent and talk to him/her.  They may have some assessment as to the potential needs and markets in the area.

Do you have a good wife with a good day job and benefits?   If the answer is yes, SHOOT YEA! Go for it! 

[york]

Jeff,i was milling logs,when times were good....and i kept my day job...firefighter,city of Ithaca,ny and thank God i did....You are only 39 and must have kids....Keep your job....Buy the 50,anyhow...Bert

[Captain]

Jeff, I've been sawing here in MA part time for several years.  I've been sawing about 5-6MBF per month on weekends, and in the summertime we build small outbuildings as well. 

I've been hesitant to make the move to full time without a job with benefits, as I have a wife and son to worry about.  So I took a big move and compledted Paramedic School last year and am on my way to a full time firefighter/paramedic job here in the near future.  At that time, my "side business" will become a more full time venture, just with an irregular schedule, and the full time job with the big company will go away. 

It is a tough decision as I like my full time job now, and really enjoy what I do.  The pay scale is tough, and there is really nowhere for me to go there.  I've always had more of an entrepreneur spirit anyhow.  There are a lot of subcontracting options related to my current full time job that can supplement as well.  I guess what I am saying is that I'm afraid of relying on the sawmill(  in a scenario where I am sawing for others ) solely for my income, and also afraid that the physical nature and pace of the work will break my body before its time.....BTW, we're almost the same age.

I commend you for your spirit, and I'll try to help you in any way that I can with questions. 

Captain

[bandmiller2]

Mac,the quickest way to ruin something you love to do, is to make a full time business out of it.It takes a good job to support a sawmill,or a farm for that matter.Keep the security,buy the mill you want,and augment your income with it.Sorry to be a wet blanket,good luck wichever.Frank C.

[Brad_S.]

Some good advice so far.
Mills around here are folding up left and right. I'm still standing, but just barely and I don't know for how long. You mention you cut 1000 boardfeet a month, you need to cut that much before lunch 5 or 6 days a week to make it. It's hard work, doesn't matter if it's 15° or 95° outside, you need to be at it. IMO, if you have any sort of decent job right now, stay at it and ramp up your side milling jobs. Admittedly, my head is in a bad place at the moment, but I must say I rue the day I chose sawmilling as a full time job.
Still, if you want to try it, here is just a small list of some things to think about: What do you want to primarily offer, sawn lumber for sale or custom sawing others logs? What type of product are you going to offer, hardwoods or softwood construction lumber. You can't be everything to everybody. Niche sawing or specializing in one type of product or service is a better way to go. Can you get a reliable supply of logs at a decent price? How are other mills in your area doing? How many other millers are portable and what are they charging? Can you live on the types of wages you see your competitors making? Do you have a waiting list of people you need to saw for or are you currently caught up? If your weekends are booked for the next two months, maybe you do have enough demand in your area to make it. Best of luck.

[Mr Mom]

Could you go down to like four days a week at your day job and saw the others??
That way you could keep your job and benifits.

Thanks Alot Mr Mom

[slidecreekdan]

Lots of good advice here Jeff.
  Its getting harder to make a living at just milling. Pencil it out.
  Mills are not cheep, but with enough work, well!!!!!!!!!!
  You will make the right choice.
                Good Luck

[customsawyer]

I have run both the LT70 and the LT40 and I would have to agree with Bibbyman on this one. If you have lots of support equipment (tractor with FEL, skidsteer loader, or back-hoe for moving the logs, edger, at least 2 men that like to get worked into the ground and at least 4000 bf of wood to cut per day) than you will be better off with the LT40. With out all this extra equipment than you will have a hard time taking advantage of the LT70 higher out put. I am not up to speed with the LT50 so I can't say about it.
I would not want to discourage any one from the dream of doing it on there own but this whole country is going into hard times and this might not be the best time to go out on that limb as some one might cut it off. smiley_chop

[ErikC]

    Here in Northern CA we are seeing the same economy slowdown. It will affect a sawmill buisiness of any sort.
But a couple things I've noticed are these:
  Custom sawing is usually a good value for the customer, and in harder times this may attract some who just thought it was to much work compared to a lumberyard. Farmers, resorts, etc. who rely on thier facilities always provide work as well. So if it's mobile sawing you do, there may still be lots of work.
  If you do good work at a fair price you will be the last one in buisiness, even in the worst recession.

  That being said, have you built such a reputation yet? I'm sure you're working on it, but now's not the time to build it. I am completely self employed, my wife works part time. We 
make a good living, but all our eggs aren't in one basket. I have the the milling buisiness, operate heavy equipment, and shoe horses. Can you find a similar combination that works well for you? Believe me, you will need them all sooner or later.

Whatever you do go at it with a good attitude, work hard, and you will succeed!

Erik

[dail_h]

   Custom sawing market dried up here a year ago,completely dead. That's why my mill is in WV. Would've lost it if it hadn't been for oldest's daughter's boss.He's really good to saw for,but I've still lost some flexibility. Spent most of the morning with lender trying to save forklift. Still not sure how that's going to play out.Got skinned pretty good by three reclaimed lumber dealers in the last year diddn't help either.
   What I'm really trying to say is,as long as the income from sawing is extra,it looks much better than it does when that's your entire income.Would I do It again? BOY YOU BETCHA!!! I'll work this out somehow and ,go on,just kinda tough now. Just don't load yourself up too heavy,and be ready to roll with the flow. Try really hard to hang onto some cushion cash for unexpected stuff.

[Kelvin]

firefighters & paramedics go good with part time job as you have blocks of time when you are off.  If you have bennies and make enough with the one job, you shouldn't be too bad upgrading the mill.  I would however find a good used one to start with.  Once you have outrown it you will know better what you need, and most of the depreciation will be gone.  There seems to be a lot of mills on "sawmill exchange" website for sale.  Kinda makes you wonder why, but you never know.  Some will do better when the economy slows down than others. 

I've been trying to sell lumber which is very hard and requires a lot of schmucking around with people i don't like.  People who have to chop you down to make their business work.  I don't like this aspect.  Sawing for others makes the most, and easiest money for me, but its also stressful.  You are off site and have to rely on them for certain unknowns, log handeling, lumber off bearing you name it.  It gets to me a bit.  I've never advertised really and insurance is a bear.  i just spent $2,400 on insurance which doesn't cover me sawing off site, and i told them i make about $8-$10k per year with the woodworking.  It will all pile up on you if you start a business, especially if you need employees.  To make the same as $40k at an office job you might have to gross over $100k if you have employees and lots of capital overhead.  I've got a friend who works 80 hrs a week, has 6-12 employees doing landscape work.  he grosses about $400k, and keeps less than $40k a year.  Hes got a fleet of equipment and it eats everything up.  I've been trying to run my sawmill part time for 5 years and full time for one year.  This year is the worst so far, a lot of my customers have disappeared from the internet sales which is was really relying on.  Don't put all your eggs in one basket is my motto now!!!  I've made $3 an hour or so for the last entire year.  I've got lots of lumber so i may still sell it some day, but as of yet i haven't decided to just give it away to get rid of it.  I will sell off all my equipment and still sell my lumber slowly over time.  I'm not working for peanuts and then giving it away.

I still believe this business is a bit like farming.  You invest tons of money, work real hard, lots of hours in the hopes of just making it.  I don't know who still decides to go into farming but in either business, sawmilling or farming you need connections to survive.  People with connections survive no matter what.  Doing it all on your own from the ground up is a world of work and risk.  I'll let you know how it goes in 6 mons or so.
Good luck, and remember my biggest advice on this...  buy used and as small as you can get by with.  LT40 with one or 2 people is plenty.
KP

[WH_Conley]

I went full time about 3 years ago, working more hours for less money. It is not easy. I don't just mean the work either.

[bull]

Diversify, If your going fulltime you need to have multipule avenues of income.
I sell (Bark mulch and Ground slabwood ) (firewood Bulk and Bagged) Compost,Manure,Sawdust,Fruit and Vegetables,tractor work,snowplowing and more !!!!
I left a fulltime job of twelve year with great benefits.... All shift work and after twenty year of shift work splits, 2nd and 3rd shift enough was enough and Im not looking back !!!

Lumber has slowed, firewood was good, bark mulch was great, We opened a farm stand and went to a farmers market on fridays with three acres of vegetable and will expand to five acres next year. also have been building sheds,Bird feeders and dog houses. 

Yes i am a farmer, Here in Massachusetts the law say's all acts of lumbering and forestry is agriculture so, guess what we are all farmers

[MikeH]

 Wow, :)great post all! I have a lt70 and it is just as fast to set up as the lt50,but I dont have remote set-up with it, that is what takes longer. That being said, knowing what I do now. I think I would buy the lt50 :. As far as full time sawmilling, I can only agree with the others.
There is a small(circle) sawmill down the road that does 10,000bdft. a day and they are struggling.
I make good money custom sawing at their site, but that is about 3 times a month if I'm lucky and that might make a payment. My fulltime job supports my milling habits.

[Firebass]

McCormack,  I too respect your spirit and wish you good luck.   I have ran a successfull small buisness machine shop for 10 years now.   I just have one word "OVERHEAD" if you have too much, you'll never survive the slow times and they will happen. 

Firebass

[Brucer]

If you're planning to work alone and you want to buy new, I'd suggest a standard LT40 hydraulic. If you find you can't keep up with the demand you'll have no trouble selling it -- that's gotta be one of the easiest mill to sell second hand. Figure on 10% depreciation after one year. I don't know what the figures are like for other brands, but the basic hydraulic mill seems to be a big re-seller.

If you buy a bigger mill to get more production, you're going to find you're making more lumber -- and staging more logs, and making more slabs, and doing more edging, and shoveling more sawdust. All that "extra" stuff eats into your sawing time unless you've got someone else to do it for you.

I've increased the production on my hydraulic mill be adding some inexpensive home-made material handling equipment. Anything that speeds up that non-revenue work gives you more capacity for a lot less dollars.

Mind you, if you simply "want" an LT70 with a remote station and you've got the bucks, go for it. There's lots of folks around here who have more $$ invested in snowmobiles, ATV's, ski-boats, dirt bikes, and trailers to haul them all than an LT70 would cost ;D.

[DanG]

McCormack, you've been getting some good advice here, but I'll throw in my 2¢W anyway.  Look at yourself and be sure of just what your motivation is.  Is it that you want to saw lumber for a living, or just want to get out of your current situation.  Either one is enough reason to make the move, but you have to be brutally honest with yourself.  If you can hang on to your current job for a while longer, it might be best to go ahead and upgrade the mill before you quit.  That way you can get it paid down a bit before you make the big move.  Once you've done that, turn up the juice big time on your part-time business.  If you can only saw on Saturday, you need to be turning out 1500-2000 bf consistently EVERY Saturday before you even consider quitting the day job.  You can restack, clean up, sharpen blades and do your maintenance after work the rest of the week.

Also, take a close look at your lifestyle.  Are you going to be able to cut back when the work just ain't there?  How's your Wife's income/benefits?  How big is your mortgage.  Are your vehicles paid for?  How much do you owe on other things?  What skills and assets do you have to help supplement your business?(see Bull's post for suggestions )  How are you at self-motivation?  If you're gonna saw at home, what support equipment do you have?

Do you plan to have employees?  If so, treat them very, very well.  Make sure they are happier with you than they have ever been.  I was talking to a buddy yesterday who has a lawn service down in the Miami area.  He has a Haitian(legal) guy working for him.  He pays him $12/hr while the competition is paying $8, and he pays him for vacation.  The guy is always there, always on time, and works his fanny off.  He's a happy camper.

Another thing to consider is, what will you do if the milling business just doesn't work out?  Are you in a field where you can step right back in if you need to?  If you have the mill at least partially paid for, it will be easier to step out of it if you have to.  That goes back to the first thing I suggested. ;)

Read this whole thread several times and see how many red flags pop up.  If there ain't too many, then go for it, but go wisely.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Jeff

Welcome to the Forum!

Basically, it's all been said.  All I am doing is doing a summary which agrees with what I have been seeing in my area.  Several have stopped full-time sawing for three basic reasons:  1) They got older, so the physicality of the work was no longer suitable; 2) Consistent work was not there for portable work; 3)  Benefits of working for the other guy were just too attractive.

I will stick to three words as well, with a few comments on each:

A)  Value-added
            I have noticed, repeatedly, that sawing a little means much more, if you take
            that product, dry it, mold it, or, best of all, completely convert that wood into
            the final end product.
B)  Overhead
            I am just echoing here, but it is well worth the "ink."  Right now everything I
            use in my part time milling operation is paid for.  My only help is part time and
            procured only when I need it.  If I am not sawing, the only overhead I have is
            rust and wood that may be getting wet or bug eaten.
C)  Scale
            The scale of an operation makes all the difference.  Matching your techniques;
            your equipment; your man-power; your markets and supply - everything -
            links to the scale of your operation.  Advertising?  Yes, that too.  For example,
            word of mouth is always best. The next contender is free public interest stories
            about you in the newspaper.  When you try to click up in scale and go from a
            couple thousand bd. ft. to full time, you face the temptation to build scale more quickly
            by means of wasted advertising dollars.  It is better to invest your person in the form
            of hand shakes, meet-'n'-greets, and getting to know the who's-who's.

My situation is simple:  My piano work is very flexible.  I can schedule this higher-dollar
work to fit around the sawing.  On the other hand, I have to keep in mind that there is no way
that my sawdust addiction can pay like the piano work, unless a long, long series of good connections,
excellent decisions, and favorable happenstance could justify a major up-tick in my scale.  I don't
see that around my area, so the mix of work I have now shall continue.

Why not tune pianos full time, and let that be it?

Cause I am truly addicted to sawdust!  AMEN!

[Cedarman]

To add to the great advice given I will add a few things.
You must become expert at running a business.
You must become an expert at marketing, at selling, at research, at public relations, at maintenance, etc.

If you take a look at all the info on this forum, you will see that there is a huge amount of education that one must have to make sawmilling a successful business.
A little thing like phone manners can make or break a business.
This is just one tiny thing among the thousands of details that make a business thrive over others.
Sawmillers are usually one or two man shows and the more knowledge that you can obtain over time and put into practice  the more success there will be.

As I tell my new sawyers,  I can have you sawing cedar by the end of today, you will still be learning to saw cedar for years.  Making lumber is the easy part, getting the greatest economic value from every log in the most efficient manner possible is the hard part.

Just some general philosophy. 

[ARKANSAWYER]

   I know very little about this whole deal.  I have only been doing it for 7 years, have sawn over 2 million bdft on a LT40 and just $300k in the hole right now.   Life is good and I a loving it!
   Go to SAWMILL EXCHANGE and look at all the millls for sale.  See if any are in your area.  Get the info and call and see what the deal was.  You will soon learn whey the quite or went under.
   Now as for sawing if you are going solo then a LT40HDD34 would be all the mill you need with a debarker and 50 or so blades and some LogRite cant hooks.  (get the ARKY special)  Will need a good truck to drag it around and 4x4 is prefered.
  But what has been left out is if you saw 2000 bdft a day that is 10,000 lbs  that must be moved and stacked, then add in about 4,000 lbs of slabs.   I know because I have done it for weeks in and weeks out and moving 35 tons a week by hand is not a job for the weak (Thank GOD for grits) or crippled.
  But I say go for it because you are still young and can recover if all else fails.  ( Misery loves company)

[Brucer]

... and when things are going bad (as they will), and you're feeling down (which you will), and you're wondering why on earth you got into this DanG fool business, something will happen to lift your spirits ... and you'll KNOW this is why you do this .

Might be a red-tailed hawk drifting over the mill; might be a deer poking its head through the bushes; might be a rainbow spread across the horizon (nice bit of propaganda, Arky ;D).

[Captain]

Arkansawyer's picture is great, but notice the sawmill is not at the END of the rainbow.... ;D

Captain

[pineywoods]

Please heed what Arky says about moving 7 tons of stuff every day. Equipment to move all that stuff is just as important as a sawmill. The mill won't likley wear you out and bust up your back, but moving all that stuff surely will.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  You are right Captian! but, the lumber was stacked at the ends of the rainbow and that is where the coin is.

   

  This here was just a days sawing solo.  Got a few logs yet to go and them 2x8x16' get a bet heavy after the first hundard or so.  But the next day you will be back and sawing because word of mouth is what makes or breaks you in this business and you got to finish the job to get paid.

[ErikC]

The points about moving all that material are sure true. I have all the log moving chores covered with equipment. There are few days I lay hand on a peavy or cant hook.

  But the boards still need stacked!!!!! No way around it, you do a lot of hevy lifting when you get around milling. Maybe the points made about getting equipment to support the mill need as much consideration as the mill itself. I know I worked without a tractor on site a few years. I strained my back quite a bit. Now If the backhoe doesn't go, I don't go. It's not optional because saving someone a couple dollars is not woth losing a few days work.
  Besides, it's more fun when the tactors on the job! Don't forget about the extra income the right piece of support equipment can provide. Once my backhoe is on the property, more work for it often arises. It might help in a tough season.

Good luck
Erik

[Lenny_M]

McCormack
Lot of good advice above.
I`m a bit south of you in Weare. I`ve been custom milling part time for 6 years, This year we did 8-10 Mbf per month, May - December. Lot of work with a LT40g25 manual deck mill.
The best advertising I have used in our area is the UNH County extention,Division of Forest and Lands,Division of Agr,Foods and Markets, and of course THE FORESTRY FORUM.
Are you regerstered with Division of forest and lands? If not I recomend doing so, $17 a year, For some reason I get a ckeck  from the state for $17 In sept. ;D
It would be a good idea the become a regerstered Grader (N.H. Native Lumber Law) thats the Div. of agr,Foods and markets. Good for 5 years and No charge. May be done online now, Not sure.
UNH County extention would be the State Foresters, They Keep a list of mills they pass on to landowners wanting to mill lumber.You can also advertise on their website.
  A local reliable source for blades also will help.The guy i use is in Charlestown N.H. He picks up and delivers on fridays in my area. No charge for dilivery.
  If you want I could dig up some contact #`s for you.
                                                                        Good Luck
                                                                                      Lenny

[LOGDOG]

Just wanted to mention that I was looking around on Sawmill Exchange this evening and noticed an unusually large number of new listings of sawmills and equipment for sale. I've been getting emails from IRS auctions nearly everyday for wood businesses going out of business. All the other equipment mags are full of new listings too. I think it would serve an individual well to read between the lines when all this is going on and maybe question the idea of whether this is the best time to take a leap or not. Personally I would lean towards not. Just my two cents.

LOGDOG

[ErikC]

Or take a small leap that doesn't mean payments. Then ramp up to full time and see how it goes. It's not easy being self employed, but most that are would find it hard to go back.....
Like always look before you leap though

Erik

[crowder888]

October of '07 I decided that I would try to make a go of it full time.  I had no previous experience running a mill and really didn't know anything about the lumber business at all.  Kinda stupid don't you think?  But I had spent nearly every evening for the previous 3 months reading absolutely everything I could get my hands on, talking to loggers, talking to buyers, looking for good equipment, figuring out a business plan, etc...  I finally jumped in head first and bought a used LT70, an old beat up rough terrain forklift, and a 24' flatbed truck to deliver the lumber.  I have loved every minute of it and have no regrets.  I did find out that the more I learned about the business, the more I learned I didn't know.  I was well aware of the current market conditions before I got in but decided that I had made enough contacts that I could make this work. 

I haven't had any trouble selling the wood I've sawn (knock on...well...wood) and in fact have had buyers calling me asking for more and different species.  My biggest problem right now is finding a consistent supply of quality logs at a decent price.  Although I may have solved that problem with the about 20 loggers I was on the phone with this afternoon.   I probably picked about the worst time of the year to try to start this venture as I'm finding out how the temperature can really slow down production and make everything twice as hard as it should be. 

I don't do much custom sawing...in fact I've only done one job.  It was terrible.  I got to the site and the 4 logs were in the back yard of the house at the bottom of a hill.  I figured I'd pull the mill right over to them, load em up, and be gone in an hour or so.  Well the lady of the house was so particular about her yard she didn't want any vehicles on the grass which was under 6 inches of snow.  To make a long story short I ended up dragging two of the smaller logs out of the yard by hand and had to use a 4 wheeler to get the other 2.  When I only charged an extra $50 for moving the logs they got mad and yelled at me for tearing up the yard.  Thankfully they paid and I walked away almost happy. 

Sorry for the long post but I thought I'd share a story of someone that made the jump to full time and has so far had good luck with it.  One thing that I'm glad I did was finding my markets (several of them) before I ever bought a piece of equipment.  A little bit of homework goes a long way in my opinion.

[Furby]

Welcome crowder888!  8)
Would you mind updating your profile to include a rough location.
Just a state is ok.

[dad2nine]

Reading... Learning... Great Thread

[DanG]

Crowder888, that was about the best first post from a new member I have seen on this Forum. 8) 8)  Good on ya for taking the bull by the horns and gettin' r done!  I'm glad you hooked up with us. 8)

[ljmathias]

DanG is right about a first post- and welcome.  You all know where the expression "taking the bull by the horns" comes from?  Me neither, but I do know this: once you've got him, it's tough to let go...

Lj

[Cedarman]

Great post Crowder888.
Keep letting us know how things are going, the good, the bad, the ugly.
The thing that stuck out at me was the amount of research and reading you did before jumping in.

Not all custom jobs will go that way.
Women more than men do not seem to understand that sawing and logging can be tough on the terrain.  They have unreasonable expectations.
I almost always declined when a women was in charge, except when they were heavily involved with working the farm and woods.  Now they were good to work with.

Now may be a perfectly good time to jump into the business.  Equipment may never be more plentiful and cheap.  Hit the auctions.

The timber business goes in cycles.  You don't know where the bottom is, but there is one.  Then you will be ready to ride to the crest, but you won't know the crest until you are sliding down the backside.

Study, study, study.

[cantcutter]

I am a part timer, but it is my only job. If it wasn't for tree services wanting stuff milled and selling me logs on the cheap I wouldn't be making it. I am sure glad I don't have mill payments every month.

I am a transplant to Kentucky from Lyndonville Vermont and I know that I couldn't make it up there. Too many guys running portables in that area. I know a couple of people up that way who do it full time and do well, but they have contracts keeping them busy. One mills hardwoods out for a lumber yard almost non-stop. He has a 6 month waiting list for other work because of it, but without the contract he couldn't stay busy enough.

another guy I know is stationary and does pretty well; we doesn't like to work much though so his mill sits more than anything. He buys all of his logs and does no custom work.