Jobs vs Economy

[scgargoyle]

Here in West Central FL, manufacturing is way off. There are very few jobs in the 'Trades' section of the paper. Construction is even worse, with a huge back-log of unsold houses on the market. Health care is always strong here, due to the elderly population. There are plenty of low-paying jobs.... if you speak Spanish. I am a tool maker working for a plastic molding company, and we are in the fight of our lives from foreign competition. I would leave the trade in a minute, but I'm a little old (54) to learn a new trade. The problem is, you start at the bottom, both pay-wise, and getting stuck with all the grunt work. I ain't got near as much grunt as I used to! Once this country loses it's manufacturing capability (and it will) China will be free to take over (and they want to). We're probably watching the decline of the American Empire- soon it will be someone else's turn. Read your history, then get ready to live it.

[ely]

sad but true, we are losing the age rapidly of the folks that fought the germans when they were a great power. soon there will be no one who remembers the past and the words in the history books will be words without any meaning.

[tcsmpsi]

This is not a very good area to give any real indicator of jobs/economy.  There seem to be a few jobs available, but most pay notably below poverty level. 

I see the actual 'available jobs' in different areas as perhaps a bit less enthusiastic than it may appear. 

Ultimately, the building of businesses is a speculative  endeavor, which ultimately depends on consumer participation.  Consumer participation is more and more dependent on credit, which is more and more a volatile industry.

Though an "employment rate" may look good, what is the employment pay scale as compared to the notably increasing cost of living, and specifically to the area in question?

What I use as a 'scale', are those folks at the counters who tell me of increasing numbers of declined credit cards and checks, smaller fuel purchases and more of those made with coins. 

For the "average citizen" who is responsible for the brunt of the tax burden, and depended upon to be the standing consumer, there are a lot of factors which are accumulating like clouds for a thunderstorm.

So, what is an economy based upon? 

Someone made mention of illegals being rather abundant.  I did a little research on my on some years ago, and with a little 'rithmatic came up with a pretty astronomical figure for how much money is sent to these folks' home country every week.  Most of this not being taxed the full extent as the average American worker.   So, with that much money, untaxed, leaving the USA every week....how can the economy possibly be "good"?

[Ron Wenrich]

I'm in South central PA.  We have a very stable employer in state government, and throw in a few military bases.  We also have a very large teaching hospital.  That means that a good deal of the population isn't going to be going into a recession any time soon (unless the tax money dries up).

But, we do have some problems with manufacturing.  Hershey chocolate has shipped a ton of jobs to Mexico, including 1,000 in Hershey.  Seems they want to expand Hershey park at the expense of manufacturing jobs.

Next to my house is a firm that puts bodies on the back of delivery trucks.  I use them as a guage of how bad the economy is doing.  If their business is down, then there aren't as many deliveries.  Their business is down.  No fall/winter increase in business this year, they didn't hire any temps, they had a layoff, and now an extended vacation over the holidays.  First time ever.  They have also eliminated all overtime. 

My wife works in the insurance industry.  Their company is starting to outsource jobs to India.  She's not overly concerned about her job, but the Indians are doing jobs similar to hers at half the rate, and she's underpaid by industry standards.  Beginning of a trend?  Also, there are more people who are working remote.  Less need for offices?

What I heard last night is that we are having sector recessions.  Housing and auto manufacturing are down.  However, medical, transportation, energy and a few others have no problems.  Seems to be the same everywhere.

The wild card right now is the credit industry.  Its causing some major headaches in Europe, who is probably our best trading partner.  They have been talking about a slowdown over there.  When the credit dries up or people actually start to pay down their credit, consumption will probably slow down.  There are a lot of families that are struggling on 2 incomes.  What happens if one of them lose their job?

[logwalker]

Someone made mention of illegals being rather abundant.  I did a little research on my on some years ago, and with a little 'rithmatic came up with a pretty astronomical figure for how much money is sent to these folks' home country every week.  Most of this not being taxed the full extent as the average American worker.   So, with that much money, untaxed, leaving the USA every week....how can the economy possibly be "good"?

I don't think that amount would compare to the 40/50 Billion trade deficit every month, mainly to China. And look at the c--p we are importing. Most of it will be useless in a year or two. Like Bull said, we need to bring it home...NOW.

[tcsmpsi]

It has been probably 6 or 7 yrs ago, but one Fiesta market in the Houston area that I was aware of, actually kept up with the money orders sold that had high probability of being sent to a home country, and they had over a million a month going out.  That's just one market.  And, that's straight US dollars directly leaving the country, that could easily add to billions a month nationwide.

Just talking to a few of the places which sell money orders in this small town, even more aware of the regular money order purchases leaving the country add up to tens of thousands a week, from a small town (pop. 5,680 on the city limit signs).

All I know is simple calculations.  But, seems a pretty significant drain to me.

[Polly]

  :(   north ky and north east ky all factories that employed the lower medium encome people have moved out the state it appears to me is trying to make money with the county courts the biggest business in each county is the judical system  i know you have to have law and order but when you write tickets to drag people to court not to punish them but just to take their money to support the court house people to me it seams rediculas  sorry about my sour attidud :( :(

[bull]

Quit whinning about immigrants taking the jobs... Jamacians, Brazilians, Ecquadorians, can work circles around the average american today and if they need more money they work more jobs!!
If we made the dam teenager work those jobs and get off their fat butts we could solve many problems.... The unions aren't helping the employee any more, they're filling managements pockets. The lunk headed union guy who goes on strike for weeks and get no pay although he has paid dues for 20 years "well he's real schmart" Both my brothers are union men !!
Get rid of cost of living raises and go to merrit only incentives, do a good job your pay increases.
If you suck at what you do " good buy " no loafers allowed !!!! My youngest brother is a foreman and all I hear is him squawking about not being able to get rid of the NON Performing slouches on the job they are protected by the union but the guy who produces twice as much work isn't recognized....

Someone mentioned " If we lose manufacturing we're all done" !! Question for ya, What's left??
We here on the Forum are burried deep in minority and are laughed at by the average american today for our thoughts !!!  Let us stand up and be heard, we are at war and this could be our contribution in saving this Country........ LETS PUT THE BOOT IN A FEW REARENDS !!!! 
The fight on our own soil started before we sent troops over seas!!
We should clean our own house before we try cleaning someone elses!!!!
Lets start with the Whitehouse!!!

Wow I'm on a rant........ Next

[DanG]

What is a "poverty line" anyway?  It used to be where you stood to get a bowl of soup, didn't it?  Somehow, folks have become convinced that if you have less than 4 bedrooms and 3 baths,  a TV that measures less than 52", or less than 3 SUVs in the driveway, you're living in poverty.  I grew up in a small 3br/1bath house with 7 people living in it.  We had one car, 1 radio and sometimes a 17" b&w TV.  We weren't considered to be living in poverty because my Daddy had a job, we had food and a roof over our heads.

As a nation, we are living way above our means.  While I'm in favor of people having a nice life, I don't feel that it is necessary for the typical blue collar worker to send his kids to private school or vacation in Hawaii, or have a second home at the beach.  One of the main reasons we are losing ground is that workers in other countries don't have these things and don't expect to.  They are happy to enjoy a more modest lifestyle...more akin to what we had 50 years ago.  Maybe in another 50 years, the shoe will be on the other foot.  There are indications that a swing may already be underway.  Japanese companies are coming to the US because labor is cheaper, and guess what?  50 years ago "Made in Japan" suffered the exact same derision that "Made in China" is going through right now.  Is China next in line to see their hard-earned wealth outbound to the next Mecca of cheap labor and shoddy goods?

[flip]

I may not see it in my lifetime but the Chinese people will eventually have enough of working for the scrappola wages they are now.  When their political system changes so will the days of sub cheap goods.  If overseas goods prices rise by 25% or more they won't be as attractive  as they are now to our Walmartian buying habbits.

We as a country have thrown ourselves into a hyper polictial correctness that has been the root of a lot of our issues.  Government is part of the issue and you can blame the whitehouse or the outhouse, doesn't matter.  One person does not control the entire sociopoliticoeconomicoenviro mess we've put ourselves into. 

Immigration is an issue, everyone from the pres. down to local governments know it, problem is they can't find a solution that is politically correct and no one's feelings get hurt.  Is it killing our economy, probably not.  There  may be a small impact due to the fact funds leave the country and are not being recirculated but there is no way to really know.

We need to quit selling our own oil to Japan and other countries, we need to start drilling.  Ethanol is not the answer, the byproducts and cost to make are too prohibitive.  Start by making fuel a non issue, quit begging the guys in the mid east for go juice.  If they want to sell it we need to be in the position to tell them what we are willing to give, not what they will sell it for.  Make other countries pay out the nose for the grains and food products we produce, what we don't sell we need to make single malt with ;)

Tarriff the heck out of goods that are going out of the country and comming in, so what if we have to pay a little more, we will live and not be on the life support of Asia and have to deal with substandard junk they send back to us.  Solidify the dollar and quit allowing the banks to loan people the stupid god awlful amounts they think they need to keep up with the family next door. 

Ok. I'm done. >:(

   

[Ron Wenrich]

It has already started, DanG.  China is outsourcing to Vietnam.  Their labor is even cheaper.

I'm not buying into the rant that kids are lazy.  That rant has come down on every generation that has existed.  My dad said about my generation.  Just a bunch of hippies that liked to party (which was true ;D).  And guess what, we turned out to be a bunch of hardworkers.  We're even putting in longer workdays than my dad's generation.  We're also abundantly more productive.  

Kids will become productive when they have to.  If they're sitting at home and sponging off of the parents, why is it the kids' fault?  If they're out of school, then they should be paying rent.  They should also be paying all their bills.  They'll learn pretty quick how to get a job and keep one.  

I always try to think back to what I was doing at that time in my life.  I was employed, not out of necessity, but because I like it.  I also remember how much things cost back then, and what the income level was.  When I went to college, a year's tuition was $450.   Now, its over $12,000 to the same college.  Minimum wage back then was $1.25, now its $6.25.  Minimum wage is up 500%, while school tuition is up over 2600%.  What's wrong with this picture?

And since Flip has posted while I was writing, I'm not that big on tariffs.  We export logs and some of our lumber goes by export.  Tariff that?  Do you really think we can drill our way out of our oil dependency?  We're already the #3 oil producing country in the world (last I checked).  Of course, maybe I'm just being politically correct.   ;D

[thedeeredude]

When I went to college, a year's tuition was $450.

  dang thats a good deal.  I cant afford penn state nowadays.  If only I could play a sport Id get in for free >:(

[scgargoyle]

Semi-related- I read today that SC is going to pay Workmen's Comp to illegals injured on the job- and a lot of other states already do! I simply cannot figure out why people who are BREAKING IN to our country are getting full benefits!

[flip]

Because some political think tank thought it would be mean if we excuded them, they might feel left out :

[SwampDonkey]

I'm with Dang. I just live a simple, quiet life and what I have is paid for and I didn't acquire it all in one lump sum accept for land and house which was an inheritance. As my grand parents said, the younger folks think they need everything all at once while their generation accumulated things as they were able to pay cash for it. Now there have been a few things I have not paid in cash, but they were paid for eventually before taking on unnecessary debt. I don't travel much and really no desire to unless I can drive there in a day. It costs too much to fly now when you don't live in big cities. I remember it cost $800 to fly from Prince Rupert to Vancouver and the flight across the country was only $600 from there.  :

I'd rather be in my shop in the winter months instead of sitting some place away from home paying rent wishing I was back home in my shop.  :D

[saddletramp]

Howdy Furby. I aint arguin with you but the trucking jobs around here are a plenty. Every out fit is hiring. Even the farmers are looking for hands with a cdl. Most farmers now have at least one semi. Must be the location, middle Kansas. Local paper has lots of jobs for truckers, nurses, used car salesmen, teachers and the rest of fast food jobs that go with a college town. If you want to be a REAL chicken hauler give me a call. Were hirin! Yes real live chickens! Mechanics are also in big demand. Just my opinion it looks like a kid from a trade school will have a better chance at a good job vrs a college grad. Sorry things are so rotten in your neck of the woods.

[Cedarman]

Had a lady call me from Los Angelos yesterday looking for cedar to export to Shanghai.  The wood will be made into shoe trees.  We had about a 20 minute chat that I found very interesting.  I asked if the shoe trees and coat hangers were coming back to the US.  She said no.  The people in the US would not pay the price to get such nice coat hangers and shoe trees.  The wood was going to Italy where the folks there have expensive clothes and shoes and want to keep them looking as nice as possible.  She told me it would be a waste of money to spend $300.00 on a coat for her daughter because her daughter would wear it one season, it would be out of style and then given to Goodwill. So she buys a $30.00 coat at Walmart.  She said Americans want cheap stuff and use it and throw it away.

From talking with this lady, she was about my age and was born in Japan.  Her last name is Chen.  I would love to meet this lady and spend a few hours listening to her perspective on things.  She is very conservative, use things until they are used up. Buy only what you need, etc.  Her daughter derides her for wearing out of style clothes etc.

[SwampDonkey]

My mother drives me nuts sometimes by wanting to always buy me a coat. I tell her 10 times a year at least that the closet is full of coats and I don't need any more. For some reason I always get a new coat whether it's needed or not. I have coats that range in price from $50 to $400. I'm quite content with a sweater and Jeff's Forum Jacket to tell you the truth and will probably wear that to rags and torment my mom to no end.  :D :D ;D

Got any more of those jackets Jeff? ;)

[SPIKER]

just read the paper today, that Mich is #1 and Ohio is #2 on the foreclosure lists.  What that means is that they are also probably #1 and #2 on the lost good jobs list at least the good paying jobs list...   reading the help wanted ads still same, 2~4 pages of foreclosures and 1/3 page of help wanted. 80% were CDL/medical required rest were at temp services.   That is something that is getting to be terrible around here, all the companies are hire temps only and keep them on payroll at lower wage that what they had paid the ave worker and have no tax/unemployment and insurance that ave worker gets...   Then the order/job is done ffire the temps/terminate temp contract until next order is needed...

this means that if the temp worker isn't doing what is wanted the company says send someone else and kick this non-performing guy out.   Which is OK if the guy isn't working but it is a way to get around unions and the union idea that you need 5 guys to do 2 guys work load.   which was the case where I just was let go from, out of 8 guys 3 of us would work & keep busy the other 5 would LOOK busy or disappear claiming to be working/doing something...   I was let go as the new hire, even though I was one of the 3 workers that performed and I had saved the company 5 times my salary in direct natural gas savings alone, this savings will be saved every month as long as they are in business but as long as they tolerate the non-performing people then they are not going to be long for the business world...   I didn't harbor any ill will towards the company for my job loss but I did/do when the others are being paid for doing next to nothing 4 out of 5 days a week.   I think this is where the other guys are kicking our buts on product costs, US companies have to build in extra costs to cover so many things, not just higher natural material costs and higher labor costs but higher costs for EPA Insurance, Taxes and the under performing individuals that can't be gotten rid of due to union/labor laws and people getting tenured situations.   While I have been a union member over 5 yrs in teamsters the general idea to only care about what YOU are doing and letting every one else screw off is why I'm back looking for work and why the big US automakers can't sell over priced under performing cars/trucks.   

anyhow younger generations ARE thinking that everything should be handed to them is pretty  much right on in this area.   I don't think I've met 2 guys under 30 who would actually work for honest pay for honest days labor...

seems there are a LOT of teenage mothers who get knocked up just so gov will give them free housing, cars, meals ect and don't give a dang about the kid the daddy's don't care or have jobs or support the girl/kids...   and then the reform gov aid so that they can only be on there for a few years  UNLESS they have a NEW kid every 3 years or git off welfare for a year!?!?  only means they get to keep having kids with little future and then get to stay on the gov dole that much longer!?!? 

argh now I'm all agitated


Mark m

[Cedarman]

There are young kids that won't work and I have had some go through the mill.  They don't last long.  When I do get a good one, I keep them as long as possible.  They are working the summer or a few days here and there as their schooling permits. 

Now, I am going to brag on my 20 year old son.  He works for me as he can when home from college. Studying automotive technology.  Every one needs cars and trucks worked on, so he should have job security.  He also is working to become a volunteer fireman by going to classes on Sunday and Tuesday evening where he has to drive 1 1/2 hour each way.

But he can smell opportunity when he gets near it.  A collage professor told him about an antique car auction not too far from us and that they would need loaders to move these vehicles after they were sold. Some had been sitting so long they had 8" trees growing up through them.  He borrowed my loader and hauled it up with his truck and my trailer and with his friend made $1400.00 cash in less than a day and a half. Work was easy and they had them standing in line for their service.  He made them sign waivers etc.

He did the research weeks before the job so he could be very prepared to be efficient and be sure he could make money.

Those youngsters that are willing to think and work will do just fine in this world. Those that won't could be in for tougher times.

[Don_Papenburg]

Cederman , that is good of your son .  I have  seen very little of that .  But laziness is not just the kids . I was blasting a manufacturing plant about 10 years ago . I needed some material moved so I could get to what I was suposed to blast .  I asked the guy sitting on the Towmotor right next to the stuff .   His reply: Thats not my job ,thats Danny'S job.    >:(
  Years before that I was working in a welding shop I was told that I could not do more than x or the boss would expect everyone to do that from then on . If  I did do more than x I would be kicked out of the union and then lose my job becaus ethey would not work with non union help.

My wifes cousin's little boy  5yo had his mom get him Tshirts last summer .  The two of them tiedied them and he sold them around his neighbor hood .  He made 140 dollars that week.   The funny part is that he hired his older brother to help sell .  His older brother got to goofing around so the young one fired him. :D

[DanG]

Those youngsters that are willing to think and work will do just fine in this world. Those that won't could be in for tougher times.

Ain't that always been the way of the World?

[blueduck]

Ive been watching different areas like the great basin [oregon, idaho, nevada]  and the mining jobs are the ones that have been draging folks away from other areas for the past few years around this once big logging arena, and farming..... loggers are still paying wages that i worked for 20 years ago, very hard to make more than $15-20 per hour in the woods today unless working under a good helicopter outfit and most of those workers end up "tweekerz" from the  relentless moving around.

Wyoming is drawing many fellas to the coal feilds, rumour control sez the truck drivers willing to work 90-120 hours per week are making huge take home checks even though they are burning out, but living in the truck cab is better than paying rent or trying to find rentable housing there..... ranch jobs are suffering cause you can make more in the coal/oil/gas industries than any rancher is gonna pay for a top hand let alone a mediocre hand.  If a person has any skillz at all they are in demand in Wyoming, in several ways. 

Ive been offered a place to stay if i drag my portable mill up to North Pole Alaska [though i dont know what there is to cut available in the area] or just bring a welding helmet and the placer mines will hire a welder on for day work or week or permanent if they need em right now..... and if a person is a diesel mechanic there is always boat work to do up there too..... but the call of the North never quite has hit me, though i might just go visit if given the chance this spring/summer and make it a working vacation.

Here in North Central Idaho the exodus of jobs from the mills is of course the big news, rail cars sitting on the abandoned line [ok they are paying rent to the new owners if inded the mill did not buy the track as rumour control has it they did], 70 miles to the west in the seaport of Lewiston Idaho they are working 4 shifts in the ammunition factory, pay starts at $11 and goes up to about $15, non-union, work is 4 -10's one week 3 the next, and they are behind on their government contracts..... a little farther south of us the billionaires are still buying out the millionaires and pushing them to here amonst us lowly folks who scrape by, so the high end housing market is still flourishing near Tamarack, Cascade and McCall , shoot i hear even Carole King and Steve Miller have theri houses up for sale as the "new folks" moving in are just not to their liking...lol or the price is right who knows.

locally the housing market has hit a wall last July, bare ground is actually coming down as people who were asking many times the price it ought to be are now stuck paying taxes on un-soldd ground in a subdivision that the county is soaking them on after giving them 3 years to sell the lots..... I personally thinkit funny cause they took great ground for farming or growing timber and made 5 acres plots  for housing on it to "rake in the big dollars" hyped up by the realators [some of who are not able to pay all their bils now either].

Tourism and service economy jobs just wont keep the country afloat, it take manufacture jobs from agriculture to mechanical to keep the "extra" disposable cash flowing through the economy stream, when i farmed i understood that a agriculture dollar turned over  7 times in the local economy where the mill dollar only turned 4 times, then came along the age of non-local loans and credit cards and the dollars turned less locally than before as the products were mail ordered in, or the bills paid to companies far outside of the local reaches.... now those who received those dollars are finding themselves replaced with foreign outsourced workers and the dollars turning less in those areas as well..... all in favor of a corporation making a larger profit at the expense of the local people who once built it.

I may or may not pursue the expansion to another mill this year, I am still considering it, but it just does not look as potentially profitable as it did just a few months ago and i knew the economy was taking a downturn then..... It may be better to just become a "gypsy" worker and bounce around for a year or so, that is the great thing about being a GOAT [generalist of all trades]  just a fella dont want to be known as an OLD GOAT.....

William
Central Idaho

[Polly]

     ross pero when he was running for president said if the us signed the nafta agreement their would be a giant succking sound as us jobs left the us he was a very smart man it is a shame bill and hillory did not have the common sence to listen to him one has to wonder if they did not want this to happen :( :( :( 8)   

[SwampDonkey]

They didn't come here. I think per capita, it was an even bigger chew, gulp and spittle.  :-\