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Planer Moulder M412 actual performance?

Started by BandsawWarrior, December 22, 2007, 09:22:05 PM

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BandsawWarrior

Hello,

      I've been trying to do research on planer moulders specifically the Baker M412.  I came across this website and was very pleased to see so many people sharing my same interests, so I signed up! 
      Currently I pay someone to do my custom moulding for me.  Mostly 1x6 T&G and paneling.  I can spend up to $2000 a month on planing costs.  I would like to get a M412 to increase my profit margin and keep that money in the business.  My only concern is that my expectations for the machine might be a little high.
      I need to be able to run 5000 to 10000 lineal ft of 1x6 Douglas Fir at a time.  This is kiln dried, clean and already planed on one side.  My question is can this machine produce these kind of numbers at a reasonable feed rate.  At 30ft/min 10000 would take 6 hours...that would be fine.  Will knives stay sharp long enough to run those numbers?  If I have switch knives every 1500 ft or run at 15ft/min that's not so good...
     I would love to hear from anyone with experience with this machine or similar.  Most the posts regarding these machines mention runs of 800 ft here and 1000 ft there.  I'm hoping to set up, run 5000 to 10000 lineal ft of 1x6 without chaning blades....is this unrealistic??? 

thanks for any help!


Tyler Hart
T&N Custom Sawmill

Radar67

First, welcome to the forum.

You came to a good place, the Baker boys will jump in and answer your questions shortly. Baker is one of the sponsors and Adaminmo or Tom should be able to answer your question.

I saw this planer at Moultrie and it was an impressive piece of equipment.
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

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This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

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Kelvin

Howdy,
I've been thinking about moulders for quite awhile here, but i personally don't have experience with that machine.  I believe Sunhill imports a copy of this machine as well.   I've seen some used ones sell on ebay for pretty cheap compared to what they are new, and they are pretty close to a logosol which is a 4 head machine and quite a few folks run here on the forum.  I've seen one of those. 
My thoughts on the baker machine are that its pretty small to run lots of material, though i'm not sure if what you are planning on doing is really "lots" by most estimates.  I personally am looking for a big older moulder as they have much more horse power, 4-6 heads and designed to run big batches, and best of all real cheap!  $2k would get you a good old 5k lbs piece of american made iron.  I don't have the need or the space yet, but i've passed up some for pretty cheap.  I would consider going this route unless you are limited by electrical supply.  As far as the life of the blades go i would think that is dependent on the type of cutters you are using.  You can always buy either carbide tipped straight knives for the planer head and carbide cutters for the side heads and get 10x's the run time of tool steel for your desire to not be sharpening knives, which is also my concern.  You can always get better steel knives as well.  THere is a wide selection of tool steel and they wear differently.  CHeap stuff that comes on some of my grizzly tools didn't wear so well compared to the replacement knives i bought for example.
Just some ideas i've thought over regarding this subject.
KP

BandsawWarrior

     Thanks for the replies!  I would consider a bigger older machine but my power situation is limited.  I'd really like to get a smaller moulder because of their versatility, but only if it can complete my larger orders as mentioned above.  The next size machine (5 heads) gets pricey in the 20k-30k range.  I'm really hoping to stay with a smaller machine.   
     Would love to hear from more people running a Baker M412 or ph260 on what kind of lineal they can run on a set of knives before they need to be changed or sharpened.  I've spoken with Bailey's, Baker, Mouldingknives.com, and have gotten answers ranging from 2000LF to 10000LF...maybe this is a hard question with so many variables.   


Also, is a carbide knife a lot more expensive than a HSS knife? 

thanks for any replies!
   
Tyler Hart
T&N Custom Sawmill

Don K

Maybe Arkansawyer will see this and chime in. He bought a new PH 260 this year in single phase I believe and if anyone could put it through its paces I bet it would be him. If he doesn't answer, you could send him a PM as he is a mighty busy man these days. I drooled over a baker machine at Moultrie this year.

Don
Lucky to own a WM LT40HDD35, blessed to have a wife that encouraged me to buy it.     Now that\'s true love!
Massey Ferguson 1547 FWD with FEL  06 GMC Sierra 2500HD 4X4 Dozer Retriever Husky 359 20\" Bar  Man, life is getting good!

Kelvin

Howdy again,
I've not delt with a moulder before so it depends on the types of heads you are running.  I think standard flat knives for a planer in carbide tipped would be about 4x's as much as steel, but if you figure not sharpening and wasting time re-setting up you should be money ahead.  I think most moulders in production settings are bought with a sharpening machine so they run steel and simply pop the heads off, insert in machine sharpen on the head and back to running.  Carbide is hard to sharpen at home, and would most likely be sent out and costs more to sharpen.  Maybe 2-3x's as much in my experience with planer/jointer knives

You don't need to price new, even expensive used ones are pretty cheap if they are older vintage.  New shops constantly upgrade, or unfortuneately go out of business, and there are lots of moulders.  they are a pain in the neck and don't resell real well if older.  Often you can get the head sharpening machine with them.  You can save quite a bit from a reseller if you are in a hurry, Xfactory  i think is one, or wait for auctions at IRS auctions for bigger savings.  Buy one that is actively running.  Either way you go, most people say that 3 phase machines, like on the logosol, are much more powerful b/c they run 7.5hp motors for the same price as single phase 5 hp.  I've heard time and time again, maybe 10 different people who wished they had upgraded electrical and got the 3 phase logosol.  I would really consider this point.

Another biggie is cost of having knives made.  I've seen used ones with 100's of knives thrown in, with extra heads, for hardly anything more, maybe $1500 for total setup, but these were probably older than most.  Get a price on one set and you will see how much you will be spending to just have a few profiles made.  I've been impressed!

Logosol is a 4 head machine for just under $10k new.  You will also need a very big blower to gather chips.  Better make sure you have the CFM's to handle which ever machine you get, they overwhelm standard shop blowers.  The logosol company sells one for theirs, its expensive and large.  You can find these used as well for pennies on the dollar. (no, i don't work for logosol, i just saw one recently, in fact i've heard that they too are whimpy for anything but small shops with limited runs)

MikeH

 Hi, I have the logosol ph260 and I like it, but no way can I come close to those numbers on t&g flooring I make. Maybe the Baker would get close if you can use carbide spiral head cutters on top and bottom and get carbide side cutters. That would allow faster feed rate and way longer blade life. :)

logwalker

Mike? why do you think the carbides could feed faster? I think the HS Steel takes a better cutting edge. Inquiring minds want to know. Jow
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

MikeH

The spiral heads will allow for the faster feed not the carbide.  I changed my planer from hss to spiral (bryd shelix) head and what a major difference. The problem on a molder is you could not put profile blades on top or bottom, only sides if you went spiral. Would work for flooring,  panneling and such.

ADAMINMO

I don't know if 10,000 ft of flooring is possible on one run without changing or sharpening blades,atleast standard straight cutters on the machine.By going to the spiral cutterhead on top and bottom with carbide cutters you would increase that footage drasticly.I could not tell you the exact footage you could get out of one run without changing blades as I have never run one to see how much material you can get out of them. There are a couple people on this forum that own a M-412 moulder.Louisiana Redneck has had one for quite a while and could probably answer these questions, and scsmith42 has had one but I don't know if he has ran the machine yet.You could pm these guys and see what they say.I will help with answers to questions I can answer but I am not going to take a shot in the dark to make the machine sound better than it is.

scsmith42

Adam, mine is still crated - probably be another month or two before I set it up.

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Cedarman

I use a spiral head planer to preplane all the lumber before it goes to the moulder.  That way I have a very uniform thickness..  I straight edge on the WM.  About 12 to 18 boards at a time. Most of the time we are running 5/8" lumber.  I use a small 2x6 Dominion Midas moulder that I bought used to make lots of T&G. I use just the top head and 2 side heads.  After moulding, I run through a belt sander to put a really good finish on the boards.  Running cedar, I can get 10,000 lf on a sharpening.  I use a Delta sharpener to sharpen my own straight knives. We run at about 25 to 30 lf per minute.

A spiral head planer can leave very fine lines on the board.  If you shine the light just right on a board that has been run, you can see them.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

ADAMINMO

Did all your questions get answered? Let me know if there is any other things I may be able to help with.

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