Mill closing

Tillaway · April 29, 2003, 02:10:19 PM

http://www.redding.com/top_stories/local/20030429toplo020.shtml

McCloud consists of 1 gas station, 2 minimarts, a small grocery store, a coffee place, a couple of restaurants and an RV Park. They also have thier own railroad that transported the mill production as well as the dinner train for the tourists.
The next largest employer would be the USFS district office there.

On the up side this mill is well located with good access to the main interstate, and lots of timber both private and public in the area. It would make an ideal location for a small log mill to handle the vast amount small diameter Ponderosa Pine and Fir in the area. I will bet this mill will reopen at some point but not soon. The lumber prices are too low right now to make a go of it I'm afraid.

Ron Wenrich · April 29, 2003, 02:48:18 PM

My kids keep on bringing home pencils that are made from plastic, and not wood. Hard on the sharpener.

And last week I heard that Life-Savers are not longer made in the US. Closed the plant and moved to Canada. Lower sugar prices, since the Canadians don't mandate the use of US subsidized sugar.

shopteacher · April 29, 2003, 04:40:13 PM

I feel for the guys who work there. In a small town like that I imagine a large portion of the local ecomony depends on the mill. I worked at a mill for 13 years till it shut down. The logs were made of iron though. I really hated working there in the heat, dust and dirt, but it provided a paycheck for my family. When it shutdown I really wasn't sorry to see it go, but it was kind of sad. That mill started up around 1900 and provided a lots of meals, clothes and education for the families that depended on it. I went to college and worked on a teaching degree and 6 years later got a job as a woodshop teacher at a high school 40 minutes away. Long drive each way everyday, but I'm one of the lucky ones. I hope the folks at McCloud are as lucky. Today the capacity to produce much on anything here at home has been exported to the point it's a rarity to find anything with made in USA on it. What a shame.
GC

johncinquo · April 30, 2003, 08:33:27 AM

Yeah Life savers moved out of Holland MI because the sugar "tariffs" in the US. A whole factory of people laid off, so we can help benefit a very very finite select few of sugar beet growers. Shows where some of our thinking is even today. Now we can all pay more in unemployment benefits, families will suffer, and the economy gets even worse. They offered them tax incentives and all kinds of plans to stay, but the artificial pricing proved to big of an obstacle to over come.

Frank_Pender · April 30, 2003, 09:04:50 PM

Yep, here in Oregon, the same thing Tillaway. Rosburg Lumber closed earlier this year, in Southern Oregon. That patch of timber I have taken over manageing this Spring has about 300 acres of chip-n-saw. The price for that at the mills is running around $45 a ton, but they really do not want it either. Therefore, we have a fourth down and can't even punt. I truly feel that the land owner needs to make some change on this deal and we just can't pencil it out, it seems.

IndyIan · May 01, 2003, 03:57:29 PM

That's too bad about the mill, hopefully something will get going there.

I'm surprised that life savers had to use US sugar, I would've thought the farmers would be subsidized until they were competitive in the market.

I guess the sugar beet farmers had some powerful friends... I don't really understand how that all works, I get one vote just like the CEO of a big company but some how the government seem to tilt towards the big companies... The whole lobbyist, party contribution thing doesn't seem like its real good idea...

Maybe on a positive note for the US, the Canadian dollar is rising very quickly relative to the US, so we are losing our manufacturing "advantage".

Probably means life savers will go to mexico... :

What do you guys think of free trade/ NAFTA? Up here it wasn't to popular but southern ontario is booming because of it. Of course that means more urban sprawl and lots of farm land being stripped and paved over but that's "growth". And we gotta have a "growing" economy :

We also had an air quality advisory in Hamilton on Monday... Earliest ever... I guess that's a sign of "growth" too, cancerous urban sprawl...

Anyways, I'm planting 500 red pine tommorow so that's something positive!
Ian

johncinquo · May 02, 2003, 10:59:33 AM

They dont have to use US sugar, but anything coming into the US is just tariffed or taxed to make it the same price as anything produced here.

I went out and bought 35 cherrries, 35 shagbark hickory, and 40 walnut and plan on doing a little planting myself this weekend. Hope you have a great one! JB

Ron Wenrich · May 03, 2003, 04:58:48 AM

NAFTA pretty well shut down all the knitting mills in the area.

From what I understand, where the problems are going to really start is when they leave those Mexican trucks on the highways. Right now, everything gets changed at the border.

IndyIan · May 06, 2003, 09:35:24 AM

Well, I got all 500 red pine in on friday plus they had some extra Red Oak so I got 20 of them, planted a little grove near the edge of a field. Saturday was spent recovering... ;D
Planting in grass is not as easy as planting in bare soil... Lots of rain yesterday so they have a good start! 8)

Ron,
Do you mean there will be mexican trucks driving through out the US and Canada soon? That might be interesting... I can't say I've ever been to mexico but I've heard the drivers are a bit crazy... I guess local cops will be pretty vigilant againist that though.

I think so far NAFTA has benefited Canada and Mexico than the US but there are some interesting clauses that will pay off for the US in the future. One is that Canada can't reduce the percentage of our oil or natural gas production we sell to the US. Canada could be self sufficient in oil but we have to sell alot of it to the US. No getting out of it. Not a big deal now but when the reserves begin to run low it will cost canadians quite a bit of cash at the pump.
Anyways, I'm not trying to start an argument, just interested in what you neighbors south of the border think of NAFTA.

Ian

Tom · May 06, 2003, 01:13:40 PM

Not caring to argue either but as the days go by, I am becoming more and more an Isolationist.

Ron Wenrich · May 06, 2003, 04:15:26 PM

Well, there's argurements and there are discussions. We don't do any argueing here at the forum, just discussing. ;D

From my understanding, the Mexicans will be allowed to drive in through the US. Right now, they drop their trailers at the border and US companies do the hauling.

The biggest problem is the safety of the Mexican rigs. Also, a language barrier, but that doesn't effect the French-Canadians that pick up lumber at the mill. :D

Hey Tom. Who said the more people I meet, the more I like my dog?

Tom · May 06, 2003, 04:24:04 PM

I dunno, Ron. But, I gotta get a dog, I guess. :D

DanG · May 06, 2003, 07:44:24 PM

I can bring ya a couple, Tom. ;D

I'd be all for this NAFTA thing, if the playing field were level. We import Mexican veggies that are soaked in chemicals, and produced by virtual slaves, and we import Canadian lumber that is subsidized by the Canadian government. I think the stuff that is imported should be subject to the same taxes that the domestic products are, and the standards should be the same. Government subsidized products should be exempt from the NAFTA agreement, and that goes for U.S. tobacco, as well as Canadian lumber. Fair is fair, and what we got right now just AIN'T! >:(

IndyIan · May 07, 2003, 10:34:31 AM

I hear you Tom, I guess there's political isolation and economic isolation, but it's hard to seperate the two. Maybe the old way with tariffs and whatever trade rules a country wanted worked the best... The US could probably be quite happy being self sufficient if you guys could cut down on energy use.

DanG brings up the other problem is that many factors affect the cost of things. Common standards are hard to decide and probably harder to enforce. Mexican veggies have chemicals in them and US milk has steriods and I'm sure canadian something has stuff in it that the FDA doesn't like.
I believe Canadian lumber isn't subsidized, but the crown owns most of the land and the provincial government takes bids on harvesting contracts. So I guess there's no land owner trying to make a profit which would make our lumber a bit cheaper. Probably what happens as well is the province will take low bids in areas that could use some jobs and not charge what the management costs. Is it subsidizing? I don't know, it's just a different situation than the US has.

I'm sure there are lots of other canucks in the forum that know more about how the lumber sale process goes.

DanG · May 07, 2003, 10:53:03 AM

I'm sure you're right, Indylan. Most all Canadians would know more about that than I do.

I think the main problem with NAFTA is the mismatch between the agreement and our system of taxing corporations. Our government is taxing the profits of domestic corporations, when they should put a sales tax on the products, instead. That way, all would be charged equally, and there would be less incentive for companies to move across the border.

IndyIan · May 07, 2003, 11:30:10 AM

DanG,
What I meant to say above is that I'm sure other canuck's know more than me about how the whole softwood lumber industry works in Canada. I tried to find the official process online but no luck.

That's a good idea with the sales tax. Good luck with your mill too!

Ron Wenrich · May 07, 2003, 02:57:39 PM

In order to offset the income tax, a sales tax would have to be in the neighborhood of 17% There are a lot of businesses that would fall away with that kind of tax rate. Add another 17% to the cost of a car or a house and that would pretty well kill the industry. You would also see a lot more business go underground.

A high sales tax would kill consumption. Consumption is what fuels the economy.

I'm more in favor of some type of combination of a flat income tax and a sales tax, which is also called a value added tax. I also believe that every taxpayer should be responsible for sending in their own quarterlies. Employers should not be mandated to be government tax collectors.

Government ususally take the profit out of everything. Crime wouldn't pay if the government run it. :D

OneWithWood · May 08, 2003, 07:23:16 AM

Ron, I agree with you. A flat income tax plus a value added tax would be a much more fair system. Everyone would be on equal ground and pay according to their consumption. Of course the business expense and depreciation deductions would need to be preserved so folks would have half a chance when starting up a new venture.

Bro. Noble · May 08, 2003, 07:54:24 AM

Why don't you guys run for office------I'd vote for that.

I don't mind paying taxes, but I don't like paying more than my share and I sure hate to see it wasted in some of the foolishness that goes on.

I'd like to see a change in county taxes so that realestate taxes aren't the main source of revenue for the schools and county roads. The farmers have too little income to provide most of the county's tax revenue.

Hey, and while we're at it, how about requiring that a person be a tax payer in order to be a voter!!

Noble

Bibbyman · May 08, 2003, 08:29:55 AM

While we are reworking the tax system, why don't we give tax payers a choice on how their tax money is to be spent?

When it comes tax time, have boxes on the form for say a dozen different categories. In these boxes, a tax payer would put what percent of their taxes owed would go to what category - lets say in 10% increments - to total 100%. Thus one person may want his tax obligation to go 50% to the military and 50% to Social Security. The next person may want all their money to go to welfare and none to anything else.

That way our tax money would be spent on exactly what we want it spent and not up to 6-700 yahoos in the House and Senate and a couple of thousand lobby groups. Also, the functions in each category would have to perform to the tax payer's expectations - not the House and Senate and lobby groups - if they expect to keep getting funds.

IndyIan · May 08, 2003, 12:35:59 PM

Ron,
Here in Ontario we have a 15% sales tax... 8% is provincial and 7% is federal. The general effect is that people buy 15% less of things. Also a $20,000 vehicle jumps to $23000!
Everything's advertised price is not including taxes and businesses just collect it, the consumer pays it.

I guess it does tax the people who spend more on luxury items, stuff like groceries, utilities only have one of the sales taxes applied. (I forget which one... :

) Rent has no sales tax.

I'm surprised there isn't people kicking down the door to the white house over the dividends tax break. Someone is going to pay the difference or somebody is going to lose out on some government service they need.

Bibbyman,
That's an interesting tax plan, people wouldn't complain how there money was being spent! Or you could blame your neighbors! ;D
Cutting out the lobby group crap would be a bonus too!

Here's my radical idea of the week.

What if all politicians had their personal property confiscated by the state when they where elected. Stocks, cash, businesses, everything except their house. They would be paid well and have a good pension when they were done and could recieve no gifts over some reasonalbe amount.
Basically make it impossible to financially gain by running for office.
This way people would run for office for the right reasons, make their decisions based soley on what's best for the country, not a minority in it. Also there would be less doubt of their motives. Cheney and Halliburton come to mind...

Anyways, if your feeling subversive search for "cheney" and "oil" in yahoo. All sorts of interesting stuff comes up.

Ian

biziedizie · May 08, 2003, 02:33:55 PM

Here's what I don't get about this GST garbage. The goverment tells me that I make too much money so now I have to charge my customers 7% GST. Well let's say that last month I collected 900 in GST which the goverment says I owe them. OK fair enough I just collect 900 for these guys, but by the time my accountant is finished my GST statement I only had to pay 300 to the clowns and I get to spend 600.
I feel that the customer gets the shaft in the end cause they paid me the GST thinking that the goverment was going to get it but in the end it ends up in my jeans.

Steve

Ron Wenrich · May 08, 2003, 03:41:36 PM

Run for office. :D :D There ain't no way I'd get elected. I'm just a little too much '60s radical for the local population.

Bibby, if I put down 0% for every category, would that mean I wouldn't have to pay taxes.

Our state is running a $2 billion deficit. They want to add another 33% onto our state income tax. We have a flat tax, and no deductions. They want to add slots at the track, 5.4 cents onto the gas, tax on beer and maybe another 1% on sales tax. They also want to greatly reduce or get rid of the real estate tax. My dad used to say if the government could ever figure out how much air you breathe, they'd tax that.

I don't have a beef with the real estate tax. I do have a beef about how they appraise property. Farmland is farmland, not undeveloped land. Tax it for how its being used, not how it could be used. A lot of good farmland has gone into development thanks to these accounting methods.

Our state must have a balanced budget, unlike the Feds. But, the feds have a huge impact on our laws and budget through their unfunded mandates. Medicare, welfare, transportation, and utilities are all run by the state but mandated by the feds.

Consumption taxes are voluntary taxes. I can get past them by not buying things or buy used or buy underground.

The dividend tax reduction will mainly benefit those who own individual stocks. It will not effect your retirement or mutual fund. These dividends will still be taxed at the old rate. The reason the wealthy are taxed is because they can afford it.

You will never be able to get government and business to be seperated. Campaign financing reform would help. Look at how those clowns at Enron manipulated the government. They dumped a ton of money on both political parties, just to get their way. And who foot the bill?

Furby · May 08, 2003, 03:58:01 PM

Just so long as they don't start adding more tax on your "grits", eh boys. ;) ;D

Tillaway · May 08, 2003, 04:09:23 PM

California has got double taxation down to an art. You pay sales tax on a vehicle, tractor, heavy equipment, or sawmills then you pay property tax on it every year you own it. You used to pay sales tax on the state highway tax for each gallon of fuel. They did that for years until getting caught.

I will go to substansial lengths to avoid large sales tax. Anything over 1% or 2% certainly over 5 will lead to avoidance. Small amounts are easier to swallow and people like me won't bother to avoid them, too much hassle. One proposal I saw years ago was a 2% sales tax on all transactions from manufacture and service all the way to retail. Nothing is not taxed. The projected numbers I saw matched or exceeded current tax funds collected.

My personal combined state and federal effective income tax rate for 2002 was 3.3%. The sales,property tax, and sales tax easily amount to a much higher percentage themselves. This is really where you get nailed in California.

Bibbyman · May 09, 2003, 06:48:04 AM

QuoteIn these boxes, a tax payer would put what percent of their taxes owed would go to what category - lets say in 10% increments - to total 100%

No Ron, under my plan, everyone would pay 100% of what they owed - (however it was calculated). Just that the tax payer would decide to what use it was going to be put.

Patty · May 09, 2003, 09:01:49 AM

I think Bib has a great idea. Enforcing the appropriate allocations would be the only job of the IRS, as opposed to the confiscation they are in charge of now.

A flat tax where each of us pays the same, or a consumption tax is the only fair taxation, in my opinion. At least with a consumption tax I get to choose whether or not I want to pay the tax. "How badly do I really need that new car?" Punishing those who excel by increasing their tax rates is very counterproductive. Makes one wonder way too often why in the world they try so hard, when the government just takes a bigger share. You lose the desire to try harder when you are punished for it.

Ok, I'll step off my box for now...I just had to get that off my chest.