Help a Newbie to NOT bite off more than he can chew...

[TGofWNY]

Hi all. My Name is Tom and I'm from Western NY. Love the forum so far, Ive already learned alot. Anyways, my wife and I live on 1 acre, and have been dreaming of having alot more room to roam. Well, 4 months ago we found a piece of land  that we never thought the bank would finance for us. Well, we were wrong. We are now the proud owners of 134 acres. The land is just what we were looking for- a good mix- approx 20 acres of leased farm fields, 20 acres of transition/brush lots and the remaining 90ish acres being mixed woods. Well, with the land pushing us to our financial limits, Im trying to figure out how to build a barn and house with VERY little money. I'm no carpenter by any means, but i can usually find a way to get things done. Usually painfully slowly, but eventually get it done somehow. Anyways, I was thinking about possibly trying to buy a Backhoe/Loader and a portable sawmill. I'm thinking that If I have the lumber growing on the land already, I might as well try to put it to use. There are alot of Hemlocks on the property, and the Amish folks around here seem to use it almost exclusively for their buildings. I was thinking that if I could get a small barn up by myself, using my own trees and mill, I would have an Idea of how rediculously bad of an idea building a house would be. HA! Well, If you're still reading, thanks for hanging in there. My questions would be : What type and size mill would suffice for what Im thinking?How much should I expect to pay for it? What about having a debarker is so important- and can one be used on any mill?  Is Hemlock really good for building , and how long should it be seasoned? And last but not least - Am I Crazy? Any Help/Info/advice would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[brdmkr]

I'll start with your last question...  Yep, you are likely crazy, but I wouldn't let that discourage me!  I am too.  I started hanging out here a couple years ago (maybe more ???).  I soon bought a mill and have built a 1000 sqft shop with lumber that I milled.  Prior to that, I had done some woodworking and built a 320 sq ft shop.  I am currently hoarding wood for my house.  Mill prices are highly variable, and there is not a thing wrong with buying a good used mill.  What type of mill you buy will determine the price of the mill.  What type should be determined by how you intend to use it and what support equipment you have available.  Rather than try to explain various conditions that seem to favor certain mills, I'll tell you my experience and why I did what I did.  I'll also tell you what I'd do differently.

When I bought my mill, I had basically no log handling ability and I had access to some rather large logs.  I was also driving a Ford ranger and knew that I could not pull a heavy mill around.  I was also rolling in cash... NO wait, I didn't have much cash.  Memory is coming back now.  So, large logs, little support equipment, small truck = swing mill.  It just happened that I came across a Lucas at a good price and have not looked back.  HOWEVER, the number of really large logs has actually been limited.  I'd say 90% of what I mill could be handled on a 'full-sized' band mill.  Further, the board width limitation on Lucas gets aggravating at times.  So, I often wish I had a band will as well.  I think I may have this issue worked out, but that will have to be a topic of a different discussion, hopefully with pics!


You have come to the right place.  There are lots of good folks here and they don't mind sharing what they know.

You are in for a really good time.  Keep us posted and welcome to the forum!

[Brad_S.]

All right, another Western New Yorker! That's 2 this week! Soon we'll be giving those MI'er a run for their money. ;)
Far be it from me to talk anyone out of a sawmill, but for what the Amish charge for sawing, you could harvest your hemlock and have them saw it pretty cheap. Build that barn and if that doesn't scare you off, then get serious about the house.
Of course, having a mill is great. It sounds like your budget will only allow you a small manual mill which will run $4-6K. If you're near Amish, you must be south of Buffalo? If so, Norwood (see sponsors to the left) has a warehouse in Buffalo. There is a lot to be said about having a mill that has close local support.
The purpose of the debarker is to get dirt/mud/rocks off the bark in front of the band blade as those items will dull the blade and shorten it's useful cutting life. Small manual mills will not support on board debarkers, but then an ax can handle that job on very muddy logs.
Hemlock has traditionally been used for barns. It is often put up green but if you have time to let it season, that's good too. Hemlock has a reputation for having ring shake which weakens the resulting lumber. It won't matter much for siding but it could be a problem with structural lumber when it comes time to frame a house.

[Nate Surveyor]

Don't listen to me either. I'm crazy too! :D :D :D :D :D :D

I bought a Peterson, and I'm learning that:

I need some support equipment. Like a big tractor, with FEL (Front End Loader). That can lift alot. 2500 LBS absolute Minimum. Green wood is heavy.

Or a all terrain forklift.

I started with Alaskan mill, then Logosol, now Peterson.


Don't forget some sort of way to move stuff around, as part of the equation as you look.

Nate

[StorminN]

Hey TG,

Good going, and welcome to the forum...

I'm a newbie when it comes to mills, but what I can share is my experience from the last few years... my situation sounds much smaller than yours, but similar. I bought a piece of property that's nine acres of second-growth forest out here in western Washington state... so that means fir, cedar, hemlock, and alder, everything but the alders being about 70 years old. I'm doing this alone and "on the cheap" (ie., I don't want to take out any loans), so my budget is basically what I can scrape together every so often. I looked around for a mill for a while, and ended up buying a used-and-in-disassembled condition Mobile Dimension mill for $6k. In hindsight, I love the mill, but given the condition it was in, I paid too much. Over the course of a year, by the time I upgraded it to where I wanted it to be and replaced worn bearings, belts, etc., I had spent another $2k. In the meantime I saw newer used Mobile Dimension mills go for $8k and $10... but at least I now know where I stand with mine, and I have the satisfaction of "restoring" a piece of machinery (for what it's worth).

Shortly after I bought the MD, I bought a big old John Deere 690 excavator... I got a great deal on it, and I figured I'd need something to pull stumps with, move rocks, logs, etc. I was right! I cleared about 1/2 acre of solid forest in a few days' time. I will say that I have used the heck out of the excavator, and it pulls 30" cedar stumps like no other... but I still wish I had a loader or something with forks on it... you can move logs with them, and more importantly, you can move lifts of milled lumber with forks... very nice. In hindsight, I maybe should have bought a backhoe / loader with forks, and just hired someone for a couple of grand to come once or twice and pull all my stumps and clear the land.

So now for the mill... so far I've used my mill to cut mostly dimensional lumber... 2x6, 2x8, 2x10 to build an 800sq ft building. Because I was learning how to mill, I milled my hemlock first... the hemlock are my "least valuable" trees up here. The milling was fun and went well, but to tell you the truth... getting the logs TO the mill and loaded on there is more than half the work. I currently skid logs to the mill with the excavator (it will drag a bundle of three or four 40' x 24" trees without blinking)... but it is very slow. I would be much better off bucking the logs where they are decked and then forking small (12'-16' x 24") logs to the mill one at a time.

Anyway, my point is, it takes TIME. Long story short, unless you have lots of free time (I don't) in my humble opinion, milling dimensional lumber doesn't especially pay. You can go down to the local lumberyard and buy 2x6's for less than it will cost you in time... even if you own your own trees. You can't, however find quality lumber at the lumberyard.. not easily... so that is the main difference.

Now, that being said... if you plan on milling timbers... building a timberframe barn or timberframe home... then heck yeah, I think it's worth your time. I have a friend in NH that did just that this past summer... he had access to a bunch of blowdown trees, he also has an excavator like mine, so he bought a used bandmill, loaded all the logs on a trailer load by load, brought them home and milled them into timbers to use to build his home... sounds like a great idea to me! Oh, and yeah... he's a schoolteacher, so he has all summer off... (wish I did!) that certainly helps!!

One other thing... if you're going to build a permitted building, you're probably going to have to use certified wood... it depends on the building codes in your area. So that means if you mill your own lumber, you still need to have someone come and grade and certify it for structural strength... just something to keep in mind.

As far as the type and size of mill that would best suit your needs, it really depends on what size of trees you have and what type of lumber you want to cut. It also depends on how much help you plan on having, and how fast you want to cut (again, TIME).

Let's start with bandmills. Bandmills have narrow kerfs (least wood wasted to sawdust) and will cut wide boards... most can be operated alone, but those without board return will work much quicker with a extra person off-bearing. Bandmills have limits with really big trees, but I'm guessing you don't have those there in WNY (I could be wrong!). They run the range of prices, from relatively cheap for stationary manual mills to pretty darn expensive for portable, fully hydraulic models. Guys tend to like the hydraulics for bandmills because you end up rotating the logs and cants so much on the mill. You have to pay attention to keep your blades sharp and tensioned, so cuts don't wander and such... I would say bandmills are the least forgiving in this regard. Since most bandmills only have one blade operating in one plane, you need to make more than one pass to get rectangular wood... you will need to rotate your flitches to edge them, or else have a separate edger... again, this means more time. However, if you look at the "iron inventory" post, you will see that the majority of the people on this forum (66%?) own band mills... probably because they are the most versatile type of mill, and the majority of the trees we have left in the US these days are within most bandmill's cutting limits.

Swing mills handle the big trees (>36"?) just fine and have a littler bit thicker kerf... they are nice because most are very portable and can be set up where the tree lies (ie., you can bring the mill to the tree instead of vice-versa)... depending on the model, they are also pretty reasonable, because there are no big metal beds or trailers or hydraulics involved. With swingmills, most of the time you don't rotate the log once you start cutting it... it just sits in one place. Some people use log bunks and clamp their logs, others don't. I've yet to see a swing mill with a hydraulic bed, but I've seen people type about them. Most have one blade that swings 90°, so you make one cut in the forward pass, then swing the blade 90° and cut one edge in the return pass, so you're cutting and edging in the same cycle. Swingmills use a circular blade, so they're limited in how deep of a cut they can make... for most it's 6" to 10" without double-cutting. However, because they use a circular blade, there is less tendancy for the cuts to wander... and because you're cutting and edging in the same cycle, you have a good chance of making square lumber. Swing mill operators do a LOT of walking, though!! Back and forth, the length of the log, each pass.

Multi-blade dimension mills like the Mobile Dimension and D&L will handle the big trees (>36") no problem (the MD in original board and block configuration will literally mill a log of ANY diameter, up to 60' in length), but they have a even bigger kerf than the swingmills, so more wood is wasted to sawdust. (However, if you own 90 acres of trees, you might not care so much about kerf). Dimension mills use circular saws, so they are limited in how deep of a cut they can make. My MD will cut 8"x12" maximum in one pass, but I can cut one timber of any size from any log by squaring up the faces and rotating the log on my bunks like a band mill. Dimension mills normally do, however cut two or three cuts in the same pass, so you're cutting and edging all at one time... you really have to try to screw something up to not get square lumber. The thing I like best about my MD is that it's designed for me to run it alone... I don't have to count on anyone else to show up and help me... I stand in one place and the carriage returns the cut lumber to me on each pass. That, and it's powered by a 55hp air-cooled VW engine that's easy to work on.

There are also the older-style circular mills... big circular blades, stationary mills set up under a building somewhere. I'm not sure if this is what the Amish folks around you have (do they use engines?), but since you only mentioned portable mills, these wouldn't fall under that category.

If I were you, I would go around and find the local guys with mills and watch them work a little, to see what you like. Notice how hard they are working and how much lumber they're making. Notice what sort of support equipment they have, too!

Also, like Brad_S said, if the Amish charge reasonable rates for sawing, maybe that's the ticket. You might even be able to work some trade, logs for milled lumber... heck, you might even find a timberframer there that would chisel you up a barn frame in trade for lumber... you never know.

Whatever you do... good luck, and keep us informed!

-Norm.

[Bibbyman]

The old joke goes, 

Question, "Have you ever suffered from insanity?"
Answer,  "No,  I've mostly enjoyed it!"

Welcome to the Forum.

Here is another idea.  Why not look up someone in your new area that has a portable mill service?  It may be far more cost effective to hire someone with a mill and experience to come in and do your milling.  That way you can get some exposure to the process and a better idea if you can justify owning your own mill.

Wood-Mizer and other mill manufactures have a locator service that can connect you with mill owners in your area.  This Forum has a service directory also.

On the debarker thing.... 

If you fell your own trees and don't skid them on the ground or otherwise get them dirty,  the debarker option will be of little value. 

But if you custom saw or buy logs from all kinds of sources,  they are often filled with blade dulling debris and a debarker pays for itself by longer blade life.

[slidecreekdan]

Hi Tom, Sounds like my life to me.  200 acres of timber in the Great Pacific NorthWest, and what was I to do next?  Well,  Tom, Try to get a mill, you will never look back.
  A lot of good mills out there, I like Wood-Mizer.  I now have 2.
  Listen to The Bibman.  Debarker is a must for the cost.
  It might seem like a big investment at first, but you cant get to the other side of the creek with out getting your feet wet.  They will dry out.

[ely]

in my experience i was dissappointed after hiring someone to mill my logs. when he was finnished i looked at the 4k dollars worth of logs and said to myself" self you could have almost had a mill of your own paid for with that." so now a few years later and 1 sawmill and one skid steer and several other pieces of sharpening equipment later, i have almost got all the stuff i need to operate in a functional capacity. so yeah i say buy your own mill and do your homework before you buy.  i did not have the advantage of the amish folks to mill my logs either, i hear they do great work. i know the amish we have around here do carpentry work really cheap and you will not find anyone else better to learn from.

[dad2nine]

Started off with a 1/2 chevy and a small single axle trailer and a POS chainsaw. Currently I'm up to a 1/2 Chevy PU, two heavy duty dual axle trailers, a bob cat, new husky chainsaw, band setter and sharpener and a WM LT40 manual. right now I'm pretty happy, but am looking for an older yard lift to move the big logs around a bigger Pick up 2500 ~ 3500. Then I'll be looking to build a chainsaw log splitter, I like to quarter saw and yes I am  :D too welcome to the looney bin...

[thecfarm]

Welcome to the forum Tom.A few questions.Have you worked in the woods before?I said woods,not cutting trees in a front yard.Have you used equipment in the woods to get the logs out with?All this is real important if you never did all this.There is a big learning curve here.I have used hemlock for a horse run in and had very little trouble with shake.I used it for a greenhouse too.Most of the time I could tell this tree will give me trouble.Just looks rough and not just right.But some I thought was good I had to butt it 8 feet to get away from the shake.I put it all up green.Did not have a problem with it being green.Hemlock is an old timers wood.But do you have to realize if you put 2 boards together,each wiil shrink about a ¼ inch leaving about a ½ inch space between the boards.I did a board and batten on the run in.Covered it all up.I bought a manual mill,but I'm not sawing a house out.I only have it for my own personal use.These manual mills are ALOT of work and ALOT of time compared to a hyd one.That's why I say,if I don't do it,it don't get done.I have heard about needed lumber graded from other members when building for a house.Sheds,barns, and garages are OK.Maybe in your region you can do it.I would check this out first.Good luck.Take yout time with this new adventure.

[stonebroke]

I have heard about needed lumber graded from other members when building for a house.Sheds,barns, and garages are OK.Maybe in your region you can do it.I would check this out first.

In NYS He needs a letter from who ever sawed the lumber that if the lumber was graded It would pass. This creates a paper trail for the zoning officer and covers his rear end.

Stonebroke

[tsodak]

Not crazy at all. For me even if the dimensional is not cheaper it is still worthwhile. I always seem cash poor from moment to moment. Once you have the mill, the excuse of how to buy the lumber goes away. Sure it takes time, but to me that is a positive. It slows me down and makes me think about what I really want to do. I bought the cheapest Norwood lumbermate last spring with some extensions, and have not looked back. I dont have timber, but have so far built half of my 12 by 60 foot deck, several horse pens, and a 12X36 horse barn all from lumber that I have cut myself. (Not sone with any of the projects, but looking for more). All of that from trees that would have been pushed into a pile and burned for absolutley no value. I work in an office, and love to have something to come home to in the evening and sweat on for an hour. I still have a POS chainsaw and have added an old bobcat and a single axle trailer to haul logs with behind my suburban. Still need to post some pictures......

Tom

[Tom]

I think that sawing is fun, so, I'd hate to pay someone else to play in my playpen.

Unlike a bass boat, a sawmill can support itself.  It might even make you money.

On 100+ acres, you will always be needing to fix fences and gates, not to mention the repairs to outbuildings.  A sawmill keeps you in board and beams, even if you don't use it every day.

I would recommend your looking for a hydraulic mill with at least a 20 horse engine.  You will always be thankful for the log handling capabilities of the lift, toeboards and clamp.

Your neighbors will be knocking on your door for lumber too, when they find out you have the mill.  Just think of the entryway your property can have and the board fences instead of open wire.

If you try, you can come up with a scenario where the mill is a liability and you could buy the wood cheaper in town.  'Course you could have come up with a scenario that would have left you on your 1 acre lot, close to shopping, entertainment, hospitals and services in town too. 

What always drove me was seeing something for sale that I knew that I could make for myself.   Some of them I did and proved a point and quit.  Some of them I continued with and enjoy each day.  You can buy catfish at the grocery.  It's more fun to spend the day catching them.

[DanG]

Plenty of good advice and education about mills here, so I'll talk about the support equipment a little bit.  I started out with a trailer and a winch after I got my mill.  It was really inconvenient, but did make it possible to load a log onto the mill.  I would load it on the trailer, then make a bridge and roll it from there to the mill.  Soon, I ran across a deal on an old forklift, and it made a huge difference.  I am completely convinced that a forklift is the ideal machine for handling logs.  It will lift more than any loader on a farm tractor or backhoe, and will place them on the mill more precisely and gently.  A while later, I came across a loader to put on my tractor, and that gave me much more flexibility and the ability to clean up and handle all that sawdust.  Both machines have made themselves almost indespensible in most of my non-sawmill activities as well.  I see a lot of folks spending big bucks on a really large tractor or a skidsteer, in an effort to "do it all" with one machine.  I paid $1500 for my 6000# forklift, and another $1500 for the loader I added to my tractor.  Now, admittedly I got a super deal on the forklift, but you can find them all day long for under $5k.  As far as the tractor is concerned, you gotta have one anyway with 100+ acres to deal with, so just get one with a loader on it.  I wouldn't be without that feature anymore even without the sawmill.  A 4wd tractor is much preferred with a loader, even on a good surface.  With 2wd, a heavy load in the bucket makes the rear end too light to get traction.

[Handy Andy]

  Wish Hemlock grew in Kansas, it is good lumber.  As to drying, anything I buy at the lumber yard seems pretty wet.

[Foxtrapper]

I'm the other newbe from western NY.  I have done alot of research on mills in the last few days, but still have along way to go .  Just comparing features between the different mills is giving me a migrane ;D.  I have to wonder if you need alot of support equipment, why not just buy a mill that has some of that "support equipment" built into it, such as a log loader.  It does get pricey in a quick hurry though.  I have the advantage of having run my FIL's mill for a whole summer alone.  That one was a Timber Harvestor 30H, it was a decent mill.  Easy to understand and the learning curve was short ;D.  I understand that TH has gone out of business though :'(.

Anyone got any good leads on a good used automatic mill?  I'm currently leaning towards buying a Cook MP32 with all the goodies, except of course the hydrulic log loader.  Instead it has a winch type loader..... :.

[SAW MILLER]

 I bought an LT 40 and the first thing I did when I scraped up the money was buy the hydraulic loader option.To me that is the most important hydraulic function for saving your back.Now that I see that you can get a lot of custom work,I wish I had bought at least the super.
    I have 16 acres but if I had a hunert er more I would dang sure own a mill. :Dwelcome to school!!

[Kelvin]

Howdy!
This is a question a lot of people have thought over.  You should weigh the amount of time it will take you to saw your own and be proficiant versus taking the logs somewhere or having someone come out to your place and saw on site.  I ended up doing what you are thinking of and bought a brand new LT-40 for $23k to build my new house.  I probably took about one year and a half longer full time working longer than just using store bought lumber, or locally made lumber.  If you can saw, stack and wait long enough to use it, than its a good idea.  I've had lots of shrinkage in my house due to impatiant use of green wood.  As it dries drywall nails pop and things like flooring shrink too much and trim comes open.  Its all pretty annoying, not to mention all the trim i've used about 4 cases of caulk on to keep the place water tight as it dries.  It cost me a lot more money taking 2 years instead of 6 months as well, and some of it was psycological as well.  it wears on you.  Its nice to do some things yourself, but heck, you are already building the darn thing!  On some level its like buying a concrete truck to pour your foundation.  Its easier to let the pros do it, but sawmilling and tool purchases are not things we do with all our brains working, so often we buy it cause we are crazy.  I should have waited for a good deal on a used one.  Most used listings like sawmill exchange have mills with quite a few hours on them, for not much off.  400 hrs of who knows what kind of maitinance and its $1500 less than new?  I would buy a mill that was about 10 years old and hardly used for about $16k, that would be a good LT-40 hydro, than you can sell it when you want and not be out too much.  I will have lost about $8k when i go to sell, which is pretty stiff rental for 800 hrs on my mill, but i do have lots of lumber stacked in my yard!!!
The other things discussed are often overlooked.  the equipment to go with the mill.  I have a kubota loader tractor, dump truck, trailer and a million other little things to make lumber with.  I've probably got $80k invested and i haven't barely started yet.  It can be done with lots less, but moving logs and stacking wood isn't easy anyway you look at it and the cheaper the equipment the more you better be a good mechanic.
Small manual mills are fun and can be usefully set up to cut long beams.  You might cut the beams and buy the rough lumber from amish.  Heck, around here they sell beams for less than i can buy logs.  white pine 1x12's are about $.60 a bd ft.  Its a mighty tough job to do, but its a good idea for some folks.  you just have to do some math.
Good luck and let us know how it turns out!
KP

[stonebroke]

Howdy!
  I've had lots of shrinkage in my house due to impatiant use of green wood.  As it dries drywall nails pop and things like flooring shrink too much and trim comes open.  Its all pretty annoying, not to mention all the trim i've used about 4 cases of caulk on to keep the place water tight as it dries.  KP

What some people do if they have some tome and lots of firewood is to close the house in and heat it a winter before finishing. Kind of like a whole house kiln. This will ensure that the wood is dry and stable before you do any of the fine work. It would be like camping out in your house. Hemlock is a fine wood and many if not most of the  old houses  in upstate New York are built out of it. If you use green hemlock it does weigh aton. But on the positive side if you put a nail in green hemlock and it dries  the nail is there forever.

Stonebroke

[Foxtrapper]

I built a 36x70 barn, a 34x24 sugarhouse and a 20x25 addition on the sugarhouse all out of green hemlock.  I bought all of that lumber, except the 34x24 sugarhouse, which I traded labor for(I cut the lumber for that, and for my FIL to sell, on his mill).  Now I want to build a house, and after cutting it myself, I don't think I can go back to buying lumber again .

[Haytrader]

 :
Is a sugarhouse like for a.......girlfriend to live in?    8)

[Foxtrapper]

:
Is a sugarhouse like for a.......girlfriend to live in?    8)

;D ;D ;D, naw...it's for making maple syrup in .

[HOOF-ER]

Kelvin , your comments make sense to me. Building a mill is more of a want than a need(in my case). All of the equipment and time, leads to substantial investment. An investment my budget could not afford. I will have a fraction of the cost invested that I hope to recover quickly. Just building a home or barn is very significant and something to bust your buttons about. Others are sometimes willing to work very cheap. Something I sure would look into.  Loren

[TGofWNY]

WOW!!!! Thank you all so much for your time and help. I'm not sure that this makes up my mind one way or another, because the replies seem to be split pretty well, with some saying yeah and some saying neah (i have no idea how those 2 words should be spelled?). BUT, at least I feel confident about hemlock being a good building wood- preferrably dried. Anyways, thanks for the replies and I'll keep reading and "attending class" here until I can know enough to make a decision. thanks.