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Started by DWM II, December 18, 2007, 09:06:25 PM

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DWM II

I am wanting to cut and build a timber frame for a 20x30 work shop based off of the high post cape in the book A Timber Framer's Workshop.
I have the logs lined up to supply the timbers for this project (free except for the transport from point a to my house--350.00). I havent cut a single joint as of yet, but the shop is being built for two reasons, 1. for the experience and accomplishment and 2. for the practice.

My wife and I are planning to build a home in the near future, 2-3 years. I love the look and function of timber framing but was curious as to what to expect as far as expense in construction. Stick framed custom homes in my area are being built in 100-120 per sqft. Some of the frames I've seen for sale from national timber framing companies are upward to 150 a sqft, (presumably turn key as well).

My question is mainly pointed to the guys like myself who own their own saw, had a supply of logs (whether they had to purchase or had on thier property) and the gumption to take on the BIG job. Where do you believe you saved money, and what un-forseen expenses did you encounter?

Stewardship Counts!

ljmathias

Hey, DWM, I'm doing almost the same thing you are- building a big barn right now (not TF) to do my TF cutting and assembly in, then a 16X36 TF workshop, then on to houses for the kids.  Sure, there are lots of hidden expenses, like buying more and more tools so you can be more efficient (that's a path we all seem to follow at our own peril) and all the hidden costs of roofing, siding, windows, and of course, all the utilities and plumbing (can't seem to convince the kids that outdoor facilities work just fine).  Can't beat the fun while doing and the sense of accomplishment when you get your first of each type of joint to actually fit together right!  You just have to decide what are the really value points for you: doing it yourself, having a finished product that will last centuries and not decades, having something that is totally unique to look at and enjoy for the rest of your life, and more; but saving money is probably not in the mix.

Lj
LT40, Long tractor with FEL and backhoe, lots of TF tools, beautiful wife of 50 years plus 4 kids, 5 grandsons AND TWO GRANDDAUGHTERS all healthy plus too many ideas and plans and not enough time and energy

Thehardway

Cost per sq. ft. will range widely based on the complexity of the frame and the enclosure/finishing methods selected.  How do you plan to enclose your frame?  SIPS, Strawbale, strap, cobb stone, etc.

As one who is currently building their own home I can tell you that framing is the easiest and cheapest thing you will do in the whole process be it TF or stick built.  The expensive things that add to the total cost are windows and doors, excavation, well, septic, power, plumbing, lighting, HVAC, floor coverings, insulation, roof materials and appliances.  TF gives you a great look and a superior structure but can add some unforseen expense when it comes to electrical, plumbing, and HVAC.  SIP's add to this complexity.

If you have all of your own timbers and the frame is essentially free you should be able to complete a no frills home for $30-40 a sq. ft.  Less if you are real creative, more if you sub a lot of the trades out and use premium grade products.
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DWM II

How about this, can anyone here provide a quote for SIP's? They are how I was planning on covering the exterior, They are also one of the things that are kinda intimidates me. No one around here has any experience with them, that I have talked to anyway. What goes into the design of them concerning the electrical and the plumbing? If something is left out of the design, can it be added after the sip's are installed?


  Thanks, Donnie

Stewardship Counts!

JGroebner

To Donnie, we do several SIP homes a year, there are chases built into the SIP's, but in the previous years we've begun to just leave the chases uncut, the SIP co. charges for them and what we've found is the electrician is almost always cutting new chases.  If you're having the mechanical chases cut before hand a really good Mechanical drawing is required and most of the time I can't justify doing a detailed mechanical drawing on a residential project.  Our company has exclusively used Extreme panels and if you have more questions, Brian at Extreme is very helpful.

Re DWM's ? on budget, it's a loaded question, I do some 20-30 fully itemized timber frame and log cabin estimates a year.  There are anywhere from 150-500 decisions that must be made in the pre-construction phase that will ultimately dictate the final costs.  We've done a full turn-key timber frame home for as little as $110/S.F. and we're just finishing up a $500/s.f. home.  If you're looking to save money/spend less it'll come down to material selections & layout decisions.  We've used a nice $470 front door and we've used a hurricane rated $5,000 front door.  We've put in $20,000 9' basements and we've done $4,000 frost footings.  Design & planning with a specific budget in mind is key.  Find someone to do a design that you can trust and be honest with your budget and a good designer/architect will respect you and your budget.

Jared

Thehardway

It's all about PLANNING!! And when you think you have it all worked out then think it through again.  Until you actually take out a loan or start spending money your greatest asset is time.  The beauty of TF construction is that it can sit cut and stacked out of the weather until you have all your plans worked out and are ready to erect it.

There are some differences between an all SIP home where they actually are your structural system and enclosing a TF with SIP's.  If your frame is well built and braced, the SIP's need not function as structural support.  This allows you to cut them for wiring chases, windows, plumbing, etc. wherever you desire.  In an all SIP home doing this would cause some severe problems structurally.

You can also use "stress skins", or "nailbase" panels which are cheaper and less structural.  They have their own set of challenges when it comes to hanging things like cabinets, pictures, curtain rods, towel bars etc.

Panel costs vary widely based on material and manufacturer.  Urethane panels are at the high end of price and EPS are at the low end.  Companies that do lot of advertising nationally usually have a higher price.  They may or may not offer the best support and warranty. 

If you have your own saw and logs, the Wrap and Strap or Larsen truss enclosure methods will save you a lot of money though they are time consuming and labor intensive.

Here are some things you can think about that help cut costs that I have learned.

Site planning:
Keep your driveway as short as possible without creating danger of washout.
Situate house for gravity flow septic if you are not on city sewer. (pump back and irrigation systems will get expensive)
Plan your well uphill from the septic and check setback regs. from house and boundaries.
Maximise your site for proper solar and wind orientation.
Don't clear any more debris than needed to build unless you have a way to dispose of it. (hauling and dumping fees can kill you)

Space planning:

Streamline the floorplan and traffic flow to eliminate uneeded walls and hallways. (halls are deadspace)
Combine rooms where possible.
Keep deck/porch space to a minimum. (they can be added later)
Place rooms with plumbing close together
Keep plumbing in a straight line.
Eliminate as many corners as possible
Keep roofline straight and as few possible gables/dormers
Remember form should always follow function.  If it doesn't function well it won't matter how good it looks you'll end up hating it. (This applies to spouses as well ;D)


Combine electrical/machanical systems when possible
Combine strucural and insulating elements when possible
If cutting costs never cut on quality of workmanship or structural materials
Radiant/Hydronic systems can save money if you DIY.  Requires a lot of research/planning to do right.







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DWM II

Thanks yall this is the kinda info i'm looking for.

Hardway, what is the wrap and strap and the Larsen truss methods that you mentioned?

site planning is not an issue other than the septic planning

radiant and hydronic systems arent used down here, heck, its Dec. 20 and its 70 deg. outside ???

I really like the double salt box and cape design so that kinda gets into the gable issue, but I also like our traditional acadian style that would fit into a regular high cape type design.

Thanks again yall, Donnie
Stewardship Counts!

Thehardway

"Wrap and strap" is a nickname for a built up enclosure system using multiple layers of sheetrock, plywood, insulation, plywood and housewrap, followed up by exterior siding or finish.   It might look something like two layers of interior sheetrock overlapping seams, nailed to horizontal 2X4 or 2X6's between bents, Ridgid foam insulation  spray in poly-iso foam or fiber insulation with plywood sheeting on the exterior followed by Tyvec housewrap then board and batten siding, T-111, hardipanel, hardiplank, or vinyl siding.

As I said before it can be labor intensive bu if done well provides a very energy efficient envelope.

Larsen trusses are basically 2- 2X3's that are routed out to receive small sections of osb to form a "web" in a "truss".  An non-structural wall can be built arourd the exterior of the home using 24"OC spacing.  They can be site built to any depth desired.  This allows you to super insulate the cavity and there is very little thermal bridging.  Sheetrock( interior) and sheathing (exterior) are then screwed to the 2X3 as you would normally do in stick built construction.  Wiring is simplfied as there are no studs to bore.  It can be cheap especially if you mill your own 2x and use scraps of osb from construction sites.

Just because you are in the south does not mean hydronic systems are unuseable.  Hydronic cooling is very efficient and silent.  A small chiller and circulating pump provides chilled water to valance panels at the eave or ceiling. The cold air falls through natural convection and a drip pan cover catches any condensate and carries it to a drain.  Small coils with low voltage fans can be used as well for spot cooling.  It is a ductless system and eliminates the cold uncomfortable drafts which result from conventional forced air systems.  Water is always more efficient at heat transfer than air.   PEX piping is much easier and cheaper to purchase and install than ductwork unless you have a break and are a sheet metal worker by trade.  It also never gets dusty or houses harmful bacteria and mold spores that then get blown around by a fan.


FYI,  I looked up my qoute on SIP panels and they start at around $4.50 sq.ft. for 8" R-31 EPS.   For walls you would not need it that thick.  Nailbase panels would be slightly less
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DWM II

I must admit I do like the sound of that hydronic cooling system regarding less forced air, less potential for mold and bacteria also sounds like a winner. I've never heard of anyone using one here, so how about lead on manufactures so I can do the research. ;) What the heck, I'll just google it. :) The Larsen trusses sound like the more economical way material wise. I would like to see a cross sectional dwg for a better understanding.

Donnie
Stewardship Counts!

Thehardway

here is a site with some good drawings of the larsen truss system enclosure. Fig.3 gives a very good cross-sectional view.

http://geocities.com/davidmdelaney/Larsen-truss/Larsen-truss-support.html



Norwood LM2000 24HP w/28' bed, Hudson Oscar 18" 32' bed, Woodmaster 718 planer,  Kubota L185D, Stihl 029, Husqvarna 550XP

DWM II

Yep, thats good stuff, thanks HardWay.

Donnie
Stewardship Counts!

JGroebner

We've used infill stud framing, we've used exterior stud framing, we've used SIP's, we've never used the Larsen-truss system for a couple reasons, having the shell of the home cantilever over the foundation looks very unnatural, the other reason being the extreme jamb size, going past the 8" mark adds to the window and door costs and limits the light coming into the space.  I can't say we've ever experimented with building our own SIP's using rigid foam and OSB, but there some examples of this and the framing techniques I mentioned in the book "The Timber-Frame Home: Design, Construction, Finishing".

Merry x-mas!  8)

Jared

DWM II

Thanks Jared, after looking at that book on Amazon I went ahead and ordered it (got a good deal on a used one ;)). It looks like it will fill in the gaps on some of the questions I have.

Merry Christmas to you as well.
Donnie
Stewardship Counts!

BandsawWarrior

Donnie,

I'm just in the process of locking up my timber frame and am doing the same thing you are planning.  I cut all my timbers but had a TFer do the notching.  The biggest cost surprise cost for me was the roof system.  I had about 5000 sq ft of roof including the veranda and covered carport.  My paneling cost and rigid foam was about $11,000 (I made my own paneling but still had costs).  Sips were priced out around $15,000.  I went with the first option because I had the paneling and plywood.  But if you can find a good source for sips I think they might be the way to go.  I had huge labour costs building up my roof system. 

just my experience

stick frames in our area range from 150/sq ft and up
Tf range from 200/sq ft and up 
Tyler Hart
T&N Custom Sawmill

ljmathias

Wow, Warrior, that sounds kinda expensive- are those US or Canadian dollars?  And the $200 vs $150 per sq ft is turn-key finished for custom homes?

Lj
LT40, Long tractor with FEL and backhoe, lots of TF tools, beautiful wife of 50 years plus 4 kids, 5 grandsons AND TWO GRANDDAUGHTERS all healthy plus too many ideas and plans and not enough time and energy

BandsawWarrior

Canadian $$.  Our area has had a major building boom over the last year or two.  $150/sq ft for plane jane stick turn-key finished.  Average house price is around $400,000 to $500,000 for a 3000sq ft house.  That price includes the lot.  72 houses of this nature just went in beside my parents place...all in that price range.  Standard .17 to .20 lot.   

We have lots of wood in our area but also lots of demand so timber prices are fairly high (for premium products :)  A timber framer told me a house he built 1.5 years ago ended up at $237/sq ft...very nice house though.  The house ended up costing $725,000, but the owner didn't lift a finger.  Stuff is even more expensive now lol. 

I think our area is high...but everyone is busy so it's hard to get workers

Tyler
Tyler Hart
T&N Custom Sawmill

FrankLad

We recently moved into our new timberframe home.  It has been in progress for a bit over a year now, with some trimwork and an outside deck left to complete presently.

Before going into this, we were told to expect a 40% savings since we were taking the "sweat-equity" route.  I think that basically means if doing most ALL of the work yourself and translates to the materials taking up roughly 60% of the cost.  (Some say it's 50/50  cost/material... so I'm not sure what the average really is.)

We subbed out the foundation, actual timber framing portion, electrical, plumbing (partial), and HVAC.

We did the stick framing (2x6 @ 16" O.C.), installed roof panels (SIPs), roof, siding, flooring, T&G, etc, etc. ...

Even after all the labor costs we still came in close to the 40% savings mark with the work we put into it.

Our actual cost (deck and final trim materials included) is coming in around $65/SQFT.  Final appraisal is pending completion of items mentioned above, but we have been told by our bank to expect at least $100 / SQFT, potentially more as this house is unique to the area and can't be valued based on the average frame/spec. houses nearby.  Either way we'll walk in with equity.

Working around the insurance business, I used to see homes come through underwriting valued around $70 up to $80 (pre-Katrina).  Currently new construction cost is something like $90 on average for our area (60 miles north of the coast).

Just wanted to share our experience.


P.S.  We purchased our timbers locally and had the framers come to our site, as opposed to having the timbers cut and fitted in a TF shop, then assembled and raised on site.  One of our framers commented that we saved several thousand dollars going the route we did (ie. purchasing the timbers locally, instead of going with a 'kit' or in-house-cutting solution).  Mentioned it having a lot to do with "shop overhead".

ljmathias

Frank- your values seem a little low even for Mississippi.  Up around Hattiesburg, we've been in a boom since Katrina with prices reaching $150 for custom and $130 for tract houses.  Prices are dropping some now and inventory is up some as well, but I would guess $110 or so is the going price.  If you built your TF for what you say, you made out like a bandit!  (but then that's what all that sweat is for in the first place).  Glad I got to see the TF under construction- saw two of your framers at the TFG conference last month- both seemed to be doing great.

Lj
LT40, Long tractor with FEL and backhoe, lots of TF tools, beautiful wife of 50 years plus 4 kids, 5 grandsons AND TWO GRANDDAUGHTERS all healthy plus too many ideas and plans and not enough time and energy

FrankLad

Lj,

The Hattiesburg & Oak Grove areas are relatively pricey compared to the Poplarville area, but I'm still hoping our loan officer is being conservative with his value estimates.

Glad you got to drop by.  The framers bragged on the red beans they had on one of your visits!

DWM II

Hey Frank, thanks for jumping in. I was trying to remember who it was in the southern Ms area who had a tf project going on. Glad to hear its in the finishing stage, how did the cypress do? Did the frame cutters like using it? Who was your timber supply? I was contemplating buying logs and selling off the grade lumber as the timbers are sawn out. Also, did you design your frame yourself or hire it out?
Thanks, Donnie
Stewardship Counts!

JGroebner

I get sick seeing prices like $100/s.f. or $120/s.f. and timber frame home in the same sentence.  Even with the most basic design in the most remote sites with ZERO homes to compare to, I have never seen a t.f. home appraised at less than $150/s.f. 

I highly suggest anyone reading this thread look into using Wells Fargo for the loan.  They have a specialty log home and timber frame division that takes into consideration the EXTREME creativity and uniqueness of a timber frame home.  I had a customer that wouldn't take my designs and give our home-owner anymore value than $115/s.f. to the home, I suggested wells fargo and after wells fargo reviewed my drawings they expanded the area from which to take comps from to 100 miles and attached a value of $205/s.f. for the same home. 

Remember people, we are the exception, not the rule and what we do is something that will last and provide a one-of-a-kind beauty that cannot be found in a traditional home and must be looked at from a level above custom homes.

Jared

Thehardway

Joel, I agree with your assessment entirely.  I read the question as what does it cost to build a timberframe in the DIY mode.  This means all the creativity and sweat equity coming from within.   I think it fair to point out that the actual cost of materials for timberframing when one cuts and or hews his own timbers is very low.  The cost per sq.ft. for materials and frame erection is quite low.  It is the labor and creativity that make the value of the home far greater than the components it is made of.  Add to this the rarity and the longevity of the home and it is in some cases priceless from an appraisal viewpoint.  They seldom get a fair assessment from a bank for loan but then again this comes in handy at tax time ;D ;D.  I would rather my home appraise for $50 sq ft when complete because I never plan to sell and can't afford to pay the taxes on what it will really be worth.

Stick frame houses on the other frame are usually a rip off and seldom worth what the bank will loan.

I might also point out that there are a number of banks that now specialize in loans on energy efficient homes which TF homes most often are now.  They will loan more on these homes and extend credit a little further because they realize the homeowner is going to be spending less of his income on energy bills and can afford a larger house payment than average.
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Raider Bill

Hardway,

I wonder what they are going to say when we show them our ICF/timberframe hybrids?
The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

DWM II

Jared, I am with you on the value of quality in craftsmanship vs. perceived market value to lay-persons. The original question I posed was in the context of the DIY stand point. I suffer with selling stuff because of what I know its worth to me especially when it pertains to something I built myself, and knowing what it would take to replace what I sold.

I would like for my children's sake for when I am gone from this earth that the TF home I build be valued in $200/sf range but until then I would rather keep the tax man at bay. ;)
Donnie
Stewardship Counts!

FrankLad

Quote from: DWM II on December 28, 2007, 04:08:40 PM
Hey Frank, thanks for jumping in. I was trying to remember who it was in the southern Ms area who had a tf project going on. Glad to hear its in the finishing stage, how did the cypress do? Did the frame cutters like using it? Who was your timber supply? I was contemplating buying logs and selling off the grade lumber as the timbers are sawn out. Also, did you design your frame yourself or hire it out?
Thanks, Donnie

The framers really liked using the cypress.  We started out planning to use SYP but the lead framer was happier we went the cypress route because he didn't have to clean the sap off his tools.  :)

Our supplier was "Frank's Sawmill" in Ovett, MS.  Their prices are pretty good.  We not only got our timbers from there (around 9k BDFT) but all ceiling and wall T&G and flooring.

My wife and I did the initial sketch of our house and let our lead timber framer do the actual layout which was then sent to a 3rd party for official 1/4" scale construction documents.

Radar67

I've done business with Frank. He has some fine lumber and good people working there. I met Doc (his led salesman and sawyer) at the Perkinston, MS WM Anniversary show.

As Frank Lad mentioned, he has some good prices too.
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J

ljmathias

So not to be too commercial about it, but just what are "good prices" right now for cypress timbers?  Either of you (Radar or Frank) got an educated guess?  Thanks- just trying to figure out future directions on what to use in TF for houses- my own SYP, or purchased logs of red oak or cypress.

Lj
LT40, Long tractor with FEL and backhoe, lots of TF tools, beautiful wife of 50 years plus 4 kids, 5 grandsons AND TWO GRANDDAUGHTERS all healthy plus too many ideas and plans and not enough time and energy

pineywoods

LJ, I sure hate you had to miss the gathering at my place. The other mill we visited, cuts mostly cypress, a lot of it beams.  There's another mill right down the road that does the same thing. Arlcon could fix you up with just about anything you need. Also I wanted to pick your brain about timberframing. My son has in the planning stage a timberframe hunting lodge   to be located just off the natchez trace near kosiuscko. Naturally, dad(me) is cutting all the timbers, likely syp. Son is a mechanical engineer plus has access to some wild talent where he works. Should be an interesting project.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

FrankLad

Quote from: Radar67 on January 02, 2008, 09:50:43 AM
I met Doc (his led salesman and sawyer) at the Perkinston, MS WM Anniversary show.

Doc is quite a character.  The first time I met him, I said "yes sir" or something (Way I was raised - I'm 26 and still insist on saying "Mr" and "yes sir" to anyone older than me. :) )  Anyhow, he replied " 'Sir' was my dad.  I'm just Doc."  :)

As far as prices, 6x6 to 8x8 are 1.00/BDFT... 10x10 are 1.10/BDFT... and 12x12 are 1.20 /BDFT.
A common size in our frame would be an 8x8x10, which ran 53.33.

I call them "good prices" based on two other quotes I got.   One was from a company called Cajun Cypress.  Their price was close to double Frank's prices.  The second quote was somewhere closer to Frank's, but still higher.  He was more local but he couldn't guarantee that I get the timbers in the timeframe I required.  So in the end it was Frank's Sawmill and we're very happy with everything we got from them.  Anyone interested in a complete price list, let me know via PM or email.



ljmathias

Thanks, Frank- exactly what I needed to give me a better picture of price and availability.

Pineywoods- I sure hated to miss it too.  Sounds like you all had a great time and learned a lot.  Did get a major amount of work done on my "big barn:" not a timberframe but will allow me to do the work in a little more comfort plus provide needed shelter for all my livestock (couple of old tractors, a newer tractor with FEL and backhoe, an almost new LT40 that I desperately need to get in out of the weather, plus a bunch of wood working and timberframing tools sitting open under my pole barn shed... not a good place to keep tools but I needed to free up space for my son and his wife to live for a short transition move from Maryland back home to Mississippi and guess what?  My tools were the first to go somewhere else in exchange for a bedroom).

As far as timberframing goes, I'm still in the "learning by doing" stage- read a lot of books, bought the recommended tools and am trying to develop some skill in making various types of joints.  Like anything worth learning, it takes time and lots and lots of practice.

I'm thinking of addressing my own needs by attending a school but time investment is holding me up- a solid week is more than I can spare what with a full time job and part-time sawing, timberframing and just building.  Maybe we could get someone to come down in the spring (after I finish up the big barn so we have some place to work) and give us a couple day intro to timberframing?  I'd be willing to pay a good chunk of the expenses and other costs for a teacher/leader if anybody down here might be interested in attending?  I was thinking a long weekend- maybe get people here on Th evening for organization or early Friday morning with jump-in-and-get-started, then all day Friday, Saturday and most of Sunday.  We've got a couple extra rooms maybe (haven't asked the wife about that yet- she's final arbiter on such). Thoughts?

Anyone else interested in such an opportunity?

Lj
LT40, Long tractor with FEL and backhoe, lots of TF tools, beautiful wife of 50 years plus 4 kids, 5 grandsons AND TWO GRANDDAUGHTERS all healthy plus too many ideas and plans and not enough time and energy

Jim_Rogers

I sent you a private message about your idea....
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

DWM II

LJ and Jim, I am very interested in a weekend of instruction and would be willing to help share expenses for an instructor. I was looking into Grandoaks but time is an issue, if I could use that money to do something close to home it would be very good for me. I work 4-10's so the schedule sounds like a winner as well. It also sounds like a good chance for a Southern chapter meeting (I missed the first one  :-\) and there was a few folks interested in a framing get together.

Donnie
Stewardship Counts!

pineywoods

LJ, I'm interested but with some reservations. Mostly depends on how the wife is doing at the time and that's not very predictable. Makes it difficult to plan much long range. We wouldn't need accomodations, have a motor home that's completely self contained. Most likely my son would be interested he lives in Brandon, fairly close. He's already told me he has no reservations what-so-ever about using more modern methods and techniques where there might be an advantage in doing so. Like his old man, he tends to think outside the box at times.
Like Donnie said, if nothing else, it's a good excuse for another southern chapter get-togather.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

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