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Is there a saw that can make tongue & groove on log?

Started by wkheathjr, December 17, 2007, 11:52:33 PM

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wkheathjr

Hello,

I am new here and here is my first post.  First, about me.. I am Ken and I am located in Eastern NC, and I currently own a campground business.  I am in process of planning to build few small cabins using a treated lumber from chicken house that I am currently tearing down to get rid of that eye sorer.  At same time, I figure I would build my own log cabin using a new 6x6 treated lumber since I am planning to build 2 stories and I figured that 6x6 would be more appropriate size for strength especially being located only 1.5 hours from the beach (hurricane alley).  Of course, I will consult this with an engineer first before buying anything but I do know 4x4 is suitable for a small 12x16 cabin.

What I would like to know is if there is a hand machine I can use to make a tongue and groove on 4x4 and 6x6 treated lumber horizontally so I can stack up them properly and at same time it can provide airtight insulation.  Ideally, it would be something like a router without being a big machine especially in middle of wooded area with so little power.

Any idea or thought?  Thank in advance for answering my question!!!

woodmills1

I bet you could rig a router to a peterson or some swing mill machine to do it
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

DanG

Welcome WK!

Any of the swingblade mills could do it, but it would be much easier to use a kerf/spline arrangement instead of tongue and groove.  You could set up a jig for any swinger and just run a kerf down the two sides of your timber, then insert an appropriately sized spline as you stack them. ;)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Haytrader

Howdy WK,

I know not the name, but there is a kind of styrafoam rope that was/is used in some log buildings that lays in a V groove. You could use an industrial size router with a guide and cut grooves in both the top and bottom and lay the rope between layers.
This would make a weather seal you desire.
Maybe do a search for log construction. Also check to see if the treated lumber you are talking about useing is applicable for human dwellings.
Haytrader

Furby

Welcome WK,
Personally I would NOT build with treaded lumber, cept for the sills.
As far as cutting the groove, take a look at this thread, it's not about what you are asking, but the concept is the same:
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=28542.0

Just cutting grooves on both sides and using a spline is one way to do what you are talking about.

brdmkr

Not so sure that a standard swinger would be the way to go with the groove.  You would have to make multiple passes unless you were going to use a thin spline.   There is a mill pictured in the thread that Furby posted that looks like what you're after.

Welcome to the forum.
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

wkheathjr

Hello,

Thank very much for replying to my post and after a quick glance before I went to work this morning, I realized that comment about not using treated lumber as a human dwelling is true because I was reading an article another day about Alkaline Copper Quaternary where government had milling companies change the wood-treating chemical from chromated copper arsenate to alkaline copper quaternary.  (Yeah, I bookmarked the article) but the point is that it doesn't appear to be safe to be used as a human dwelling.  I used to work for a chemical company 95-97 and alkaline is one of very corrosive chemical so I can imagine why and shame on me for overlooking that!  :-[

Now, I guess what really beg the question:  I live in Eastern NC as I mentioned and the climate down here is mostly humid during mid June-October and a very short cold winter starting this time of the year until Feb.  Do I really need to have tongue and groove in my "exterior" lumber if I go with square-type non-treated rough cut lumber?  I guess that is what I need to find out and I am going to look up for an answer unless somebody beat me to it on this forum!  ;)  If I do then I will probably need to figure out how to get this type of machine, but if I don't need to have tongue/groove on my lumber then I say to heck with it and keep money in my pocket!  ;D

Another option would be to buy a log from log dealer, but most place I have tried prefer to sell them as a package deal!  :(  So this is why I decided to look into making my own instead.

LOGDOG

WK


   Logosol makes a rig that can put a T&G on a log as well. For the size logs you mentioned in your first post it would be adequate.


LOGDOG

wkheathjr

Quote from: LOGDOG on December 19, 2007, 09:16:42 PM
WK


   Logosol makes a rig that can put a T&G on a log as well. For the size logs you mentioned in your first post it would be adequate.


LOGDOG

logdog, thank for replying to my thread and if I should decide to buy a machine to do T&G, what kind of machine being sold by Logosol does that?

rbarshaw

You could use a heavy duty circular saw with a dado blade and the saws guide and cut a slot the length of the 4x4 or 6x6 then in the mating surface and then insert a spline and fit the beams together.
Been doing so much with so little for so long I can now do anything with nothing, except help from y'all!
By the way rbarshaw is short for Robert Barshaw.
My Second Mill Is Shopbuilt 64HP,37" wheels, still a work in progress.

LOGDOG

Sure thing WK. Here's a link to the picture of the tool: http://www.logosol.com/_sawmills/m7/loghousemoulder.php

Now if you decide that the cost of buying one is prohibitive, they also have a forum on the Logosol site and you could maybe find an owner to do the work for you. Let me know if you need help finding the link and I can pm you with it.

LOGDOG

DanG

I'm thinking it would be silly to purchase a dedicated machine to make these grooves in logs for just one project.  I'm also thinking that it would be painfully slow to do it with a router bit, not to speak of all the trouble of rigging it up.  That leaves us with the option of using a sawmill with just a slight modification to do the t&g or spline grooves.  A swinger could do either operation by just taking a board from each side of the tongue, then making a couple of passes to form the groove on the other side.  A Mobile Dimension or D&L type saw could easily make a 5/16 groove at whatever depth you wanted on each side, to accomodate a spline.  The purpose of the spline would be to block any air leaks, so it wouldn't have to be very thick to serve that purpose.

The overwhelming advantage the swinger/MD/D&L mills have, is the ability to make exactly the same cut repeatedly, and with uncanny accuracy.  Another point is, that they can make their own jig by just leaving a flange on a slab.  After making all these spline cuts, you can use the same machine to cut all of your flooring, paneling, and siding, and then make a living after the project is done. ;D ;)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Don P

To answer whether you can use the logs flat on flat, yes you can. I've built for 2 log home companies that simply slabbed off the top and bottom of the log and stacked flat on flat. They did use the backer rod that Haytrader mentioned.
There were some problems;
Backer rod has dimension and is compressible, it really needs to have a shallow groove, preferably in the underside of the upper log. Without a groove you don't get wood to wood contact and the backer rod is compressed beyond its ability to recover. I don't like the idea of having a potential water collecting groove in the top of a timber if possible, I'm not a real fan of the spline idea. Google Emseal and look at their impregnated foam tapes as well, again I'd put that in a shallow groove.

When a green timber is flattened and then dries, the flat faces become convex. A stack of flat logs finally end up bearing in the middle of the wall and the edges inside and out tend to gap open. This sketch shows a freshly slabbed log with flat faces. As it dries the major check will probably be on one of the sawn faces. The faces dry as shown in the middle. I started using a power planer to make my groove on the bottom of the log. That gives a place for foam tape and for the crown of the log below. Making a partial depth saw kerf in the underside of the log about centered will encourage the check to form on the bottom.



Check with your building inspector  ;)

I saw one where a man stacked 6x8's, nailed a 2x4 centered on that, then the next row of 6x8. Allthread rod through the stack every 4' or so. He then chinked over the 2x4's.

wkheathjr

DanG,
Let me just clarify your comment that it will not be 1 cabin I am going to build.  I will build 20-30 small cabins for my campground business, 1 huge multi-purpose building in log cabin style and finally my first home.  After that, I might consider do a small cabin no more than 500 sq ft for people who would like one in their background or some small land in the mountain or wherever they desire.

Don P,

Thank for sharing this info and I will Google Emseal and learn more about it.

Logdog, I appreciate your respond and I think this is exactly what I was looking for!  Perhaps the best price I have came cross so far but I will look around just to be sure!  It pays to shop!!

DanG

Oh, I see.  I was thinking you were just building a house for yourself.  Maybe I missed something. ::)

Great post, Don P!  We were all concerned with HOW to do it, without thinking about IF to do it.  Good info in your post, as usual! :)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Bibbyman

The pioneers used any kind of wood that was readily available.  In our area it was oak.  But the ones that survived had a couple of things in common;  they were up off the ground,  had a lot of overhang protection like porches, etc,  and they had good roofs.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

karl

Ditto on Don's reply.

There are many flat sawn cabins in the North east, most use gasket that is adhesive on one side, it should be a closed cell foam so that it doesn't absorb water..... good caulking doesn't hurt either.

I have a friend with a cabin built of popular, he did as Bibby says- up from the ground, large overhang. It's 25+ yrs old now.

I've come to appreciate cabin/landscape screws over drilling for big old spikes these days. ;)
"I ask for wisdom and strength, Not to be superior to my brothers, but to be able to fight my greatest enemy, myself"  - from Ojibwa Prayer.

wkheathjr

Quote from: Bibbyman on December 20, 2007, 02:40:27 AM
The pioneers used any kind of wood that was readily available.  In our area it was oak.  But the ones that survived had a couple of things in common;  they were up off the ground,  had a lot of overhang protection like porches, etc,  and they had good roofs.

HMM so that's why it is better to have a surrounding porch around the cabin or at least for the most part to help minimize the risk of exterior logs getting erosion over the time??

Karl,  what kind of screw do you use?  Have you used any screw from GRK Fastens out of GA(I think)?

Haytrader

Bibbyman,

You description is true today, with any stile of construction.
We have all seen wood siding looking like it was put up on top and more weathered the farther down you go.

I don't see that a comercial rounter with a guide would a problem. A square timber with smooth sides should let the guide slide along without a problem.
Haytrader

karl

Don't know the mfg of the screws- I get them at local yard. McFeely's mail order has them(even has Stainless!), Fastenal probably has 'em too.
I see McFeelys has flat head ones with 8 point drive- never used them, only used the socket head version- they suck into softwood logs fine.

Had another thought on spline if you think you need it- I have stacked up to three blades on a skillsaw to plow a groove before- stagger the teeth so they don't hit each other. You could use the edge guide that comes with the saw (and most of us throw away with the box) to follow the inside edge of log assuming you are sawing the inside flat....otherwise make a jig with 1/4" plywood and an edge strip to guide the saw that can be screwed/tacked to the log....

"I ask for wisdom and strength, Not to be superior to my brothers, but to be able to fight my greatest enemy, myself"  - from Ojibwa Prayer.

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