Powder Post Beetles

Captain · December 17, 2007, 06:09:59 AM

Hey all,

I've got about 2K BF of Soft Maple that has been stacked for about 3 years. Unfortunately, it has been some good eating for a crew of powder post beetles. Is there any hope that a kiln cycle will eliminate the pests?? We actually like the tracks within the material and want to make some paneling out of it. What are your recommendations??

Thanks,

Captain

Louisianaredneck · December 17, 2007, 05:38:15 PM

Hey Captain ole friend here from Louisiana. all you have to do is heat the lumber to over 130 degrees to the center for a few hours, that will kill all the ppb and eggs. Hope that helps.

I have been making charcoal for the last few days. How about a steak?

Part_Timer · December 17, 2007, 07:57:00 PM

Captain I was just about to start a thread similar to this one, hope you don't mind if I run along your same lines.

I have a load of air dried red oak that is full of holes/bugs but won't fit in my kiln. I was wondering a person made a frame and put plastic around it and sealed it tight, cold you set off a couple of bug bombs and fumigate the little beggers? In my mind it works but lots of stuff works there that won't in the real world.

Ironwood · December 17, 2007, 08:20:23 PM

From Dr. Fred Lam at VT, the only research on killing bugs in wood was conducted in England in the the 40's. He told me 140 as I recall, I would err on the side of 150-160 just to be safe, that should not damage the wood if it is already dry. I usually go to 180 in my oven w/ dimensional and 200-225 with timbers (hardening doesn't matter), and have occasionally got point heat that scorches my timbers (whoops) probably 400+, sometimes my blower kicks off over 225 and, well there you go scorching point heat. Need to keep the bottom of the over free of wood debris or, well a flareup can occur ;D

Ironwood

Captain · December 17, 2007, 09:43:06 PM

Thanks for the offer Raymond, I'll take some quail on the side as well ;)

I was in hopes that is the news you folks would come back with. Now I've just got to figure out how to do it....

Captain

Ironwood · December 17, 2007, 11:10:36 PM

Large toaster oven! Make a box and insulate and put in a few electric baseboard heaters and a thermostat.

Ironwood

Louisianaredneck · December 17, 2007, 11:19:18 PM

Captain, I had some weevils in my corn crib a long time ago, so I sealed it up as good as I could and hooked up the exhaust pipe from my truck into the corn. It killed all the weevils but that was when gas was about .30 gal. I bet it would kill the ppb, don't know about the eggs.

Glad you liked the quails let me know when you are coming and I will have some ready. I have a couple of 30 gal drums of charcoal.

scsmith42 · December 17, 2007, 11:47:12 PM

Craig, are you riding or driving to Bike Week? If driving, stick the maple on a trailer and drop it off at my place on the way down. I'll sterilize it and have it waiting for you to pick up on your way back.

Scott

Captain · December 18, 2007, 05:14:34 AM

Thanks Scott, I'm driving but the schedule is a bit goofed up. My State Practical is the 28th of February as it stands now, and bike week starts the 29th. I'm not sure how that effects your plans, but we will talk.

Reid, I'm liking the big toaster oven idea

Captain

Brad_bb · December 18, 2007, 09:28:25 AM

Do powder post beetles(larvae) affect only green wood? Do they tough seasoned wood. I had my first experience with green sawn wood this past summer. i fogged the oak brace stock I had cut with Sevin. It seemed to work as the powder activity stopped. It was my understanding that once the wood was dry or seasoned, it was too hard for the larvae to chew? I'm guessing that they are more after the sap/softened wood that's moist? True or False?

scsmith42 · December 18, 2007, 09:39:34 AM

Craig, it doesn't make any difference to me; unforatunatly I'm not going to be attending bike week this year. Let's chat as you get closer to the day.

I can actually get my kiln up to sterilization temps within a few hours, so this should be doable.

Scott

Tom · December 18, 2007, 11:41:13 AM

That's a shame. I was looking forward to seeing you at Daytona or here at the house this year.

About the beetle.
PowerPost will infect new and old wood alike. The eggs can remain viable for up to 5 years in the board. Heat is the only proven method of destroying the eggs.

Rather than try to explain it all here, it is probably better described in documents of the Universities with entomology and forestry schools. Here is a pretty good write-up from:
Ohio:
http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/2000/2090.html

Kentucky:
http://www.ca.uky.edu/entomology/entfacts/ef616.asp

scsmith42 · December 19, 2007, 08:10:46 AM

Tom, those are some great articles; thanks for posting.

I'll have to figure out a way to get down the FL and visit with y'all. Not sure when though... the oil pump went south on my bike, and took the engine with it >:( I'm not going to be able to install a new one until March due to other priorities.

Hopefully I'll get to spend some time with Craig on his trip down/back, but will miss seeing you and Gael.

Scott

TexasTimbers · December 19, 2007, 10:57:34 AM

Reid, those temps sound scary to me. You must have some heck of a chamber to hit 400 and not have the whole thing ignite.

I see your basic description in post #5 but what kind of insulation are you using, and how big is the chamber?

Ironwood · December 19, 2007, 02:37:28 PM

Unit was desinged from 1/4" x 3' diameter 12' pipe "drops"from my buddies fab shop. It is 12' deep and is double walled, designed to be hooked to a boiler. Right now the water jacket is simply a flue from a wood burner below (hence the erratic temps) It was designed to be a vaccum chamber, steam chamber and an oven. Thus far I have only used it as an oven. It weighs 8500 lbs and is commonly refered to as "THE PIG" as in the pig is in a blanket of fiberglass insulation with rubber (YUP rubber roofing) to keep the insulation dry. No problems, just grab it with the forklift and set'er where you like and fire it up. :D I don't like things too complicated. ;D These are the only pics (of the door end ) that are in my computer right now. You can see the steam coming out of the chamber in the second pic. When it's cold it REALLY steams. Scorch'em DEAD.

Ironwood

gharlan · December 19, 2007, 07:41:12 PM

Reid
If you actually used the chamber with a vacuum pump would that also kill the beetles? Which would be faster cooking them or exploding em? Just wondering--gary

Ironwood · December 19, 2007, 07:57:36 PM

Good question on the killing at vaccum. I don't know. I do know after having talked with a few Entimologists (sic) that bugs physiology varies greatly and how they respond to enviromental temp and moisture variations is quite astounding. I won't get too involved here, but let's just say there is a reason that many bugs have survived for hundreds of thousands of years. It is surely a neat science. ME LIKES HEAT, big heat. I cannot afford to have returns coming in from around the country.

Perhaps Den Socling would have some input.

Ironwood

TexasTimbers · December 19, 2007, 10:26:13 PM

I think I have mentoned before about a local guy here who worked his way into the Neiman Marcus catalog and sold scads of "Green, natural rustic woven furniture". After nearly two years of doing so through various vendors, the bugs starting hatching.

He had used green persimmon. He should have run it through Reid's chamber sounds like to me. Of course it would not have been as cooperative when being weaved probably.

He uses "Dogwood" now. Has been for a long time now. I don't know if he is kiln drying it or not but the local paper has not published any scandals about his furniture in a long time. He seems to be doing quite well with the dogwood.

Den Socling · December 20, 2007, 07:54:15 AM

The combination of heat and vacuum definitely sterilizes wood that has been in a vacuum kiln. Because of the vacuum, you don't need as much heat but to get to 6% MC, I often go to 140'F at the end. I've seen many lifeless ants from large slabs. 8)

One of our customers who has six vac kilns shuts down for a couple weeks every July. They stuff all their chambers before shutdown and pull vacuum. They say that protects their red oak until vacation is over.

Ironwood · December 20, 2007, 08:56:53 AM

Storing wood does take a degree of viligence, inside or out NATURE (bugs) are always out to get my/ your inventory. There is a certain degree of degrade that occurs over the long haul (10-20 years) alot of people think they can store wood indefinately with out issue. I am currently working through about 5000 bd ft of curly maple from a guy who had just this misconception. Powder post, fortunately only got a small percentage of it.

Ironwood

Ralph_C · December 29, 2007, 04:15:57 PM

Has anyone tried using ozone to kill bugs in a kiln?

Left Coast Chris · February 22, 2008, 11:23:12 PM

If you are going to store wood in stacks in your wood shop or garage the heat will kill what is alive now but after you cool it off and put it on the shelf it could get attacked again and again. I spray with 15% Timbore borate treatment and once the hatching has occurred they do not come back and the storage has worked well. We have so many borrers I could not sleep at night without it.