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Author Topic: Ton to Doyle Scale?  (Read 5398 times)

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Offline dad2nine

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Ton to Doyle Scale?
« on: November 25, 2007, 11:09:44 pm »
Up until now I've been having delivered grade 1 and 2 saw timber from a few smaller family owned logging outfits by the 1000 sticked with the Doyle scale. I had another logging outfit call me Friday wanting to sell me grade 1 and 2 large diameter red and white oak saw timber by the ton. This is new to me and instead of asking stupid questions I just told the guy I would get back to him in a few days.

How do you convert ton-age to Doyle scale for a particular species? I need to get a Doyle scale estimate by the ton to see if it's a better deal by the ton or by the Doyle scale, since I already know what I'm paying by the Doyle rule and what I saw out of a Doyle scaled log. If it's a better deal, I'll jump on a few loads since QS oak moves pretty well.

I don't think this other logging out fit's driver will want to hang around while I stick each log and tally the footage.

Anyways thanks for your help...

Offline WDH

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2007, 12:51:05 am »
In my area, it has been 8 tons per MBF Doyle.
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Offline Gary_C

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2007, 06:19:37 am »
A small book I have gives the following conversions for Red Oak:

5500 lbs/cord

9150 lbs/mbf  International Scale

11,000 lbs/mbf Scribner

13,500 lbs/mbf Doyle

I have never used these conversions and they do give a disclaimer that weights will vary depending on many variables. I did make a rough estimate of some truck weights vs cords and came up with 5000 lbs per cord or 10,000 lbs per mbf Scribner but that was for smaller logs.
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Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2007, 06:28:15 am »
I've heard that 6 tons was a good rule-of-thumb.  Gary's 7 ton may also be a good number.  As said, lots of variables.  The biggest one will be in the size of the logs.  If they are big now, then the weight for Doyle and International would be pretty close.  But, if the logs are smaller, it would take a lot more weight for the Doyle scale to get 1 Mbf in the log scale.

What I would suggest is to have the logger weigh the logs, then scale it to see how that stacks up.  If this guy is a regular hauler, then I would scale a load every once in awhile just to see how things are going. 
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Offline Cedarman

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2007, 07:34:47 am »
When you buy by weight you take the measurement out of your hands and put them into the hands of the seller.  We buy by weight when we buy tree length cedar.  Scales can be fudged.

Since it is a lot easier to scale a load of hardwood than cedar, you can easily check and see if you are coming out ok.

Load a few of your own logs on a truck and take to a truck scales and see how  they weigh.  It will be a small sample, but will help you know the comparison. 
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Offline dad2nine

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2007, 10:13:03 am »
Well we grabed a fresh cut 30" DIB small end x 14' long WO and loaded it on a trailer took it to the truck scales up by the express way it came in a little over 4 and 1/2 tons and is about 600 BF according to the Doyle Scale. It has a pretty big butt flare and actually measures about 14-8" so it may not be the best log to sample.

I called up a buddy this morning who hauls a lot of green lumber, he told me a good rule of thumb is 5lbs per BF of green lumber. Some weighes less like cedar and some weighes more like water oak but it's a good rule of thumb to go by.

I think I'm going to pass on the offer from the other logging outfit, only because I have a good relationship with few of the smaller family owned logging outfits, I'm feeling kind of obligated to them, they have been very good to me. Plus I really don't need a few TTL loads of oak right now, I'm still working on sawing the TTL of cedar I got a few weeks ago - it takes me a long time to saw up TTL it's  lot of wood for one guy to saw...

Thanks for your help everyone

Offline Gary_C

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2007, 01:45:32 am »
Log scaling has to be one of the most difficult and controversial things about this business that you could imagine. Around here, most, but not all of the pulp mills have gone to weight scaling. And the old timers believe they get screwed over with weight scaling. They have universally accepted weights of 2.25 ton per cord for Aspen, 2.4 tons per cord for Maple regardless of hard or soft, 2.2 tons per cord for Pine, and 1.925 tons per cord for Basswood. They all agree that it is best to get it to the mill right after cutting or you will loose money as it dries out in the log.

So with weight scaling, it is best if you haul your loads in or after a snow storm. That way you can sell them the snow too, as it "all pays the same." However some mills that were able, have moved the sweepoff area outside of the scalehouse.  ::)

The other problem with weight scaling is the DOT can come into the mills and check all load tickets for the past 30 days and mail you a ticket if you were over the limit on any load.

The problem with stick scaling is what I jokingly refered to as buyers have short scale sticks. I know how to scale too, and it sure seems like all scalers just cannot reach all the way to the top of your load with their scale stick. I took a full semi load (15 cords to the top of all the 8 ft stakes) of basswood bolts to a sawmill and knowing I was watching him closely, he told me it was 14.3 cords. Then after I was unloaded, he handed me the ticket and said he thought he made a mistake with his calculator and the office would have to refigure it. When I got the check, it was for 13.1 cords. Needless to say I have not been back there.

Even with log scaling, as Ron has said, he can be "easy" or "hard" on someone on scale depending if they have tried to hide some defects or not.

Maybe some day they will come up with electronic scanners that will take all the human factors out of scaling. But until then, I think weight scaling is best for cordwood and not logs.   ;D
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Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2007, 05:54:35 am »
My understanding of pulp companies using the weight measurement is they want the green stuff. 

We also sell scragg logs and chicken wood by the ton.  Chicken wood is light weighted species like tulip poplar, and they shave it to be blown into chicken houses for bedding.  Both of these pay better than pulp.  Our pulp is mainly stuff that won't fit through the firewood processor and won't be taken in other markets.

Converting from lumber scale to log scale would be OK if you know what your waste factor is like.  I've always seen 6 lbs/bf in oak.  A cubic foot weighs 72 lbs, and there is 12 bf/cf of lumber, not logs.  The waste factor in hardwoods is about 50%.  That means that you will lose 50% of the weight due to bark, slab, edging strips, sawdust and oversizing.  That 50% factor will vary by log size.

I think you've made a good move by staying with the smaller companies.  Times are tough for some loggers, especially those that need cash for equipment payments.  When times get better, they'll forget about you and move on.  Those small companies will be around for a long time.
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Offline Brian Beauchamp

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2007, 11:39:29 pm »
There is so much variance on this that it would be very hard to say that you have X amount of BF per ton...if you know the average diameter of the logs, a close estimate may be given, but if you know that...and the log length, then you might as well estimate BF from that.

In this publication, there is approximately a 10-ton variation between a MBF @ 10" dbh and a MBF @ 36" dbh for loblolly pine:
http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p2244.pdf

Offline dad2nine

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2007, 09:05:46 pm »
The amount of knowledge in the members of this site is a little overwhelming.

Thanks guys I really appreciate you passing on your wisdom to a green horn

Offline Cedarman

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2007, 07:38:44 am »
Cedar is coming out of the woods in unbelievable amounts.  Every day someone calls with some cedar.  Guess who I keep buying from.  Those that brought me cedar during the times when I needed it.  Other mills are choked too and their loggers want to sell me cedar. 

Like Ron said about staying with smaller companies.

I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Offline WDH

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2007, 07:44:09 am »
In the wood business, relationships are critically important.
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Offline customsawyer

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Re: Ton to Doyle Scale?
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2007, 06:54:48 pm »
Yup we eat, live and breath by those we keep around us. That is why I like it here on the forum so much. ;D
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