how not to notch a tree - aka GA cut

[rebocardo]

I have seen so many people make this cut in GA, back 45 degree cut, including tree services. BUT, this is the first one I have seen with a notch   :D

If you can't tell by the picture and painted 2x4s under and over the tree trunk, it probably didn't fall where intended.

[Dave Shepard]

You will, in almost every instance of this cut, note a medium to rediculously high stump as well. I cringe every time I see that. Must be easier to drop trees when you don't have to bend over.


Dave

[leweee]

 ;D The trademark of the uneducated tree type feller. ;D

[fuzzybear]

That comes from "The idiots Guide To Tree Cutting"
   Step 1....drop start saw
   Step 2...apply saw to tree
   Step 3...apply saw to other side of tree
   Step 4...RUN!!!
   Step 5...call insurance company to see if they cover idiots  ;D

[Dale Hatfield]

Well it looks bad and really it has alot of faults. But the tree went just exactly where it was directed by the notch and hinge.
With that being said what is really wrong with this persons cutting.
Less than 70 degree notch. 70 to 90 being ideal.
Hinge thickness looks a little thick. Barber chair risk run high with thick hinge.
Hinge length is actually a 100% of the diameter plus . But it  looks like it was cut too deep. It should be in the outside  3rd of the stump. Being that this tree isnt of log quality grade wasnt affected by notch cut.On trees with side lean or weight it is better to have as much hing as you can get. As long as it is in the outside 1/3 of the log.
The backcut is not level to the stump.Problem being that at the angle you can undercut the hinge or over cut it.Resulting in more or less hinge than it appears to have. (chance of barberchair)
This cutter has a fair idea and can be trainned to do a safer and better job. Its all in the owners manual. But im sure its being used to absorb ol in the bottom of the saw case.
.
Some  of these things can be debated from east coast to west.Both sides have a point and work to a degree.
But what scares me more than the cutting style is the lack of information gathered from the tree. The cutter has no plan and has no idea what is going to happen and when or where to escape. The cut and run method cutter needs good insurance.

Dale

[Qweaver]

I usually cut my trees at about this same height for two reasons.  It makes it far easier to get the stump out with my little Case 450 dozer and I don't mind losing a foot of log so that I don't have to deal with so much butt swell on my small L15 sawmill.  Maybe not the best reason but worth it to me.
Quinton

[scottr]

I have seen so many people make this cut in GA, back 45 degree cut, including tree services. BUT, this is the first one I have seen with a notch   :D

If you can't tell by the picture and painted 2x4s under and over the tree trunk, it probably didn't fall where intended.

Rebocardo , did you find a wedge shaped chunk of trunk that you would say was the wood from the notch or do you think that the small slice near the trunk was it ? I've seen this same stump profile on another website called a farmers cut .    Scott

[leweee]

 ;D Farmers cut ??? Now you've done it. ;D Looks like an URBAN cut to this farmer :D :D :D

[Dale Hatfield]

I usually cut my trees at about this same height for two reasons.  It makes it far easier to get the stump out with my little Case 450 dozer and I don't mind losing a foot of log so that I don't have to deal with so much butt swell on my small L15 sawmill.  Maybe not the best reason but worth it to me.
Quinton

Quinton
Istead of leaving the  stump to push out with the dozer. Why dont ya cut close to the ground and let ma nature grow ya a new one.
As a logger its in your/landowner best intrest to cust as close to the ground as you can.
Most respectabale timber cutters can fell about 40 good trees a day. If that cutter leaves a foot of log on the stump on that same 40 trees. That =4  10 foot logs of high quality lumber that didnt get sold for either party.Do that everyday for a week and lose thousands.
I understand that most here are not loggers for hireand that a foot might not matter at first but think aboutwhat you have left behind.
As far as the swell is concerend it can be trimed of with the chain saw. I do it to every tree i cut. Makes it better when it goes across the debarker,as well as make all limb and knot cuts smooth with main stem for same reason.

As for painted 2x4 i dont see what ya talking about.

[leweee]

As far as the swell is concerend it can be trimed of with the chain saw. I do it to every tree i cut. Makes it better when it goes across the debarker,as well as make all limb and knot cuts smooth with main stem for same reason.

As a Logger we refer to that process as cutting the UGLY off the log. ;D

[Tom]

I've seen that angled stump many times in my travels.  I've given it some consideration and have about made up my mind that it is done by someone who has a fear of the tree falling over backward.  I know it is difficult to hit the hinge like that, but  if you can, there is no difference in the felling of the tree  than using a straight felling cut, other than wasted wood maybe.

Most who would do this aren't concerned with lumber and might be more interested in just getting the tree down and using it for firewood.  It is apparent to me that the more vertical felling cut is an effort to chock a tree that is falling backwards with a piece of the stump.  I don't know if it would work or not, but, it does have a logical twist to it.

Are you sure that isn't a Massachusetts or New Hampshire cut?

[beenthere]

Difficulty may arise if a wedge or two are needed in the back cut to raise the tree on that side, to get it to go past dead center or against a lean.  I wouldn't think this is a biggy, but if trying to pound a wedge in that angled cut (vs the flat cut), there is a chance to split off stump wood, thus losing the effect of a wedge.

It, to me, just wreaks of the feller being a real novice..and has a bit to learn yet.  I can't imagine the guy would get anything like that procedure out of the GOL (game of logging).  ;D ;D

Our county guys (back in the day when they did real work like that) would leave stumps along the right-of-way, and I wondered if they did so on a steep bank so they could visually see the kerf start to close to avoid a pinched bar, ...easier than if they were making a horizontal back cut. Or, maybe easier to drop a wedge in that kerf when it was slanted up like that.  I struggle to think of any other advantages, save for not having to bend at the waste (which is tough for county workers to do.... ). 
Sorry if I've offended anyone... : :

[Warbird]

Hmmm.  I've never done that cut but I have a feeling you guys wouldn't like my method, either.  Sure wish some of you guys were closer and could come over and show me how to take a tree down properly.  :(

[Tom]

Kevin has a lot of good posts about taking down a tree and has put some good links for safety too.  One way to find them is to click on his name and it will take you to his profile, then click on "This member's last post" and it will list all of his posts so that you can visit them.  It's almost as good as searching.  ...and sometimes better.    There are some videos linked and criticism given.  That's real helpful too.

[Ed_K]

Aww Now you donit Tom, Ma or NH cut  >:( . Really I was told by a homeowner that you cut it that way so it has to fall the right way  ;D . When removing stumps its easier to push the tree over then cut the stump off.

[rebocardo]

> do you think that the small slice near the trunk was it ?

That and the cut still attached to the first section of trunk. Going by the picture, they made the backcut/slope cut, the tree would not fall, so they started cutting pieces out of the front of the tree where you are suppose to have a notch, until it fell.

> Are you sure that isn't a Massachusetts or New Hampshire cut?

I am sure it isn't a MA cut, they don't cut trees in MA (without a permit ; )     I never saw anyone in NH cut a tree like that. Then again, there are not many farmers in NH, unless they have a rock farm.

[Dave Shepard]

I have had to clean up too many messes that were created by people who thought they wanted to get into the land clearing business. The M.O. is 3-4' stumps, back cuts that mirror the one in the picture, and trees laying everywhere, making cleanup about as difficult as possible. I have never seen an experienced logger or tree worker make a cut like that. I cannot see any anvantages, only disadvantages, especially when wedging is needed, as beenthere mentioned.


Dave

[Furby]

I've seen it a lot around here, most of the time it's on smaller trees.
3' + stump and dangerous spike left behind.
As Tom said, I also belive it is a fear of the tree falling backwards that causes folks to do it.
In the smaller trees say 8-10", I guess it could work. On a larger tree with a larger crown, I don't see it stopping a tree from going where it wants to.

[Ed_K]

 Ever get called to chip a pile of brush and find the butt ends pointing in every direction  . Even had one call where they tried to pack it down with the 4x4 pickup so it wouldn't look like a big job. "Shouldn't take but a half hour ta do"  >:( . My chipper is buried in the shed, Nope I don't have a chipper call so and so :D.

[Ron Wenrich]

There's lots of reasons not to cut like that.  I don't think you have as much control over where your tree is going to go.  The tree is standing on a point, not a flat surface.

But, you can't pull the tree by allowing a thicker hinge on one side or the other.  Its pretty much a hit or miss type of system.

I wouldn't want to try it in trees that are most likely to split.  We bore cut all our trees to lessen the likelihood of splitting. 

[thecfarm]

I can't really judge it,but if I was around someone doing that I would want them to cut on one side of the lot and I cut on the other side of the lot.I would want about 20 acres between us.Where's the GOL when you need them.I kinda thought the GOL was the same everywheres.

[mike_van]

Dale made some good points about whats left behind, it's gotta add up - I've known a few firewood cutters that would saw all the crotch's out & leave them, too hard to split they said. Not me, I use everything.  I've cut a lot of firewood trees just high enough so that when I cut the stump off it's another chunk of 24" wood. Always a flat back cut though. We had a guy at work that used the 45 degree slopecut - His nickname was cementhead if that tells you anything. :D

[mike_van]

Here's a pic. of me cutting off a high one - The reason was, everything below me was rotten on this Tulip tree. A free job for a friend that was building a barn within 10' of this tree, I'm just starting to cut the notch on that face, the flat back cut went opposite where I am in the pic. - 2 wedges, down she went.  He stacked & burned brush on that stump for quite a few days, the stump was gone then.

[woodmills1]

not known as NH cut exclusivley, but is known as the universal homeowners can't fall backwards, likley to die cut.  One dude here in my town was using that cut and he did die, took 6 tries but the 6th one worked.............crushed him....... :

[Don K]

Face it, there are people all over this world that don't know how to cut down a tree. The chainsaw is a universal tool. If you put a chainsaw in anybodies hands that has never cut a tree or saw one cut and lets say that that includes all of us if we were in their shoes, I imagine we would probably decide that if we started a downward cut at a angle that the tree should fall away from the cut. Makes logical sense doesn't it? The only thing is the tree doesn't think like we do.

I was lucky to have a grandfather who owned his own logging crew and I grew up in the days before mechanized cutters. There was no such thing as GOL and to a wide extent still isn't down here because of high production cutting for papermills and the fact there is very little veneer logging in the deep south. He had both black and white sawhands that made cutting any type of tree look like childsplay. After watching it done I knew a little more than the average joe. I am not the best but I get better with every tree. They pretty much fall where I want them without the aid of wedges.

A amusing story concerning teaching the falling of trees to some one who makes their living doing it. There was a local papermill in the late 70's (WDH works for them now.) that was getting into insurance liability woes and concerns with their company crew sawhands. They decided to bring in a "expert" from on of their other sites to teach men how to saw trees down. During the course of the day he proceeds to cut a big leaner pine on a down hill slope and wedge it back up hill so the skidder could drag (cable at that time) downhill. He cut and wedged and grunted and wedged until the tree fell uphill. Some of those black sawhands laughed at him and told him they could have three leaners on the ground uphill in the time it took him to cut one. Naturally this bruised the old boys ego and he proceeded to call him on it. He picked a big pine with heavy lean and told him to show him how it was done. The man calmly walked over and looked at the tree a second, fired up the saw and started cutting a funny looking wedge in the tree. People close to the expert heard him say that this guy was gonna loose that tree. The sawyer stopped cutting and moved around the tree and started cutting on the other side. Naturally the tree started downhill but then it stopped and started rotating around on the stump and fell pretty as you please straight up hill. The expert got his tools and left saying there was nothing he could teach them about sawing down trees. I know some of you will say this is a old wives tale but my uncle was a crew foreman and he saw it with his own eyes. I too growing up in the woods with Grandaddy saw many tops spinning around in the woods before falling. I thought that was the only way it was done. That was just the way it was done in the south. It is a shame I didn't learn the technique before it disappeared  to mechinization. and not everyone could master it and usually was delegated to trimming limbs in the loading ground with was a undesirable job in most opinions.

All I can say is to pray that someone will teach whoever cut that tree a better way to do it before it is too late.

Don