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Value of Sawdust

Started by Fla._Deadheader, October 22, 2007, 12:22:03 PM

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Fla._Deadheader


I have a situation coming up, where I can buy logs or the trees, and cut them into logs.

  I'm trying to figure out the losses, in sawdust value, If I rip this stuff into ½" X 3, as Tablillia. Tablilla is T&G used for wainscoting, ceilings, and siding down here. Usually doesn't matter to the mill, it all goes into Tablillia.

  This situation involves Teak. I haven't seen it yet, but, I'm told it is over 12" DBH, 2 years ago.

  If it's put into tablillia, it will bring $1.00 a VARA, which is 3 feet long. (Rounded out). It is also .375 bd/ft per VARA.

It will sell for $2.00 bd/ft as sawn lumber, in 1X or 2X sizes. There's less work involved in full size lumber, but, it may need to be KD ???

  Is there better money in the full sizes, than the Tablillia ??? How much $$ loss goes into the sawdust and extra handling ???  The Tablillia will dry quickly, so, KD MAY not be needed ???

  Don't think the USA is a good bet for Teak right now, but, I want to try a couple Pallets of different species, and see how it shakes out ???
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

I know that you have mentioned before that labor costs are
very reasonable down there, but, still your greatest losses
in sawing 1/2"by3" will be labor and handling.  If you use a
big swingblade to cut this stuff, you will lose over 40% of your
wood to kerf, comparing to shipping out 2" by 6" stock.  (!!!!)

If you were to cut 10.25" by 3" cants, then resaw these side by side, two or three at a time on a 10" swing blade, that is still a lot of work.   Even if you cut these 10.25"X3" cants and resawed them side-by-side, four or five at a time with a band saw, you would have some work, but it would be MUCH more efficient.   The kerf loss would be only 18% or so, too, rather than 40%.

Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Fla._Deadheader


Shoulda mentioned. Got a bandmill that will saw the blocks into ½" X 3".
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

jim king

For a kiln dried S4S product cut to size here is what I loose.

1/4 inch :  25% loss for saw cut, 20 inch carbide disc blade
                 8 %  shrinkage in drying
                 25% loss in planing
                 17% in trimming and cutting to size
                 AVERAGE LOSS 75% in processing

1/2 INCH:  The same

3/4 inch:    21% loss for saw cut
                  8% shrinkage in drying
                  21% loss in planing
                  17% loss in trimming and cutting to size
                  67% Loss in processing

Sawdust is expensive and then you have to pay to have it taken away.

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

So you take a 12"DBH teak tree, add two years. Perhaps that log will now give you a log which is 11" dia. on the small end.
Let's see what could be done with that:

A Possible Approach

        Step ONE:       Break down with a swinger...
              Skim off the top bark, then cut a horizontal cut 6" to make a 3" thick cant.
              This first cant will probably run out and have considerable wane one one end.
              This first cant from each log would be placed in a pile.

              Next, change to 6" deep vertical cuts and take as many 6x3 cants as you
              are able, working across the log - probably three.  Put these three cants
              in a different pile.

             As each log is cut, one cant goes to the first pile and three go to the other pile.

      Step TWO:
             Use the band mill to resaw these groups of cants 1/2" thick.

             The pile with wane would be cut short, before being resawn in groups of four or five simultaneously.
             The pile which are full length would be resawn in groups of four or five simultaneously.

End result  would be a bunch of  tablillia.
 
Will young teak dry flat when cut that thin, or would it be more normal to dry thick and then resaw?  How bad is heart check with teak?    Can't you come out better shipping this out to be used to make outdoor furniture, et cetera, in 5/4 and 8/4 stuff?
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Fla._Deadheader


Swinger wastes WAAYYYYYYYYY  too much wood, as sawdust.

  I'm trying to figure if it's better to cut and process full size, rather than cut, re-saw, process into smaller stuff.

  I really think the difference will be in KD VS Tablillia. It will dry to a usable % in maybe 2 months, with NO kiln.

  Breaking logs into 1 X 6, for example, only takes a couple cuts, then, dry it.  Then, shove it through the S4S machine. 
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

jim king

I wish sawdust mining was profitable.


Ron Wenrich

Let's see if I can make any sense out of this.  You have a Vara measurement.  I'm assuming that's a 1/2" x 3" x 3' (or thereabouts).  So, if you have a 9' log, and cut a 1 x 6, you could cut about 12 Vara from one of those boards.  You would have to make them a little oversized to get full measurement.  So, that 12 Vara would yield you $12.

But, if you sell that 1x6, you would have 4.5 bf, and would sell for $9.  But, you have additional KD costs involved.

Seems to me that you would get better dollar yield and a quicker monetary turn around cutting the Tablilla.  Your dollar yield is increased by 1/3, which should help in the sawdust department.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

QuoteI'm trying to figure if it's better to cut and process full size,
rather than cut, re-saw,
process into smaller stuff.

I have to admit, I have no idea what you are talking about in that quote.
At the start of the thread it seemed that the end game was tiny stuff.

If you don't want to take advantage of the swinger as a cant maker,
and take advantage of the carbide of the swinger's blade to help with
the abrasiveness of teak and teak bark, then you could...

Bandsaw the logs thru-and-thru at 1/2", then do minor sorting of these flitches.
You would resaw these sorted groups of flitches according to what they would yield. 
Some would  yield only one 3" width, some two of them, and so forth.  Your
workers would place a large "sandwich" of matched flitches back on the bandsaw
bed for resawing.

P.S.  I edited my last post some.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Fla._Deadheader


Sorry Ron, wish it were that way. The Vara (Vada) is length. Has nothing to do with Pulgadas (bd/ft).  Remember this cypherin we did a while back  ::) :D :D

  Logs are cut at 103" (3 vadas) in length, or longer, depending. I'm trying to figure which has better $$ yield from the same log, Tablillia or dimension lumber ???

  The log is cut into "Blocks" (cants) or cut into ½ X strips . They go to the moulder right off the saw, unless there is different orders.

  Dimension ( 1 X stuff)  should sell for $2.00 bd/ft or there abouts. I believe it needs to be KD. That makes handling off the mill and stacking, then, drying, then S4S.

  Tablillia ½ X 3 X 103" brings about $1.00 per vada, so, 1 piece brings $3.00.

  I'm trying to figure the losses in Sawdust from the same log, and the extra handling, as a comparison to get the most $$ from a given log.

  This make better sense ???
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

customsawyer

Before I go and get a brain cramp tell me are you doing break down with a swinger and then using the bandsaw as a resaw or are you using bandsaw all the way?
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

Ron Wenrich

Let's look at it another way.  Your 1/2"x3"x103" has 1.08 bf.  As dimension stock, you would only get $2.16 for your $3 worth of wood.  With some minor losses, you should get 4 of those from a 1x6x103".  So, that's $12 for what you can only get $8 for as dimension stock.

You're thinking that there is more handling, which is true, but it is lighter in weight.  And the extra handling would be offset by not having to KD the material.  To KD you will have to handle the boards at least a couple more times.

From a production standpoint, you'll have to make a few extra cuts.  But, if you're resawing 3" wide cants into 1/2", you shouldn't be making that many extra passes.

I'm thinking the better $ yield is in the thin stock.  The highest volume doesn't necessarily mean the highest $ yield.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Your $ per log is definitely better going with the tiny strips, but I would hate to do the job.
Don't you think that HOW you do all the little steps and how much labor it takes in the
real world is going to be your answer.    What system you set up and how you use your
workers could make the difference.   

My guess is that you will come out best with both
saws running
all the time - or as close to all the time as you can get it.

Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Fla._Deadheader


   smiley_sweat_drop smiley_sweat_drop smiley_sweat_drop

  OK.  First, I never mentioned using a Swinger. That was Phils assumption. It will not be cost effective on small logs.

  All sawing will be with a bandmill, a BIG one. I was getting a toss up number, in my paperwork, that showed either way COULD be feasible. I was trying to compensate for the loss of sawdust per 1 X 6 equivalent, if we did the ½ X 3's. Seems to be better money in the thin stock. Having never made this thin stuff before, and using $2.00 bd/ft as the target price of dimensional lumber, I just couldn't get the whole thing to look better one way or the other.

  Thanks for sticking with me on this. I know I don't get things explained well.  Y'all ought to hear me in Spanish  ::) ::) ::) ::)
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Time for an experimento, FlaD.

Might be the only way to pin it down from this point.

You're right that I assumed the swinger would be involved, only because I knew you had one.
I also know the abrasive nature of teak, at least the older growth teak.
With your labor costs, I still think it could be done that way, if you saw three logs at the time.
This could max out the use of all your equipment.

Sawing three small logs at the time, which are four vara/meters long could work.
    Roll three logs onto a pair of fixed bunks spaced seven feet apart.
    The bunks have three sets of notches which are two inches deep and 5.5" wide.
    One bunk is set at one inch or more lower than the other, depending upon your average taper.
    The bunks and notches remain fixed - you don't worry with fine adjusting.
    All logs are turned with the butts the same way and you don't fuss with them.
    If an individual log has much flare, etc., have a guy trim it some way before rolling on.
    Roll in a set of three, slam em into the notches with a sledge hammer, saw.
    No fuss, no muss.
      (If your logs are varying much in diameter, you can have one notch for a larger
      size.   I use a set of bunks with three different notch sizes to match 14", 18", and 24"
      and roll logs to the right set of notches.)

Doing this you would generate 3x6 cants from these small logs at a good rate.  After the swinger got an hour or two ahead making cants, then you would start the band and run both. On the other hand, if your labor wasn't in place, you could run the swinger one day to make cants, then the next day run the bandmill to make the toy wood.  If the band ran out of  cants, then the bandmiller could switch to sawing on his own briefly, but that would require an alternate system for both the bandsawyer and his helpers to understand as "Method B."

P.S.  Neither a band, nor a swinger is very efficient on small logs, except a reciprocating gang saw, or
        some other gang, and those machines are not very fast, unless you go mega-bucks.  Also, only
        a fully automated carousel resaw is efficient cutting "toy wood."
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

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