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I cannot figure out this hickory

Started by Lanier_Lurker, October 19, 2007, 11:30:56 PM

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Lanier_Lurker

With Lake Lanier in the pitiful condition it is in this is a wonderful time to walk around the edge of the exposed lake bed, look at trees and stuff, and generally goof off.

I came upon a huge pile of hickory nuts that had dropped off a rather large hickory tree with a crown that veered out over the exposed lake bed.  The nuts were fairly small, and they were escaping their husks with little problem since I was finding husk-free nuts everywhere.  Their small size made me think they were pignut, but the fairly thick and easily escapable husk made me think mockernut.  I know I may have to go back and get some pictures of the bark and leaves, but I'll go ahead and start this identification thread anyway.  Here is a picture of the nuts.


beenthere

Looks the size of our shagbark hickory.  Pic of the bark?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Brian Beauchamp

I agree...either shagbark or shellbark hickory.

SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Brian Beauchamp

...didn't even notice that quarter in the pic, lol...shows how observant I am sometimes...way too small for either I had mentioned before.

WDH

It is not pignut.  I am betting it is mockernut.  However, it could be southern shagbark hickory, Carya ovata var. australis.  However, the shaggy bark would be distinctive and diagnostic, and I bet you would have noticed that. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

The husk looks a little too thick I think, SD.  The dehiscence looks to be too good for ovalis.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

LeeB

When you tree smart folks get it figured out somebody please post som pics so  can positively identify at least one of the many different hickories on my place. :P
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

WDH

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Dave Shepard

Looks like our shagbark up here.


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Lanier_Lurker

Would ovalis have husk thickness and dehiscence characteristics that are similar to glabra?  If so then that would seem to rule out ovalis (although I would love to find one around here).

I glanced at the tree, and the bark is definitely not that of a shagbark.

I'll wander back down there and try to get some pictures of the tree. 


WDH

Today, many dendrologists consider red hickory (Carya ovalis) to be a variety of pignut (Carya glabra).  Some manuals refer to red hickory as Carya glabra var. ovalis.  The husk thickness and dehiscence characteristics of the two are more similar than different since they are essentially the same species.  The bark of pignut is very tight and the bark of red hickory is more scaly, but nothing like the big loose scales of shagbark or shellbark.  Red hickory is, however, decidedly scaly, but the scales are much smaller than shagbark.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

Ditto to what WDH said, there are also a couple other latin names floating around.


C ovalis var. ordata

C leiodermis

C pallida

The last two are distinct from the first, but pignuts as well.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

LeeB

WDH, ok teacher, give me some homework.  :D I was thinking as I opened this thread about my post last night and that I should be the one taking the pictures. i don't know how much good they will be right now as the leaves have started to turn and are falling off. We basicly had no nuts this year due to a late freeze. I,ll have to wait till next year to match nuts to tree.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

WDH

Bark pics are very good in IDing hickory.  Also, the number of leaflets and if the leaf stem is hairy or smooth.  If you take pics, look for the number of leaflets and the leaf stem (rachis) condition.  Nuts are a big plus, but not critical.  The stoutness of the branches near the tip is another important feature.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Lanier_Lurker

Ok, I'll start with some bark pictures. 

The leaf pictures I was able to get are maddeningly inconclusive.  There are 5 and 7 leaflet leaves - and I cannot tell which occurs more frequently.

Also, I think I may need better bark pictures.  Now that I have figured out some of the features on my camera I feel like I can get better pictures.  But, I'll give these a try.  WDH may spot something that is conclusive.




WDH

That bark is mighty tight, mighty mockernutish ::).  Doesn't look much like red hickory, Carya ovalis or Carya glabra var. ovalis whatever flavor you like.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

limbrat

So the nuts are small but there is a lot of them. Could the tree have been stressed and decided to put out as much seed as could?
ben

WDH

Good point.  That could very well be the case.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

BrandonTN

Lets see some stems on the branches.  ;D
Forester, Nantahala National Forest

IL Bull

Looks like a mocker nut.  Have tried eating them.  Shag bark and mocker nut are both sweet enough to eat.  The rest of the hickories are bitter. :o
Case Skid Steer,  Ford Backhoe,  Allis WD45 and Burg Manual Sawmill

WDH

I have too, IL Bull.  Mockernut and shagbark.  Tastes different than a walnut or a pecan.  Hard to get the meat out of the shells, though ;D.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

LeeB

Well, I was a gonna take some pictures today but the rain kinda dampened my enthusiasm a little. Maybe tommorow.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

woodbeard

So, how would one distinguish bitternut hickory from mockernut based on the bark?

WDH

From my experience, the bitternut bark has diamond shaped ridges like mockernut.  However, mockernut ridges will generally be heavier looking, thicker, protrude more, and have a more robust look.  In many of the bitternut that I have seen, the diamond shaped ridges are there, but they are thin, looking like they have been laid with glue using cardboard.  It looks almost smooth, but you can see the ridges and the patterns they make, much more subtle than mockernut.

The buds are very different.  Bitternut buds are very graceful and sulfur yellow.  They are very distinctive, one of a kind.  A little fuzzy.  They are shaped more like a duckbill (valvate) with two sides that come together.  The mockernut bud is big and fat (big as the end of your little finger).  Bud scales are shiny, not fuzzy, overlap (imbricate), and are very brown.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

All this diamond ridge talk, reminds me of butternut and white ash.  ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

woodbeard

Ah, so bitternut is the one I tend to confuse with ash at first glance.
The butternut around here is much different looking. It does have a diamondish configuration to the bark, but spread out much more than black walnut or ash, with many wide, flat areas.

SwampDonkey

I only brought it up because of the diamond patterns.

Do you saw much butternut woodbeard? or white ash? I like both and need to source some more local butternut for projects down the road (time-wise). On the farm we sold we had quite a few butternut, even growing out on the hardwood ridge and mostly along our streams. Not used to seeing it to far from the river. A couple weeks ago I saw some nice ones up by a cell phone tower, growing on an abandoned farm field. It was abandoned a long time because the softwood and poplar was 12-20 inch at breast height. In a good market trend, those are money trees, with the current markets....I'd rather the worms ate them.  ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Greg

Any hickory with tight bark like that I've always just called "pignut".

Haven't heard of mockernut, in these parts anyways ???
Greg

woodbeard

QuoteDo you saw much butternut woodbeard?

Whenever I can. It's getting wiped out around here by something. Whenever logs of it turn up at the local log yard, they are usually kinda rough, and sell as #3 mixed hardwoods at $180/mbf, so I snatch up whatever I can.

WDH

Quote from: Greg on November 12, 2007, 10:23:18 AM
Any hickory with tight bark like that I've always just called "pignut".

Haven't heard of mockernut, in these parts anyways ???
Greg

Google Carya tomemtosa
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

I always considered the forests of Ohio about the most genetically diverse area in terms of hardwood species in the eastern US. It's also on the edge for ranges of many species of the far north or the south. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SPIKER



here is a pic of pig nut showing the diamond paterns it is ~ 20" dbh

this tree's nuts are very thin skinned with a raised edge on the husk sections.   no pics of these nuts maybe tomarrow I'll take camera & get some shots of the nuts on the hickerys

mark m ;D
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

ARKANSAWYER


  Looking at the nut it is a Mockernut Hickory and the bark confirms that.  In hickorys I have noted that thick husk nuts taste better (Shagbark, Shellbark and Mockernut) and thin husk like Pignut, Nutmeg and Black.
  LeeB you will mostly have mockernut in your area unless the bark looks like a white oak then it is a shagbark.
ARKANSAWYER

LeeB

Thanks Arky. You know, the invite to come by is still open, along with the offer to throw some steaks on the grill.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

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