We Need to Revolt

[Qweaver]

The stupidity of laws at all levels of government are mind boggling.  The rules in one state are exactly opposite to the rules in another state and state rules often contadict federal rules.  When I rebuilt my septic system in Texas, I bought the best book that I could find and designed my system to be the best that I could with the amount of land that I had to use.  I feel confident that the system will be working fine for more years than I will live.  But did it meet the current code?  Not even close and it was only because I had an existing system that I was allowed to "repair" it. 
Now here in WV with excellent soil and plenty of land that I need to make a really effective system...I still run into the bureaucratic nonsense.
I dig a 5' hole for the inspector and he looks eveything over and gives me instructions for laying out for the perk test and all seems to going well and then he states "Your fields have to be 100' from that water tank". 
The tank that he is referring to is a 2100 gal plastic tank catching rain water to use for flushing and washing.  It sets on the surface at an elevation about 10' above and 70' from the fields. I ask how can my fields possibly contaminate this tank.   His reply, "I just have to follow the rules" And the rule in this case does not differentiate between a water supply on the surface or in the ground".  Don't get this wrong.  We know this inspector and he is a good guy.  This is not his fault.  It's our dependence on the government to make all our decisions by setting up rules that can not possibly apply well to all cases.  We can't use ungraded lumber or design our own house or pull two trailers or a zillion other things without getting government approval that is based on an often poorly thought out set of rules.  Shame on us for letting them do this to us.  BTW, the distance turns out to be 50' and I am OK.  But what if I only could get 40'.  A stupid rule, that serves no purpose in this case, would require me to move that tank or the field to a less desirable location.   

[Dan_Shade]

i think we're past the point, we all just end up bending over and taking it.  our governments are way too powerful, and doing minor things that impact no one but yourself can turn you into a criminal.

[tcsmpsi]

Sure.  Go ahead and revolt.  See how many rules you break then.  And, what 'punitive' actions await in store.   ;D

Of course, it is easy today to quash any revolutionary action.  You'll be donned the hat of "terrorist". 

Aye, but it is sad to see us become the very thing our forefathers fought so courageously against. 

[Dan_Shade]

sometimes I wonder what it would be like to be truly free.  mankind seems to have a problem when his neighbor doesn't want to do the same things he does.  I say to each his own.  I'm a libertarian at heart, and it baffles me how anyone cannot be a libertarian. 

I do understand building codes, but I think that it should be easy to get a waiver for a building code if you're doing your own work.

[Greg]

The reason those stupid rules are there is because various folks thought it was just fine to directly dump their septic waste lines into a stream, or directly over an aquifer that provides drinking water for you and probably 1000 other families. All it takes is one irresponsible idiot to ruin it for everyone. Sorry I'll side with the stupid rules camp when it comes to protecting water quality.

Unfortunately the codes/rules are often very rigid and this makes life difficult for someone trying to do anything non standard, or (gasp) even better than standards. Even worse, many inspectors who have to enforce them can be about as unmotivated and halfwitted as they get. I've experienced this first hand.

I have a friend in Northern Ohio who designed and engineering a several acre man made wetland to filter his greywater. It was vastly superior to any other "preferred" system, but it literally took months of paperwork, court appearances and legal fees to convince the local authorities to allow his system. That is really ashame.

Hey I agree government intrusion is way out of wack especially at the higher/federal levels, but local entities and codes absolutely do need to be in place, so I think you are barking up the wrong tree/incorrectly linking two completely different issues into one.

Greg

[tcsmpsi]

sometimes I wonder what it would be like to be truly free.  mankind seems to have a problem when his neighbor doesn't want to do the same things he does.  I say to each his own.  I'm a libertarian at heart, and it baffles me how anyone cannot be a libertarian. 

It is a bit of a baffle, ain't it?  It is not quite so baffling though when one notes how many folks consider the key word of "Libertarian" as 'liberal', rather than 'Liberty'.   :D

You're right, Greg.  Have to keep those streams clear of natural by-products of life, for industrial dumps.   :D

[beenthere]

I don't have the same view or take as does Greg.
When our state put tight controls on septic systems, and invented "inspectors", the main purpose was to control urban sprawl...they couldn't do it directly, but using the "soil has to perk" rule, they eliminated most development unless a public sewer system could be reached.
Then the advent of a mound system (constructed drain field with a pump that was very expensive) became  available, those with big $$'s could build but the less fortunate couldn't afford it.  

I recently had to replace the entire septic system and it was sad to see how they(we) had to bow down to the "inspectors" and all the little inuendos the installers had learned to get him to go along with their plan and installation. These inspectors are truly prima donnas.  The second inspection (following the perk test inspection) involved a second inspector who was difficult to get along with, and it was suggested that I, as the homeowner, disappear when he showed up. Apparently he likes to put on a show for the homeowner, to let it be known how tough and thorough he is. I disappeared, and in 5 minutes he was here and gone...no problem, and what he was "inspecting" had already been covered up. Go figure. (maybe they palmed him some money, I don't know  )

But, our elections now are all about buying votes...be it welfare, social security, health care, etc.  Pass on the federal or state dollars, and get the recipients to vote for you next election.  It's most about money and greed the voters demand.  IMO  ;D

[sharp edge]

Government is find when it comes to building airplanes, you can make one and fly it all over the place. Can even fly it over wet lands. ;) But when its comes to working with wood is when the gov. gets bad.  I think Banks and Insurance co. are behind it.

[Ron Wenrich]

I think there are 2 different issues here.  The first is the need for some kind of protection from your neighbors, so that leads to zoning or regulations on land use.  I've used that to protect myself from my neighbors who are deathly afraid of the dark.  Lots of lights.

But, the bigger issue is micro management at the macro level.  That's where you have a law that has to be obeyed, no matter what.  In this instance, if the inspector was given leeway, a better system could be used.  Law implementation should be ...do no harm, instead of my way or else.  Laws cannot be written for every application. 

[Don P]

I've had dealings with those southern county septic "gods" BT, it was something else to witness. I clipped the corner of a mound with a wheel, probably a good 6" into the sacred zone and was told the house might be failed. Actually your subbed out third party building inspectors are pretty impressed with themselves too. I would never say corrupt but I'm sure glad to be too dumb to take a hint  :D.

Actually the law does give them considerable judgemental leeway. The local jurisdiction's attorney then decides to be risk averse for the sake of the taxpayers, that's us, and tells them to go by the book. Catch 22, we did it to ourselves  :-\.

But hey, raise the flag, I might be there with my musket and my bag  .

[mike_van]

Q, it's up here too, so many hoops to jump through & more codes  to follow than you could imagine - Here's a beauty - The chimney I just built, I had to dig a 3x3 ft hole 4 ft deep for the foundation - Had I followed all the rules, I would have started with an Inland Wetlands permit because it was 150' from a brook. Follow that up with a zoning permit, because it's changing the footprint of the barn. Right then, I would have to get the 4 1/2 acres perc tested, because there isn't a current one on file. Minimum of 30 days gone by, $100+ in fees, if it passed, I could then go get my 20.00 building permit.  Just to dig that little hole.   Downtown, they just adopted an "architectural review board" for the village district - Glad i'm not a townie.  Last year, it was "ridgeline protection" You can't do anything that changes the look of a hill or mountain top, because some tourist might find it offensive to look at.  I was born 100 years too late. 

[Handy Andy]

  I'm proud to say my ancestors took part in the last revolution, and wouldn't they be sore if they came back and saw what we made of this free country.

[Riles]

I'm putting up a pole barn for the new tractor. Anything bigger than 12 feet on a side needs a zoning permit ($30) because I'm outside the city but in the ETJ (Extra Territorial Jurisdiction). That means the people I can't vote in or out get to decide what I do on my land. Took the guy half an hour to decide the pole barn wasn't going to be within 10 feet of the property line (on my 35 acres). Then it was the building permit ($80), not sure what they're going to inspect, it's six poles supporting a roof. They refused to approve it at first, because I didn't have the paperwork from the health department stating the pole barn wasn't on the septic field (which hasn't been put in yet). The septic permit was $259. At least I didn't have to submit engineered plans because the barn was less than 400 square feet.

[Kcwoodbutcher]

The biggest reason around here for an inspection or permit is to make sure the building gets on the tax roles. I have a city limit line running through my property. Weird, but it seems like I'm the only one who know the actual physical location of the line, inspectors sure don't. One city is a real pain in the a-- when it comes to inspections , the other is much more realistic and since I'm the owner/builder he lets me get away with some variances. One time all he wanted was a letter for the file stating I knew the risks of not running a soil compaction test. Guess which one I use when I need a permit?

[TW]

From a Finnish horizon

We have the same kind of problems too.

There is nothing bad with regulations if they have a purpose and make sence.
I think that the cause of our  problem is that the lawmakers shut themselves out from the people that they are passing laws for. In their little world they know only other wealthy and powerful people so they have no idea about what happens to the ordinary people, and they do not want to know it either. The big industry lobbing groups do not make the thing better.

So the solution would be to prevent the formation of a political class in community, but how....


Just my personal oppinion. I am young and not very experienced so do not take it too seriously.

[tcsmpsi]

Well, with that particular insight, perhaps the "young" ought to go ahead and take the reins.   ;D

That most legislators are, or become removed from real life is, indeed, one of the hard truths.

[PineNut]

All the more reason for term limits. Let them serve their limit and then get out of office and live under the mess they create. But what career politician will let anything get by (like term limits) that will reduce their power?

[Bibbyman]

What gets me is there are laws and regulations that people directly vote on – like local taxes, incorporation into a city limit, etc.  Then there are laws that are passed by our elected representatives.  But then there are all the regulatory agencies, federal, state and local, the just seem to make things up based on their own agenda.  Then we have the courts that think they are the ones making the laws not interpreting them.

About 10 years ago our county commissioners got the idea to put in planning and zoning in the county.  They were suppose to have public hearings but somehow they managed to have them when and where only a few new about them.  It got out and an organized committee was formed to oppose it.  They held public hearings in at least a half dozen small towns in the county.  The commissioners were invited to speak and hear comments about planning and zoning.  It was as close to a lynch mob as I've ever witnessed.  Old gummers were yelling and shaking their fists, "That's why we fought the Nazis!".

At the same time there was the new sewer regulation that was to go into effect.  The old timers wanted to know when we voted on sewer regulations.  We didn't.  It was new state regulations, likely to comply with some federal program.

The measure was defeated by an overwhelming margin – something like 9 to 1.

We had seen the corruption in the county's larges town where a few controlled the planning and zoning to their advantage.  Say Joe Blow had property at the new intersection along the by-pass and wanted to put in a gas station.  No, the property was zoned agricultural.  He may struggle for years and not be able to get it rezoned. But low and behold,  once it was sold to another person, it could be rezoned and a gas station would go in. 

In the end,  we still lossed.  The county population has grown to the point where we're a class 1 county and that mandates planning and zoning.     

[KarenKae]

Now you know all of you fine folks are welcome to come and visit with Arky.  But we don't want you moving here.   As far as I know, Marion County, Arkansas is one of the last free places in the world.  People here live in buses. I live in a one room, dirt floored, tar paper shed, but Hey! it has the DSL.
You DO have to have a building permit, $200, but it comes with all the guidelines for your building and who, what, when and where for getting 'er done.  Very reasonable people.
I think they were doing all that before, just started charging a bit more for the permit as there were so many people MOVING here, it was mostly a deterrent.  :D
Since most of the habital land already has SOME kind of septic and dwelling place, most folks just remodel and there is really no limit on that.  Biggest problem we have is strangers come here, buy 10 to 30 acres and then clear cut the timber, leaving huge scars on the land, then put the bare ground back up for sale.  NEVER lived here, don't live here now and never intend to live here.  NOW we can see a purpose for strict land management, but freedom is still more important, so nothing is done.  Sure makes you want to cry when you see good logs laying in a ditch, burning.   :'(

[pigman]

Now you know all of you fine folks are welcome to come and visit with Arky.  But we don't want you moving here. 

Now I have a dilemma. :(  When I sell the farm, I don't know whether to move to Fla. or to Ark. It seems at both places the locals seem to welcome new people. ;D ;D ;D

[Bibbyman]

Mary's sister has a take on city people that move to the country.  She says they want to get out of the city but the first thing they do is put up a street light and then want the roads paved, district water,  fire protection, Sheriff's Department to parole the roads, and then get mad at the neighbors when they go down the road with their combines, etc.

[Mooseherder]

Now you know all of you fine folks are welcome to come and visit with Arky.  But we don't want you moving here. 

Now I have a dilemma. :(  When I sell the farm, I don't know whether to move to Fla. or to Ark. It seems at both places the locals seem to welcome new people. ;D ;D ;D

:D :D :D :D

[mike_van]

Mary's sister has a take on city people that move to the country.  She says they want to get out of the city but the first thing they do is put up a street light

Bibbyman, some years ago we had a job to do that! Small lake community, TWO streetlites - The couple had just moved up here from the Bronx - With this wicked NYC accent, the lady said "Its so daalk here, how can you stand it?"  :D :D

[KarenKae]

 :D I was just kidding. We welcome all good people who want to live free and mind their own business.
Like Arky says, if you ain't GROWING yer DYING.  Truth for trees and people.  So, in order for us to get GROWING we'll need new people BUILDING in the Ozarks.  COME ON DOWN!

[pigman]

:D I was just kidding. We welcome all good people who want to live free and mind their own business.

Well, I guess then I will just have to move down next to Tom . ;D  Or I could move down next to Bibbyman and be an Old'fart and vist with Pro Sawyer Mary while Bibbyman is working. ;) ;D

[timcosby]

Y'ALL GOTS IT ALL WRONG IT'S NOT YOUR LAND!!!! TO FIND OUT DON'T PAY YOUR LAND TAXES(RENT) AND SEE WHO'S LAND IT IS.

[KarenKae]

Y'ALL GOTS IT ALL WRONG IT'S NOT YOUR LAND!!!! TO FIND OUT DON'T PAY YOUR LAND TAXES(RENT) AND SEE WHO'S LAND IT IS.

As a matter of fact, I am working on this VERY issue in the up coming elections.  I am proposing that ALL current taxes be recinded in favor of a NATIONAL flat sales tax of 5%. One cent per dollar goes to the city or village and all the money is collected at that time (Point of Sale) then that tax agency distributes 1 cent per dollar to the county or parish, one cent to the state and the last 2 cents on the dollar spent goes to Washington, 1 cent on the dollar to run the Government and 1 cent to the Social Security/Medicare system to fund that program.
Now. NOOOOO exceptions! Churches, Cities, States, Feds, Illegal Immigrants, drug dealers, crime lords, Donald Trump, Madonna, O J Simpson, the Iraqi Government..EVERYBODY who  spends a dollar, gets to pay the SAME flat sales tax on every transaction involving a SALE.  New, used, or recycled. Now.. we won't need to spend millions of dollars COLLECTING loads of silly, useless excuses to tax our people to death. You don't have to pay AGAIN on your land, house, car, dog, cat or ATV unless you SELL IT and then the new guy gets to pay his 5% to the system. No USE tax, No manufacturing tax, No Fuel tax, NADA.
Then, we the people will tell the GOVERNMENT how much money they have to BUDGET for the various needs of the country.  Golden Fleece retirement fund is retired. ALL government employees, Senators, Congreesmen, Judges and CEO's all get the SAME retirement from the Social Security System as everybody else.  Since EVERYBODY is contributing the SAME 5%, no exceptions, no special arrangements, no special deals.  Every bazillion dollar fund raiser that GIVES a product or prize must remit the same 5% of value to the local tax collector.  ONE simple form, in all languages so EVERYBODY knows they ALL have to pay.  No diplomatic immunity, all other countries who have offices here have to pay the same 5% on the value of their office spaces since they are in effect RENTING space.  I think between the $$$ generated and the $$$'s saved NOT prosecuting 10 year old tax cases, retiring all the tax collectors and streamlining the payment of monies generated, to a deposit EACH Day to the correct account in the city, parish/county, state and federal agencies will free up MILLIONS and MILLIONS of hard earned dollars for the Americans who EARN it to spend it.  Instead of stealing our money and through burdensome old tax structures our livings, we the PEOPLE will be in charge of the money ... AT LAST.  The technology exists RIGHT THIS minute to implement such a system.  When I buy groceries at Wal-mart with my debit card... the money is out of my bank and at Wal-marts account BEFORE I can get back to my computer to check on it.  No need to do away with cash.  The person doing the selling will be responsible for remitting the tax.  An open book policy at the Tax Collectors office will ensure all people selling for cash makes the correct remittance as YOUR neighbors will KNOW if you don't pay UP!  Then we can have the local sheriff stop by and pick up our money or the crook the next DAY and FINE them 100% of the tax owed, just to keep the honest people, honest.  VOTE FOR ME and I WILL SET YOU FREE!

[Bibbyman]

I thought of an interesting way to pay taxes and fund projects you agree with.  Each year when you pay your Federal, State, and local taxes, figure up the total for each.  Each form would have say ten categories such as highways, military, social services, etc.  The tax payer would designate how they want their tax money spent in 10% lumps.  Say you want to spend 80% on highways and 10% on the military and 10% on social services, and nothing on everything else, that's what you put down.  That way the tax payers have a voice in how the money is spent – not the knot heads we've elected or those they have appointed.

[TexasTimbers]

I am more in favor of the national sales tax in lieu of the flat tax or especiall the progressive or graduated tax on income as we now have it.

But the regulation issue which was first brought up is a nightmare in many places. It has even crept into my little corner of the world. I have a couple that just moved down here from Indiana who want me to build them a timber frame next year. They have been talking with me since last year before they picked up and moved. They disassembled a 30 x 50 timber framed barn up there and brought it with them. they want me to erect it and add on another 40 x 40 as an ell.

I had planned on doing it up until recently only in part because I just don't have time. But the main reason is I just no longer have the desire to wade through the mounds of regulation which is present in the municipality where they want to build. It is in my county but it's also in a minicipality where the new (installed last year) building inspector/mayor (no kidding) is a retired engineer, and is notoriously difficult to work with. He was reared in a part of the country where they teach their young that southerners are just a bunch of dumb rednecks and don't know nuttin. Having that attitude is one thing but he let's it rule the way he deals with people in general and builders in particular, all pretty much southerners of course, and I know a few builders that no longer take clients in that town.
I also know a few builders who want to knock off his block.
Me, I am just gonna pass on the timber frame. Life is to short to knowingly enter into that mess!

[Don_Papenburg]

Karen Kae for prezedent!!!!!!  8)  That more than double beets the he!! out of hillery .
Something has to be done with out of control taxing and wasting of taxmoney.
  If we keep realestate taxes then they should never go up till you sell the property,or when you build new additions  or buildings.   fixin the roof or painting is maint. and should not be taxed as it is in some places.

[Bibbyman]

For as long as I can remember the county tax assessor drove a discarded county sheriff's patrol car.  I noted this spring they were driving a new SUV.  Tax business must be good.   

[thecfarm]

Bibbyman,you are right about the city people moving into the country to get away from it "all" and they they want to make it just like what they are trying to get away from.I'm lucky,so far no one been up here yet like that.Our tax assessor is a private assessor that is not on the town payroll.They are more like a contractor.
There are alot of laws that don't make sense out there.It's really too bad.Need to really clean house.Hard for one or two to change things.They may try but get pushed around by the others until they are just like them.Money and "favors" does alot too.It's a big shame we are the way we are too.I don't see a change in the near future.Gas,heating oil high,that is not right.

[Larry]

I think the taxman is starting to move from SUV's to spy planes...think the USDA made the move to spy satellites. ??? : ???

[KarenKae]

Karen Kae for prezedent!!!!!!  8)  That more than double beets the he!! out of hillery .
Something has to be done with out of control taxing and wasting of taxmoney.
  If we keep realestate taxes then they should never go up till you sell the property,or when you build new additions  or buildings.   fixin the roof or painting is maint. and should not be taxed as it is in some places.

Thanks, Don, but I do not want to be president. I DO want to work in the system to make it work correctly without adding huge burdens to working families who do most of the PAYING for government.  I saw an article just the other day that said 80% of the MONEY was in the hands of 20% of the people and that only 20% of the money has to cover the 80 % of the PEOPLE.  That just doesn't leave much pie per person.  I am pretty sure we don't need any more mansions on the earth when there are homeless people in America with nothing to eat.  I am a true Republican. I believe that if you don't work.. you don't eat. That said, IF YOU WORK.. YOU get to KEEP the money.  I don't think that the 20% with all the cash should have the loopholes for stashing the cash when the average Joe is footing all the bills.  Hence why these "INSPECTORS" who wield power over construction should be answerable to the people in the state or county they live in.  Charging all kinds of Permits, use taxes and inspection fees under the guise of building things they way THEY want them built is too much power in too few hands.  Sure there needs to be guidelines and if there is a majority of voters in an area that have invested years and dollars in their homes, they should be able to limit by reasonable means the building of tar sheds for goats on the next piece of land over. But the working man needs the system to be reasonable to the extent that he can build a home for shelter without paying a whole lot of dollars in answer to Zoning and Building codes that are a burden because the rich folks down the street don't want affordable housing on their block.   There has to be a balance.  In much of  the Ozarks there is no such zoning resrictions. So Tyson's can come in.. doze all the trees on 30 acres, get the county to put them in a road and plant a smelly turkey barn whereever they please.  Those of us who live simply on the land are stuck with ruined water and roads that wash out because the city slicker fools cut all the trees off the slope. THEY DON'T LIVE HERE!  They have a half million dollar house in Fayetteville. But just let some poor legal aliens try to build a small hacidena on a 1/2 acre of land in town and you never heard such yelling over ZONING rights.  You can't have an adobe house in that part of town.
Sorry.. got away on a bit of a rant   We DO need a revolt. 
WE.. the people need to get behind a man running for government that one.. knows what he is doing and two has a plan that works.  Check out Mike Huckebee for President. and remember, if you are NOT registered to vote, you ARE the problem.  The American vote is our last defense, don't lose it!