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Cellulosic Ethanol In Georgia

Started by TexasTimbers, September 03, 2007, 08:16:26 AM

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TexasTimbers

I heard on the news this a.m. where some Colorado company is going to start harvesting pines trees in Ga. to convert to ethanol. I didn't catch many other details over the buzz of the electric shaver though. I bet one of the members must be close to the area they bought up or leased a bunch of acres I believe they said.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

WDH

The plant is to be built in Swainsboro, GA.  I don't have many details.  I heard that it had been delayed because gas prices had fallen, but that might be hearsay.
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DanG

That would be typical.  It seems to take a 50% increase in gas prices to spur any action on the alternatives front, but only a 10% decrease to make them back off. ::)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

pineywoods

Same thing happened in louisiana, the official word was that the process they had developed worked OK in the lab, but didn't do so well when scaled up to production quantities. Not the first time i've heard of that happening.
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fencerowphil (Phil L.)

The plant is actually going up in Soperton, Ga.
A friend of mine was hired to be the plant manager.
He just started work in fact.

Process is designed for Pine.  It is expected to operate
on the equivalent of 100 chip loads PER DAY.


Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Don P

I ran across a cellulosic ethanol and a bio oil page this evening on the UTK website, thought it might be of interest. The bio oil gets my curiosity up if anyone comes across anything else.
http://web.utk.edu/~mtaylo29/pages/Ethanol%20from%20wood.htm
http://web.utk.edu/~mtaylo29/pages/bio-oil.html

TexasTimbers

Could someone who understands the big picture of economics and markets dumb down your answer enough to explain why we have not already replaced foriegn oil dependence at least in some significant part with our vast natural resource and technological capabilities?

I think of all these reason s like venture capital takes a while to fall into emerging markets, but it is the market waiting to be fed that attracts the venture capital. Well there is certainly a huge market the biggest besides food. Is it because the processing of all these alternative energy resources takes the use of fossil fuels so that alone makes most of them cost prohibitive? When will one of the alternative energy sources take off on its own in a large degree? Is it wind power that will emerge? Solar?

Is there a solar panel manufacturer that makes its panels 100% with solar power?

Is there really too many big money oil people/corps/lobbyists/politicians that will not allow it?

I vote for Pauls woodburning truck to lead the way. :)

But seriously, can someone explain to me in a few sentences why we are STILL so overwhelmingly dependent on foriegn oil or is too complex to sum up in a pargraph?
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

beenthere

Only a guess, kevjay.
Oil is still cheap. Maybe not 'cheap' cheap, but in comparison -- it is cheap. Just a guess tho.  ;D ;D
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

TexasTimbers

Well even this dumdum knows that bt.  ::)

I guess what I did a bad job at asking is (and you distilled MUCH better tyvm) is why is it so much cheaper in comparison?

Go ahead, synop it with 3 words or something.  :D
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Fla._Deadheader


Brand of panels I used to sell is Solarex. They had their own Solar powered factory.

  I believe they sold out to another outfit. Big Oil, maybe ???
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Ron Wenrich

The short answer is that we aren't really short on resources or technology.  There just isn't any money to push for alternative energy.  Money buys legislation, pure and simple.  The alternative energy crowd is too fragmented to entertain any legislature into making laws that would benefit them and not the fossil fuel crowd. 

What's happening now is that we are really losing out to Europe in technology.  I saw a report where 20% of Germany's electricity is solar produced.  Germany is not noted for their clear skies.  But, the resolve of the public and the legislature has put alternative energy on the front burner.  We haven't done that since money is steering our legislature.

The consumer's can't demand anything that isn't being offered.  And as long as the business climate is tilted in favor of fossil fuels, fossil fuels is what will be offered. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Corley5

In it's simplest form it all comes down to $$$$$
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

TexasTimbers

Well that's sorta how I had it figured I just wanted to get another opinion. It seems to me that small companies are going to have to create niche markets and when enough of them have the big boys' attention they will come in and buy them out and have one bigger market.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Fla._Deadheader


OR, just let the new acquisitions just die a slow death  ::) ::) ::) >:( >:(
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Riles

Trillions of dollars have been spent on fossil fuel development and internal combustion engines over the last 100 years. Is it really much of a surprise that the gasoline engine is so efficient? Give the cellulosic ethanol guys a trillion bucks and a hundred years and see what you get.
Knowledge is good -- Faber College

TexasTimbers

I think give them a billion bucks and ten years with the comparitively advanced technology is all it would take.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Corley5

A billion dollars doesn't go very far when it comes to industrial R&D
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Tom

I don't think you have to give them anything but permission.  Getting "permission" from any of our levels of government is like extracting gold from lead.  We have some of the most innovative thinkers in the world right here in the USA and they aren't allowed to do anything.  It's the idea that we need a law passed to "allow" someone to invent that kills the drive.  I don't care what faction is in charge, they are going to want to a bundle of money and total control of any product or system developed.  I'm convinced that it is the job of Government to stop a citizen from doing what he wants.

It makes my bohunkus crave barbwire!

rebocardo

Haven't read the budget allowance in a year or two, or know if it was all spent, but, I think Bush budgeted something along the lines of 4 billion dollars the last two years for alternative energy.

> why we have not already replaced foriegn oil dependence at least in some significant
> part with our vast natural resource and technological capabilities?

Infrastructure, EPA, eco-nut groups, NIMBY.

Infrastructure because it is cheaper in the short term to keep using what you already have.

Mostly it is the NIMBY factor.

GA actually passed a state law so local codes can't deprive you of sun access (you can cut down your trees or your neighors if I read correctly  ;)  ) or prevent you from building solar panels where you want.


stonebroke

I have had a wind power company appoach me to put a wind farm in. Boy did the neighbors go nuts. They don"t want to look at them. NIMBY. But they are all in favor of green renewable energy just not anywhere near them.

Stonebroke

customsawyer

The plant is going up in Soperton as Phil stated and the rest goes along with the rest of what you guys are talking about.
#1. The town of Soperton is the home town of Hugh Gillis who was one of our senators for alot of years, anyway that family has had a hand in the state politics for a long time. I am not saying that they didn't do a good job or that they are bad people I just think that had something to do with where the plant got put.
#2. I read in the paper that the plant was going to cost $240,000,000.00 just to get it up and running. The first thing the state did was give them $82,000,000.00 to help with the building of the plant. Now if the plant actually gets up and running and is able to do what it claims it will be a great boost to the economy of this whole state. As long as the plant does what it says then I am not really against the helping them to get the plant off the ground as the state will make that back and then some, but I am starting to have doubts about it running at all much less how long they have been holding on to the state money getting intrest and such. Just makes you sit back and take along look at the whole thing. ???
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

WDH

I hear that the enzymes required to make wood cellulose into ethanol are expensive and not readily available to supply a full scale plant.  I guess we will see.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Woodcarver

I've read, too, WDH, that there hasn't been an enzyme identified that is suitable for the  production of cellulosic enthanol on a commercial scale. Until one is found building a plant may be putting the cart before the horse. 
Just an old dog learning new tricks.......Woodcarver

DanG

They're trying to develop this technology in order to utilize the huge glut of surplus pine pulpwood in the area.  If it fails, they may start making paper and cardboard out of it to replace all the plastic we won't have when the oil runs out. ::) ;D
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

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