Manual vs Hydraulic

[maineframer]

Hi. My name is David. I have been reading the post here for a year or so and learned alot.

I operate a small timberframing company in Maine. I am in the process of looking at mills and I am considering the Wood mizer LT -40  Hydraulic and also the Thomas Manual mill with a  20 HP Honda. The Thomas I can set up for around $9000.00
with 40' of track and could cut a 36' log. The orange mill will run around $30,000.00 for a 32' log set up. My question is---being that I will mostly be milling large Beams (8x8, 6x6, 8x10 etc. are the hydraulics nearly essential or not? On the one hand large logs would be a whole lot easier to flip with the wood mizer  on the other hand I don't know if we do enough volume to justify cost. We probably go through around 100-125,000 BF annually.  We use mostly Hemlock and Eastern white pine.What do you guys think?

[WH_Conley]

Hydraulics by all means.

[Dan_Shade]

I can't imagine running a saw without hydraulics now that I have them.

those hydraulics sure help out your back.

[Bibbyman]

We're sawing out some 200+ oak beams right now for a timber frame bridge project the largest pieces are 10x10 by 18' long.

In the last couple of days we've been sawing out 6x8s by 16' and getting an average of over 100bf of 4/4 lumber off the sides.  I've found I have to turn the log after every cut to neutralize the stress.  That'd be a lot of turning by hand.

[maineframer]

So the cost of the mill is justified in your opinions as ther will be more turning than I  realized? Would you go Super  with the diesel or the regular hydralic? An also what about acuset?

[Greg Cook]

I have full manual capabilities! The only thing that isn't manual is the electic start on the engine. I didn't think hydraulics would make to much difference for no more than I'm cutting, until...
A friend of a friend needed some ash logs (just a few) sawn. They got up here with a trailer load.
Man, I sure wish I had hydraulics!

Greg

[musikwerke]

I know Dale Thomas and I know his mills.  (Just talked with him yesterday)  I also own a Wood-Mizer.  I guess I'd have to see a hydraulic turner, of any make, rotate a 36 ft. log before I judged whether or not, for your needs, $21,000.00 extra was really worth it.

[Dan_Shade]

it really does depend on what your output will be.

one thing that I've found is the hydraulic toe-boards are nice.  and having the rollers are nice too.  when I'm cutting beams, i'll just lift the rollers and pull the beam off the end.  that makes things a little easier.

[Minnesota_boy]

How much is a week's stay in the hospital while they try to repair a blown disk in your back worth?  Hydraulics are worth far more than they cost.

I've done lots of beams up to 32 feet and if the hydraulic turner wouldn't turn them by itself, it only required a small effort with a cant hook to make them come on over.  Much easier than by cant hook alone.

[maineframer]

I know Dale and Jon too. Just talked with them at the fair this afternoon (my timber frame display is real close to theirs. ) I have been going back and forth  between them and woodmizer in my head fo a while now. I guess realisticly the hyraulic mill is the answer.

[Dan_Shade]

I almost bought a manual mill, but the "what's a bad back worth" argument won me over.

after working the hydraulics, I now wish i had faster hydraulics! 

if you have 10 kids to help you saw, i'd get the manual, any other way; the hydraulics are the way to go! 

[maineframer]

Dan,

Are you cutting mostly 2xs, beams, or 1x boards?

[Bibbyman]

So the cost of the mill is justified in your opinions as ther will be more turning than I  realized? Would you go Super  with the diesel or the regular hydralic? An also what about acuset?

We just happened to fall into a lot of business sawing heavy beam in the past few months. We're really not set up real well to move them off the mill. Our main business has been just sawing lumber.  Farm lumber, grade hardwood, cedar, etc.  We do a lot of custom sawing.

In the photo archive are pictures of Wood-Mizer mills set up to saw long beams.  



I once visited a mill in Durango Co. that could saw beams up to 60' long.



If you're not going to do mobile sawing and you have access to 3ph there is a lot of advantages to getting a mill with an electric motor.  


Accuset is a pretty expensive option but worth it if you're doing a lot of sawing.  One thing I'd sure recomend getting is a debarker.

[Dan_Shade]

I do custom sawing on the side.  Most of what I saw are hardwoods into 4/4.  I do some dimensional lumber, and a few beams here and there.  the beams have all been small numbers.  if somebody wants a bunch, a requirement of mind is for them to have equipment to handle the beams. 

If you are cutting beams almost exclusively, then your situation is definately different than mine, but you may see some other markets open up if you have the capability.  you'll also get 1x stuff off of the sides of the logs while paring them down for beams.

[maineframer]

Bibbyman,

Thanks for the photos they are great. We would set the saw up in a chicken barn and not ever move it. I was thinking of the 12' extension the 51hp diesel and debarker. A friend of mine has a super with a 42hp Kubota I belive the mill is a 2001 he saws up to 21 feet. I ran this mill through a few logs last week and it was sweet.

[Bibbyman]

 

I found this picture of a great setup for moving the beams off the mill.  I don't remember who's it was.  I know one thing,  the roller toe boards make it much easier to move beams down the mill.

If you're never going to move it, then for sure look at an electric motor.  Even if you don't have 3ph available,  it can be done with a phase converter (like we and others have done) and will save you a bundle all the way around.

[DanG]

Mainframer, I'm sure you would be quite pleased with a Woodmizer Hydraulic mill, but I'm not sure the huge price difference is worth it.  You're talking about a $21,000 difference, and log turning is about the only real advantage you would gain for your particular operation.  Unless I'm seriously misguided here, the LT40 is a 20 ft mill, and you get 32' capability by adding an extension.  That leaves your log turner and clamp back at the 10 foot point, which makes it hard to handle long logs.  Now if long beams are only a small part of your needs, you could put up with that by giving it a little manual assist, but that would get really old with a steady diet of long ones.  Given the huge price difference and the 40 foot length, I'd be thinking real serious about the Thomas, and plan to add a log turner to it.  Twenty one Grand will buy a lot of fabrication.

[maineframer]

Bibbyman,

What does the phase converter entail and what is the cost? We do not have 3 phase available.

[Bibbyman]

Here is a link to the knowledge base where I posted all I know about phase converters.

Phase converters

Talk to your sawmill salesman about the cost and advantage of the 3ph mill.  Even if you have the up front cost of a converter, it'll likely be less than the model with a big diesel engine.  It'll operate on a fraction of the cost for energy and is far lass of a maintenance problem.  No fuel, no fumes, no oil changes, no filters, no nothing.  Just turn it on and HUMMMMMM!

[pineywoods]

Adding hydraulics to a mill that doesn't have it really isn't that big a deal if you are handy with tools and metal fabrication. Especially if you are running a fixed setup. Portability is nice but it does cost extra. Look in my gallery for pics, and look at the sweet setup Bibby has.

[Bibbyman]

None of the pictures I posted above is of our mill.  The best I've been able to put into place is a couple of sections of skate roller track.  It works well for beams up to 10'.  But we have hooked and crooked beams up to 16' long down and out it.  If we keep getting orders for long beams,  I'll rework it.



Here I'm squaring out cedar 6x6s and pushing them "down the line". (Note the 25hp 3ph motor on the mill vs. and engine.)



Here is another look outside the mill where a RR tie has been rolled down onto the forks of the Terex.



View from the top side of the roller boards.

[thecfarm]

If I had $30000 to spend on a mill it would be a WM.But since I only had $7000 I bought a Thomas.The Thomas will cut just as good or bad as a WM.You have no idea what you will be doing in 10 years.I would go with hyd.If I had the know how to do it,which I don't,I would do it myself.I would have to spend out the extra dollars on hyd.I had my wife dog in a few logs for me.Once I get them squared on 2 sides,I'm all set.But those first 2 sides can be hard when I'm holding the log with a cantdog with both hands and trying to dog it in with my third hand.  :D :D Good luck.

[Brucer]

Three years ago I ran a hydraulic WM for a guy who would sometimes saw for Timber Framers. He had the 12' extension and a small front-end loader. When the logs got up into the 28' plus range, we had to use the FEL to lift the far end of the log onto the mill. The turner managed to turn the logs OK, although there was a bit of cursing going on. You definitely want the "big end" down near the turner.

After that I bought a manual WM, and set out looking for custom work. After a few months, the local Timber Frame shop contracted with me to saw a truckload of big logs for them. For example, 8x12x16', FOHC. I cranked out about 12,000 BF of big timbers with that manual mill. It wasn't fun, and my near-60 body wasn't real happy, but I did it.

Last year I bought a hydraulic WM with the 28 HP Kohler engine. The bulk of my is for the timber-framer and in one year I sawed about 56,000 BF of timber for him, and around 28,000 in side lumber. I still work hard, but I make a decent buck at it. Most of his timbers are 20' and less. I can put out a 24' timber on the mill (with no extension) if I have to, but generally he buys in anything over 20'.

Given a chance at a permanent setup, I'd definitely go with the 25 HP 3-phase electric motor.

[ladylake]

For long logs I'd rig up 2 chain turners which could also raise either end of the log if spaced right.    Steve

[raycon]

I started off with a manual woodmizer upgraded to hydraulics not long after. If you want to get through 10 logs in a morning and not be spent in the later afternoon hydraulics will help accomplish that. A  tractor/skid steer or log grapple become a must have real quick as well.  With board drag back and off bearing  rollers setup properly I  can fly no way the manual mill comes close sawing solo. Accuset if you can get it is a huge plus as well.   With two guys the manual mill would keep up but you'll be tired.

Hiring in a hydraulic mill and a manual mill owner to do some contract work might help you get a better idea of whats involved with each.  If I get another mill and its not a circle mill it may be a Baker with a customized length if possible say 25' of cutting length stock if thats an option? Two  wood-mizers in my area have permanently mounted custom extensions that push there cutting length out to 32' another one has a head thats been modified to accept a 40"+ wide logs it telescopes to 2 positions factory and supersize.  Point being modifying the equipment to suit needs is an option. Check out Newman Gee's old website (brace making on a bandmill is one of the highlights).
http://newmansknees.com/index.html



Check out the used market place as well. A lot of newer mills being offered with minimal hours.