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New versus Used Portable Sawmill

Started by dea, August 20, 2007, 08:18:20 PM

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dea

 8)Hi, this is DEA      I recently posted a question in the Timber Frame Section.  I have another question.  I am about to retire and am thinking about getting a Woodmizer HD40.  How long would it take to start getting enough business to make payments and a little return?  This would be set up on my property in the Birmingham, Alabama area.  I have looked at a new one and man they cost the $$$!  I have also looked at used mills, one about 7 or 8 years old, and it is also expensive.  Should I go with new or used?  I think about worn out parts on a used one and the parts are expensive.  I wouldn't want a lot of break downs and expense, just getting started.  How about some older more experienced guys give me your ideas on this.  All input is greatly appreciated.  Thank you.  DEA
DEA

Tom

New, shiny equipment is great, but so is a good used piece of quality equipment.  Unless they have been in a wreck or sorely abused, most portable mills with 4 or 5 years of experience can be put into production shape with just a few parts.  If it is being used in a business invironment, It may already be  in good working shape.  Don't hesitate to buy used. 

Dan_Shade

my only "advise" would be to find a 97+ woodmizer with the "two plane" clamp.  the older models clamping system isn't nearly as good as the newer ones.

as long as the frame isn't bent you can repair a woodmizer.  it all depends on how much little stuff it needs.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

SAW MILLER

 Thanks for the info.I am in hardwood country an normally don't get much pine but I am glad to hear that I won't be waking up to a big pile of sawdust.I have been on a big job for 6 weeks or the pine woulda been sawn by now.
LT 40 woodmizer..Massey ferg.240 walker gyp and a canthook

TnSawyer

Dan is right about the 2 plane clamp.  I bought a '93 lt40 hydraulic mill.  We replaced the barrel switches, fuses, blade guides, and had the hydraulic pump reworked. And adjusted the rails and head. The machine cuts just as good as a new one.  I do envy those with the newer clamp though.

pineywoods

Don't overlook the possibility of a manual woodmizer (no hydraulics). Sometimes these can be picked up pretty reasonable. All the options can be added later fairly easily. I put my own design hydraulic system on mine for around a grand. As previously stated, if the frame ain't bent, they are repairable.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

Fla._Deadheader


  Changing out the clamp for a "2 Plane" design is NOT difficult. Buy the older model and we can talk you through converting the clamping system.  ;) ;D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Haytrader

 I am about to retire and am thinking about getting a Woodmizer HD40.  How long would it take to start getting enough business to make payments and a little return?  This would be set up on my property in the Birmingham, Alabama area.  I have looked at a new one and man they cost the $$$!  I have also looked at used mills, one about 7 or 8 years old, and it is also expensive.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Have you even considered any other mill? There is nothing wrong with a WM but there are other colors that don't cost nearly as much.
When I see these kind of posts I always wonder what kind of support equipment the person has, if any. How much production do you plan on, need? Are you sawing for your own use? Do you need to make part of a living from the proposed profits derived from a sawmill? Is it just a hobby? What are your physical limits, if any?
A manual mill, of any color, will cut just as good as a mill with all the bells and whistles, just not as fast. You need to be able to get the logs to the mill no matter what kind or size of mill you have. If you have a skid steer or tractor or fork lift you can get the logs on the mill. If not, one with hydraulics would be nice. Sometimes I think a person can buy a small tractor with front end loader and a manual mill for less that a mill with more features would cost.
I have a manual mill and a tractor and this setup will allow one to cut a substantial amount of lumber.

These are just my thoughts. If funds are not an issue, go for all you can buy.
Haytrader

MikeH

 Make payments and a little return? Make sure you have enough money to make it 2 years without much income(or any) from mill. imho

Handy Andy

  Have to agree with Mike H and Haytrader.  My Cook mill bought used cuts very well.  It has no hydraulics, but does have a electric winch.  I also have a skid steer which handles logs very well.  Use it to turn the big ones.  And I haven't made money with my mill, although my nephew gave me 20$ for an afternoon's milling.  But I have a huge pile of boards in the barn drying. My motivation was to collect boards for my own use.  Now I can afford to waste a bad board.  I am in the middle of a kitchen for pay.  Used my own black oak, and the gal says the cabinets are beautiful. Trouble is you have to use red oak crown mold.  Jim
My name's Jim, I like wood.

dea

 8)DEA         I really appreciate all the input.  A used mill might not be that bad.  I am a crane operator by trade and when a crane gets a couple of years on them, they start breaking down.  It's a pain in "you know what."  Two years is disastrous, I thought two or three months.  I would have to get an old loader or tractor to handle the logs.  Thanks   DEA
DEA

logwalker

I chose a 1994 LT40HD with a 15 hp electric. I just love it. It has 5000+ hours and rarely needs anything to keep it working. I chose it after owning and running a manual bandmill for 5 years. I used to be skeptical about Woodmisers claims and read and listened and made trips to see mills working. When I found a very used mill north of me in British Columbia for less than $10,000 I jumped. I figured $5000 would buy a lot of repair parts. As it has turned out I have owned it for nearly 2 years and have spent maybe $400 or $500 in parts. They are a phone call away by the next day and the service is just incredible. BTW mine has the flapper clamp and I don't have a problem with it. Once you learn to work with it it is very effective. Overall you can't go wrong with a WM LT40HD but then you would likely do well with several others as well. I just like the extreme engineering on the WM. And it is very easy to work at for long hours.

Now as for the making a little money on the deal I would have to say that is not likely if you buy new but entirely possible if you pick up one for 10 to 15 k. There are too many expenses and other overhead costs to pencil out. The way it works for me is I have my own timber and several large building projects to use the lumber.


Whatever you decide don't forget it will be hard work for average wages or less. You need to really want to do this for it to work. The people that do well on this forum are passionate about making a superior grade of lumber.

Good Luck and Welcome to the group. Joe
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

Brucer

I looked at new and used when I bought my first mill 2 years ago. I was looking for a manual LT40 at the time, because I knew I wasn't going to be able to finance a hydraulic mill.

I found several manual mills, typically 7-8 years old with 300-600 hours on the meter. Most of them had been sitting idle for a few years. All of their owners thought they should get an "almost new" price because of the low hours.

Fact is, a Wood-Mizer will lose around 36% of its value in the first 5 years. For a 24-28 HP gas engine, figure on it losing an additional $1 per hour on the meter. (Got those numbers from my WM rep.)

So, for a $20,000 mill, 5 years old, 400 hours on the meter ...
  - depreciation from age = $7200.
  - depreciation from motor wear = $400.
In other words, the owners of those used fills had a pretty unrealistic view of what their mills were worth. If you can find a well-maintained mill for a reasonable price, go for it.

I ended up buying my manual mill new -- couldn't find a used one for a fair price. It took a hard, slow year to begin to make some money, and then my business kind of got out of hand. I ended up selling the original mill after a year and buying a new hydraulic one.

Of course, the folks who bought my first mill got a good deal because it was well maintained and I had a realistic idea of what it was worth. How'd they hear about me? The dealer told them! Fastest way he could sell me a new hydraulic mill was to send me someone who wanted to buy my old mill.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

LeeB

While I was in the Mt. Vernon store the other day a fellow called in desperate to sell a 98 LT40Super gas 38horse for $13000. There are good deals out there on used mills. If I had the money I  would buy it just to resell.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Dan_Shade

i'll throw another 2.5 cents into the mix....

hydraulics are really nice to have, I almost bought a mill without them, but I am SO glad that I did buy them.  If you are going to be sawing for people, you want to get the job done, and get home.  hydraulics really speeds up that process.  Let alone blowing out your back trying to flip a 20x20 cant by hand.

The advantages of the two plane clamp come into play while flipping cants and keeping large logs on the mill while turning.  both styles of clamps are perfectly adequate to hold a cant in place while sawing.

2 years of cash is suggested for any business startup, it takes a while to get your name out there enough for a steady income, it all depends on how much you want, and what you need to survive.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

dea

Reply to LeeB Pyatt, Ark.
Your post to new versus used portable sawmill - tell me more or how to get in touch regarding the 98 LT40 super 38 hourse for $13,000.  Maybe you could email me or post another reply. 
Thank you   DEA     email at benarno@bellsouth.net
DEA

DanG

Welcome to the forum, DEA.  Whereabouts in Ga. is Dallas?

If you're serious about getting into sawmilling on whatever scale, you have come to the best place for learning about it.  I came in several years ago, in exactly the same situation as you.  I was contemplating retirement and wanted to get a sawmill to use as income supplement and provide lumber for my own projects.  I was given lots of good advice, some of which I actually heeded :D , and I credit these folks for most of what I have learned.

I never buy new items any larger than a lawn mower.  I've found there to be much more value in good used equipment.  On sawmills specifically, warranties don't really mean all that much, imo.  They are great for working out the initial bugs that new stuff tends to be plagued with, but that has usually been done already on the used mills.  Outside of the engine itself, most of the worn parts that might need replacing on an older mill are "wear" items that need replacing periodically anyway.  These are not a big challenge for anyone that is handy.  In fact, if you aren't handy with tools and mechanical stuff, you probably shouldn't be messing with a sawmill, anyway.

My very first post on this forum was very similar to your's.  Tom told me, "If you're thinking about retirement, you probably are not very young.  Get all the automation you can."  He was exactly right! :)  My idea was to get my support equipment first, and I set a goal to be sawing within a year.  Two months later I ran into a bargain on a mill and bought it, so it sat in the yard for a while until I found an old forklift I could buy, and I was "in business" well ahead of schedule.  Take your time finding the right mill for you, and your patience will be rewarded.

One thing you might look for is a mill with a major, but repairable problem, such as a blown engine.  People tend to sell them really cheap, and you may come out with a good mill with a new engine, cheaper than the same mill with a running engine with lots of hours on it.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Warren

Dea,

Welcome to the forum.  DanG made a good point regarding buying a mill or support equipment.  Once you know what you want, if you don't HAVE to buy it right away, just sit back and keep your eyes open. With a little patience, you can generally find something that will meet your specs at a reasonable price... 

Warren
LT40SHD42, Case 1845C,  Baker Edger ...  And still not near enough time in the day ...

mike_van

Hi Dea, my 2 cents would be to buy all the hydraulic log handling you can afford - I used to think my back was made out of titanium, 'till I turned 50. Now, 6 years later, I think it's more like brittle cast iron.  A few weeks ago I had some 24" dia. 15' red oak logs I turned by pushing a few levers - priceless!  :)
I was the smartest 16 year old I ever knew.

Fla._Deadheader


  DEA, did you check out the LT30 in the For Sale Section ???
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

ARKANSAWYER


  As for used, there is used and abused.  My mill has close to 9,000+ hours and 2 million bdft sawn on her.  The engine may blow any day and there are some repairs along the way.  But in all the years I have owned her I bet I have not put more then $3,000 in repairs.  So tomorrow if the engine goes it will be another $2,500 but then she has earned it.
  I would be less afraid of a mill that has several thousand hours that is used then one that has sit for years and not been used much.
ARKANSAWYER

John_Haylow

There are good used mills around, but it may take you some time is all. I was looking for some time and had just about given up on used when I found mine.

Be patient and keep searching and it will happen.

Best of luck,
John
2004 Wood-Mizer LT40HDG28

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