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How do you price "crotch" wood and when does wood become curly?

Started by Kelvin, August 17, 2007, 04:23:53 AM

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Kelvin

Howdy all,
Anybody with some help on pricing my wood.  I've come up with two different conditions that i don't have much experience with pricing and was hoping some of you might give me some examples.  For instance i have sawn two different logs with a real nice crotch at the top.  One walnut gave me 18" wide boards with real nice figure on the last two feet of an 8' piece of lumber.  Typical "y" branch.  Now i can price the lumber as plain walnut, but people talk about crotch wood being desireable.  What would you think it might add?  Anything?  Is it desireable in the sense of "oh, thats nice" or in the sense of doubling the bd ft price?  What has been peoples experience in the real world?  I don't want to over or under value this stuff in ball parking and customers don't help much as they want it for the cheapest possible.  The second is a much smaller cherry log only about 60" long with the same typical "y" type pattern crotch, boards about 10" wide.  Same story?
The second issue is selling maple, or cherry for that matter.  Frequently i come across boards that look curly, lightly, and customers like to look through the stacks trying to find them.  Has there been experience of adding any amount for light curl?  I've heard that 1/3 of most maple logs will have some figure, is this to add to the value or just another "who cares"?  I've seen heavy amazing curl and understand the difference, and understand that its up to me to set my prices with the customers, but i'm small enough and new enough that i don't have lots of experience and don't want to scare off potential customers by calling everything curly and doubling the price, but it does seem like the boards i've called "curly" have gotten much better prices, and the people can see them, and must agree.  I'm small enough that i can easily sort these out, but often you don't see it till you've planned the rough lumber for the customer.  I don't want to change the prices on them, but if its a matter of a greatly increased value i don't want to give away curly boards b/c i couldn't see them ahead of time.  We don't sell truck loads of wood, mostly to hobbiests, so i can afford to try seperate the little we have if its worth the time.  I bet big guys just through it all together?  What do some of you little guys do?  Thanks for any help,
Kelvin

Daren

Quote from: Kelvin on August 17, 2007, 04:23:53 AM
  One walnut gave me 18" wide boards with real nice figure on the last two feet of an 8' piece of lumber. 

Here is my $.02 on it. I may be contradicted, but everyones market is different and obviously you have to find yours You said you are selling to hobbiest, they don't usually need an 8' board. If they do I am sure you have some in stock. Cut the crotch off and sell it separate. Get what you can locally for the 6' board, don't GIVE away the crotch to make a sale. I have recently been offered $10 bft for nice crotches (white oak and walnut) IN THE LOG, uncut green and scaled Doyle, all I can supply. So there is a market for crotch wood, even little pieces. If you have to set on them for awhile until you find that buyer...they take up alot less room. It would be a shame to sell them on the end of a board for $5 bft or whatever. Others might say that is crazy hacking up a board like that, and I kinda thought the same thing until recently when I found like you I have been shooting myself in the foot for the last few years,

As far as figured wood. You said you know wow curly when you see it, wow curly brings wow money. Sorta curly brings more than normal, the more figure the more money. If you have room and are willing to sort, do it. Just like grade, I have $2.50 bft walnut/$3.50 and a stack of $7.00, it is not all in one pile to dig through. I pull figured boards off to the side and price them higher. I can't help you much with what price to put on it without seeing it but it is worth more. That is the hardest part of selling figured lumber, pricing. There is no standard, and no 2 buyers are the same. That does not effect my price, the buyers willingness to pay what I am asking. I have one guy who comes around who gladly pays $15 bft for curly maple, others offer $10...they leave empty handed unless they are buying something else they see and like. The pile is still there when the $15 bft guy comes around.

I keep wood with any figure separated, slightly curly 2X the price and go up from there as the figure gets more wow. You are worried about scaring off customers by sorting and upping the price for figured woods. If you are getting good figured lumber you will be surprised to find it may just be the other way around. I will use the $15 bft curly maple guy again as an example. He knew about my lumber sales for 3 years before he ever came by...I was selling walnut/cherry/oak (you know the standard fair) He was not interested in that, it is a dime a dozen and he can go to any mill and pick it up. He was looking for a place to buy figured hardwoods. Funny thing, he never came by the mill for walnut/cherry/oak before like I said, BUT now that he comes around he will buy a few hundred dollars worth of what he originally stopped for AND while he is here will always buy a few armloads of regular stock. I guess the point of that example was you are not going to scare anyone off by offering something special. Those looking for plain can still buy it from you, or opt to spring for the fancier. The guys looking for fancy will start coming to you and usually pick up a couple extra plain boards "just in case". They might have never stopped before you offered something different than another mill. And it has been my experience guys will "round up" on a load. They come with a certain amount in mind, and with some salesmanship, leave with another $50/$100/$300...what ever the case. 
Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.

Fla._Deadheader


Gotta agree with Daren.  Kelvin, we had a totally different market. However, Cypress is Cypress, and I can get that cheaper somewhere else, was what we kept hearing.

  I plumb wore ole Tom slap OUT, with questions on how to sell what WE had. He kept saying develop your market--MARKETING.  I really got tired of hearing that.  ::) ::)  He was correct.

  We started sawing thick table slabs with live edge. Started selling all we could cut. Defects were not so critical--large checks, big knots in the center, other defects. We called it ALL CHARACTER.  ;) 

  Now, I get hardwood, some with figure. I have to find a market down here.

  I would sort out all figure, and if its subtle, you have to look harder. I believe you have the WM and walk with the head. Carry a brush and wipe the boards off before cutting the next.   Ed graded while I cut from a fixed position, and he saw stuff I never did. We sold by what WE wanted, and haggled when WE wanted. ALWAYS left just a little on the table, and had folks coming and calling. We had to carry our lumber 200 miles home, and stack it in a warehouse. NOT the best thing, but, we added for that, and once we found the market, and massaged it, we did well.

  The stuff folks didn't want, we still have, and ED is building benches and coffee tables, and getting GOOD prices.  Hmmmmmm, where's MY cut, ED ???  >:( ;D

  Had one buyer, commercial, that wanted special stuff. One time, we stopped at his shop, and he sorted through our table slabs. Once we put them back in the pile, the price went higher  :o :o  One piece, he wanted bad, but, wasn't at the shop. WE carried it home and back again, and he tried to cut the price. We re-loaded it and never sold to him again. He called a dozen times, and NOW, wants ALL the tropical wood I can deliver.   SORRY. Can you say hard-headed ???  That's us.  ::) :D :D

 
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

TexasTimbers

Gotta agree with FDH. "Defects" are charachter in the specialty markey. Guys who are looking for wood that will make their project stand out from the boring straight grain norm.

Specialty applications like when I am looking for wood for marimba keys then anything other than tight, straight grain, clear wood and it's a defect. But when I want wood to build a piece of furniture, as a general rule, "clear" wood is one big defect in my book.

Woodworkers looking for wood with character are willing to pay for it Kelvin you just have to hold on to that special piece sometimes until the right pair of eyes comes along and rips his hip pocket off as he is asking "How much!"  That is the market you need to cater to. It doesn't get developed overnight.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

woodworker9

Hello.  I'm pretty new to the forum, and love it.

I'll give you the viewpoint of a professional woodworker.  Crotches are fantastic for tabletops and cabinet doors.  I used bookmatched crotches all I can, and it's what my customers are paying the custom dollars for.  Noone gets too excited about a raised panel door glued up in 3" strips, but a bookmatched crotch door set looks fantastic, and brings in the money, too.

Daren has given great advice.  Don't try to sell it with the rest of the flat sawn walnut, etc...  Cut the crotches off, and make sure they are large enough for cabinet door panels, end tables, etc... because that is where they will be used.  I'm willing to pay double to triple the going board foot rate for really nice crotch wood, when I don't have any in stock from my own sawn stock. 

Jeff
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

Daren

Quote from: kevjay on August 17, 2007, 11:17:16 AM
Gotta agree with FDH. "Defects" are charachter in the specialty markey. Guys who are looking for wood that will make their project stand out from the boring straight grain norm.

hold on to that special piece sometimes until the right pair of eyes comes along

My Dad (and some of the guys he brings around) are perfect examples of that, as are some of my other long time customers. They know how my stacks are laid out, nice clear boards on top, down in the pile a ways are lesser boards with some "defects". First thing that bunch does is go to the piles and say "That there is a nice pretty board" looking at the top one... then start digging, cause they know there has to be some with more character. Knots, inclusions, a book with some sapwood on it...3 years ago I thought that stuff was bad and was ashamed of it, so I hid it in the bottom of the piles (like wrapping a $100 around a wad of $1s to look like a bankroll, I didn't sort it out to make my piles look bigger).  They are not the majority, but the exception to the rule, but they are out there. Once you make a customer like that, they are pretty easy to keep and they rarely come alone and never leave empty handed. It does take some time, but it pays better than selling a/d trailer decking.
Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.

Kelvin

Thanks guys, you helped a lot!  Especailly appreciate Darens post.  Thanks for all the time you put in.  Sounds good i'll give these ideas a try.  Right now my buyers are far and few between so i'm constantly thinking, well $2.50 for QS sycamore is okay if i've got nobody else.  Hate to do it, but i need the room.  Now occasionally i find someone who cares about it.  I ask, "how much is it worth to you" first when they ask me how much.  Still probably not getting top $ for it, but better than i started.  Makes me want to cry thinking about all the 15" wide 8' long cherry boards i sold for $1.50 early on b/c i wanted to be cheaper than the big mills.  Augh!  Funny thing, how many people walked away from those same boards.  I think 3 different people came to look at them and said "i can get that cheaper somewhere else" and left without even giving me a low ball offer.  NOw i sell those for $10+ a bd ft.  Wish i could buy them where those guys said they couild get them cheaper at.  Where is this place?  Thanks for the tips!
KP

Fla._Deadheader

  KELVINNNNNNN;D :D :D :D

  Daren posted on another thread, something you NEED to do.

  He sells a little wood on EBAY. I think you might have tried that, also.

  EBAY is NOT really for selling directly. It is THEEEEEE cheapest advertisement you can buy.

  They don't allow links to your website, (Get a website if you don't have one), and figure out how to leave your web address in a sale.  I think Daren has over written his web address on his photos. Also protects from people copying his photos. Soon, you will have visitors to your websit and buyers calling you. It will start out small, but, keep posting simple sales, and pay attention to detail. 
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Larry

Well, since ya asked...I'm clearing out some of my inventory to move south.  The last month sold well over 60 walnut crotch slabs up to $300 for the best, but had these two small orphans that got left behind.                                 

http://kansascity.craigslist.org/tls/398845143.html

Good flame brings the bucks...but rare.          
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Daren

Quote from: Fla._Deadheader on August 17, 2007, 06:26:07 PM

  He sells a little wood on EBAY. I think you might have tried that, also.

  EBAY is NOT really for selling directly. It is THEEEEEE cheapest advertisement you can buy.



Exactly. I keep one or 2 pieces on there at all times now, about $5-$8 worth of "out of pocket" advertisement. Some times the wood sells for prices that freak me out, way more than I figured. Other times they set...but it cost me $5 to get in front of MILLIONS of potential customers. I may sell $100 a week there for an hours labor and the price I get is fair for the stock I sell (how many times have you spend an hour in the shed with a customer and not made a sale?, plenty here), but have worked $1000 side deals in the same week off that same $5 listing. Those people keep my contact info and are return customers, some are not even registered with ebay, they just go there "window shopping". They don't trust the system, but will visit my site see I am a real dude and we deal the old fashion way. Shipping can be a hassle, but I move alot more wood than I would locally and for a better price.
This is what FDH was talking about at the bottom. I watermark my pictures with my web address, for the specific reasons he mentioned so people will visit my site and to keep from getting pirated. FYI this piece sold this week for $75, the buyer WILL buy more once he gets it, good wood at a good price. I made a few good contacts I think and $560 in side deals (not a great week, that is another ebay thing. The market swings boom or bust, that is why I always keep 1-2 cheap things listed. I have not figured out the cycle yet) But that was a just few e-mails, after the regular "business" was closed and I sold what I could to locals.
I am one of the last guys to take sawmill business advice from if you are looking to "get rich" at it. I have read your posts where you expressed concern about going broke at it. I have been there and can commiserate , I tried different stuff and have dug out of that hole and am on top and gaining.

Cut one of those crotches off, put it on ebay with a low starting bid and a $15 bft reserve. See what happens. If it does not sell you can "relist" for 1/2 price (I think?) for another week. If it does sell you know where you stand and can start upping the price. Those little chunks ship easy. Sell the 6' boards to the locals for the going rate and you know you will at least get 3X that in an auction for the crotch. Don't give up after the first listing if it doesn't pan out, like I said there is some weird cycle there. I just know if a piece sells for big $, immediately list similar. They are like sharks in the water there, once they smell blood they fight over your wood. It may seem like alot of extra work, but it does pay off in side deals (especially once you have a good number of + feedback) and return customers. I avoided that place like the plague at first, I was offended by the notion of auctioning MY wood. Then I figured out I could give wood away there and still make contacts /side deals.

One more thing in this ever growing post. It can be a benchmark for pricing to the locals. I may have a stack of lumber that I sold a piece of on ebay for $12 bft. If a local wants to haggle I just say "That's cool, I can sell the whole stack tomorrow for $12 on ebay" The confidence you have that it did sell for that can work for you. Some guys will back off, others will dig in their pockets. One way or the other the deal is done, it sells or they are out of your hair.

You are not going to sell a stick of "plain" wood for 1/2 of what it is worth there. I see k/d 1/4 sawn oak sell for less than $1 bft for 100 bft bundles. Crotches, curly and spalted goes good. Even rotten old silver maple and hackberry I have seen go for $10+ bft.

Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.

Kelvin

Hey thanks for the info Daren.  I'll have to try some of these ideas.  Of done a bit of ebay, but like you said, its really weird how the ups and downs go.  Sometimes you give away, sometimes you make out well.  I haven't had anyone try to contact me outside of ebay though.  I gotta try getting some info to them about my site.  I guess i better update my site too.
Thanks for taking the time.
KP

MikeH

 Thanks for the good info(great posts), I have quite a few white oaks with crotch on the last two feet. I think I have some 6' boards around now.  smiley_monkeyfight smiley_monkeyfight

treecyclers

My pricing schedule goes a little like this:
We'll assume that the species being marketed is Juniper (Popular, but tough to come by in quantities more than 50 boardfeet, except through me).
6" and narrower - $3.50/ft
6"-10" - $4.50/boardfoot
10"-14" - $6.00/boardfoot
14"-18" - $9.00/foot
18"+ - $14.00/foot.

The wider a board is, the more rare they are to come by, especially in Juniper. Defects are considered a good thing, and lengths are 5-12' long.
Figured stock adds 10-50% premium, depending on the quality and percentage of the board that's figured.
I offer discounts on quantity purchases, starting at 100 boardfeet.
Discount schedule goes something like this:
>100' - full retail price
100-250' - 5% discount
251-500' - 10%
500-1000' - 20%
1000' plus - 25%
I wake up in the morning, and hear the trees calling for me...come make us into lumber!

TexasTimbers

Geez I would not give a 10% discount off of my $1 - $1.25 BF on Juniper (ERC) for any reason, much less a 25%! I'd be giving it away at that price. No, I'd mor elike be paying people to let me cut lumber for them!

I don't know if I would do that even I was having trouble making sales. My cost does not go down the more lumber I sale and I can cut as much as the amount of business I am willing to take. I took my sign down a couple of weeks ago because I was having people stop by all day long and I could not get anything done.
I can't tell you what to do treecycler but if your discount schedule ius not well known there I would not advertise it. Once you do you're stuck with it.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

jim king

There is only one price for good quality crotch wood.  HIGH

$50 per bf is no problem for exotic crotches.  Wholesale. Here is a photo of a bloodwood turning blank crotch and a floor panel.







TexasTimbers

Jim I'm with you. I was speaking toward plain jane ERC. But figured/crotch/specialty etc. it all brings the highest dollar you can get. I tend to sell too cheap sometimes and other times I price things what I believe is way too high and it sells immediately anyway. Maybe it balances out.

That is some real pretty wood you have there.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Kelvin

thanks guys.  It helps to talk with people who have been there!

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