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Perfectly square cants from an early -Mizer?

Started by musikwerke, August 13, 2007, 08:53:50 PM

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musikwerke

Do any of you who own an early Wood-Mizer have trouble cutting square cants?  I find that if I am cutting a log that is, say, just big enough to get a 6" cant out of I have to slab the top and bottom first so I have 2 parallel surfaces; one to put against the side supports and the other to check for square using the log bunk for reference.  Sometimes I have to place a shim between either the top or bottom of the side support to hold the log exactly perpendicular depending on how it's clamping.  I have adjusted the side supports as true as humanly possible (I think) but when they are in the partially down position I can not rely on them to give me a right angle cut.  They're close, you'd never see it sawing boards but when I want a cant I want it square.  Is there another trick I've yet to learn?
John

Bibbyman

We've been sawing a lot of beams lately.  And a good number for a timber framer and now quite a lot for another company.  I've got the mill in pretty good adjustment so making them square is not a big problem.  But there is always a chance a chunk of bark or such may get between the cant and bed or back support.  So any time I suspect things may not be square,  I grab a carpenter's speed square and slap it on the bed rail and against the cant. With the two plain clamp it's pretty easy to tip it one way or the other to square it out.

When I'm really trying to get the cant as square as I can,  I'll make a flat, turn 180 and make sure nothing is between the cant and bed rail and then make the second flat.  Then turn up 90 and check with the speed square.



If it's really that important,  you could get a Lathe-Mizer and square them on it. 
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

musikwerke

Bibbyman,  That's exactly what I've been doing and I thank you for your input. Oddly enough, a Lathe-Mizer is on my 'want list'.  It would be lots of fun and probably the only way I'd make any real money with my mill on a part time basis up in this neck of the woods.  A sharpener and setter has to come first though.  Just can't decide on which one.  By the way, I've learned a huge amount from your posts. A BIG thanks!
John

logwalker

How early of a production date is your Woodmizer. Mine is a 1994 and it has back support adjustment in 2 planes. So it can be made to square in any position. Does yours not have this adjustability? Joe
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

musikwerke

Mine is a 1997 and it too has the side supports adjustable in both planes.  If I could leave the supports in the upright position there would be no problem.  It's when they are down far enough for the blade to clear that (I think) I have so little surface area to bear against that clamping can move the log a hair away from exactly vertical.
John

musikwerke

John

dad2nine

Honestly I don't think there is a perfectly square anything when it comes to green wood. You can get dog-gone close, but once the wood starts to dry it'll be out of sq in no time.

jpgreen

With my 95' I'm constantly eye balling for square as hard clamping can easily cause it to tilt out, so I hard clamp and watch how it tilts the cant, then back off on the clamp a little so you can see what the clamp is doing. Most of the time a soft but enough pressure on the clamp holds it square.

Another problem with the old clamp is much of the time it's either to tall in the upright position, or to low in the down position.  I made up a block that sits over the clamp to give me a mid height- 3" tall clamp and that works very well for small logs and certain sized cants. I want to fabricat the spacer block out of steel so it will set on well balanced without shifting around and not break like wood does.
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

Bibbyman

Quote from: jpgreen on August 14, 2007, 12:41:52 AM
Another problem with the old clamp is much of the time it's either to tall in the upright position, or to low in the down position.  I made up a block that sits over the clamp to give me a mid height- 3" tall clamp and that works very well for small logs and certain sized cants. I want to fabricat the spacer block out of steel so it will set on well balanced without shifting around and not break like wood does.

Our old hydraulic mill came with a little add-on do-hicky to make a clamp taller than "flap-down" yet taller than "flap-up".  I can't remember seeing a picture of one on the Forum.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

jpgreen

 smiley_clapping  "Flap up."  "Flap down."  "The Flapper" is what we need..  :D
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

sparks

musikwerke....You need to verify the side supports are set to the rails correctly and then verifify the blades is set the the rails as well. I emailed you the alignment procedure manual for your mill.   Thanks
\"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.\" Abraham Lincoln

TravisP

Sparks is there any way you could do the same for me I am have a  similar problem with alinment rails & dogs I have 2004 lt70  thanks
Learning to saw and loving it

JV

If I understand right, you are have trouble when the side supports are at a low angle. 
Occasionally, I will have a small cant appear to try to roll over the top of the supports on
my 2005 LT 40.  I don't know if you have a 2 plane clamp or not, but I have gotten in
the habit of hitting the down lever on my clamp.  Once the cant is snug, by pulling the clamp
down moves the cant back square to the bed.
John

'05 Wood-mizer LT40HDG28-RA, Lucas 613 Swing Mill, Stihl 170, 260 Pro, 660, 084 w/56" Alaskan Mill, 041 w/Lewis Winch, Case 970 w/Farmi Winch, Case 850 Crawler Loader, Case 90XT Skidloader, Logrite tools

Dave Shepard

musikwerke, what type of clamp is on your 87? Is it the lever type used on the newer manual mills? I am guessing you have no hydraulics on an 87. If that is the type of clamp you have, you need to make sure that the clamp is not above the height of the back stops. If you have a sawn side down on the bed rails, you should be able to put the clamp in the last or next to last slot. This puts the clamp closest to the bed, and is less likely to lift the cant off the bed.


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

musikwerke

Update!!  After thinking about all of your replies, I couldn't wait to get home tonight and at least check the alignment of my side supports ( even though I've done 2 complete alignments in as many weeks).  However, I didn't need to even get the wrenches out of the toolbox.  Many of you won't believe this but my side supports are worn, ie. a straight edge won't lie flat on them.  I don't know how I missed this 2 times around - actually maybe I do as I was following the factory alignment procedure and my square was hitting the bottom half of the side support nicely but I wasn't checking it all the way to the top never dreaming that a chunk of steel that thick could be worn.  My mill has 3 log bunks and 3 corresponding side supports.  The middle one is the worst.  It is straight from the hinge end up half-way and then it tapers away by 1/16" at the top.  And that is about how far my cants are out of square.  The other 2 side supports taper to about half that much or 1/32".  It stands to reason I suppose that the middle support would receive the brunt of the wear since that's where you stand most of the time when turning the log.  The mill has 2456 hours on the meter but I have to wonder what the previous owners were sawing that was that abrasive.  Anyway, I think that's 99% of my problem which I can live with until I decide how to fix it.  I was thinking of building them up with weld and grinding them flat but since they have to come off the mill anyway, it might be easier to put them on the milling machine and take a 1/16" cut off each one.
Thanks for all your feedback.  I might never have discovered this if I didn't have the urge to prove or disprove, to myself, all of your theories.
John

pineywoods

Hey them backstops will BEND and do exactly like you describe. Have a friend with an lt40 who has bent more than one. We never did figure out a good way to straighten them. He ordered new ones from WM.
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

Brucer

I had this problem when I was running Louis' 96 Wood-Mizer a few years back. He said he couldn't adjust it any better, but I gave it a try anyway. Had it perfectly square in the up and down positions. Then I tried to figure out how I could check the square in the half-raised position. That's when I discovered the powered stops were loose in when part way up.

Turns out that Louis never saw the need to grease the side stops. So the pins wore badly in the middle of their range ('cause that's where all the movement was happening). Stops aren't moving in the full up and full down position, so no wear at the two points where you adjust them.

The only solution was to replace the pins, and possibly even the side stops. No hope of ever getting Louis to do that.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

musikwerke

I ordered new side supports from Wood-Mizer today.  It seemed like the easiest thing to do.  80 bucks a piece but oh well.  I've replaced everything else questionable so why skimp on this.  Thanks again for all your input.
John

thecfarm

You say $80 each like it's alot,but if it's worth it to you than it's worth it.I like to have things right when it needs to be.There's alot of things that I spend money on that other people might not either bother with,but it makes me happy and that's all I care about when it comes to what I like or what I think I need.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Engineer

My side supports on my 1985 LT30 are tubular square posts, 2x2.  I can adjust them for square.  I suppose I could bend them but I'm not that tough.  Anyway, with proper adjustment being key, I can get really nice square cants out of a log if the log cooperates.

sparks

Travis...... I will need your email address to send you the proceedure.  Email it to me at "rlauman@woodmizer.com" Thanks
\"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.\" Abraham Lincoln

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