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Took some walnut logs to a butcher today

Started by Dodgy Loner, August 09, 2007, 03:14:14 PM

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Dodgy Loner

Quote from: jackpine on August 09, 2007, 10:36:26 PM
Very few want their hardwood grade sawn ( too much time and unequal widths?) but those that do only want the better logs grade sawn. Most here  use only short pieces so they say they can cut around the defects. In a really nice log I will ask the customer if I can grade saw it because I can't stand to see nice lumber wasted.

I've been a bit confused about how cutting a knot at a 45 deg. angle could possibly be better for grade lumber.  However, I think your comment about the increased time and the unequal widths has caused me to understand what y'all are getting at.  Let me explain:

The picture on the left displays how my sawyer cut my logs.  The one on the right is how I like my logs to be cut.

I like this method because it confines the defect to the smallest number of boards possible without increasing the amount of time it takes to saw the boards.  Also, the boards in the center with the knots generally have to be cut in half anyway because they crack around the pith.  However, is it correct that when you are grade sawing, you would turn the log after each cut to keep the defect on the edge?  If that's the case, then I can assure you that this guy had no intention of doing that.  It wouldn't have worked with these logs, anyway.  However, I'm glad this method of sawing was brought to my attention, because it might be worth the extra time if I ever need clear full-length boards for, say, wall paneling.  However, I still think that the method I use will yield more clear lumber overall, just not in full lengths.

Also, if I have the right idea now, then shame on everyone for not bringing that to my attention earlier ;).
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Bibbyman

Quote from: Brad_S. on August 09, 2007, 09:59:27 PM
Quote from: Bibbyman on August 09, 2007, 09:30:21 PM

If it were my log it would be in the firewood pile. 
Then you'd miss a profitable sale! :)

Nope.  I live in a different place and time.  In the 13 years we've been in business I've never had someone even ask for crotch wood.



I probably put a 100 logs like this to death through the Blockbuster last winter.  It all sold.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

beenthere

DL
There was a discussion on grade sawing a couple year ago, here

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=14727.0

That publication mentioned by Malcolm has some diagrams that may help explain what some are trying to say.

Grade sawing hardwood logs

Boils down to what you want.....but I would think the highest grade and clear cuttings for furniture/woodworking would go hand-in-hand, as a general rule-of-thumb anyway.  :) :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Dan_Shade

 

that's a really sloppy diagram of how I would cut that log if I were "grade sawing"

this has been a good topic of discussion.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

woodbeard

QuoteThe picture on the left displays how my sawyer cut my logs.  The one on the right is how I like my logs to be cut.

I like this method because it confines the defect to the smallest number of boards possible without increasing the amount of time it takes to saw the boards.


OK, I see. But in the picture, the log is being sawn " through and through ",  which is why the knot placement works well. In grade sawing, you cut from all four sides, so it seems like the other way would work better. Not criticising here, just trying to understand what is going on.


QuoteI probably put a 100 logs like this to death through the Blockbuster last winter.
Bibby, those look like the walnut logs I been sawing. :D

Dan- your post came in while I was typing- Thanks. It may be sloppy, but it clears things up for me. I think I will try it out today.


Brad_S.

Bibbyman,
Most of the logs in your photo deserved their fate even in this part of the world until recently. DL's log had the potential for crotch wood, most in your photo are just gnarly. However, with walnut being a hot wood again, a local buyer will buy DanG near anything no matter how small or ugly. I'm told it goes to Quebec and becomes parquet flooring. smiley_speechless
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

arkansas

Just read this entire post and want to thank all here, some very good info. but I would like to add one thing on the grade sawing, and I think Dan's mark up shows it but not real sure, when I grade saw, once the good boards run out, the log or cant at this time gets blocked in to the biggest piece possible for market, being a cross tie, or pallet. In my part of the world if the lumber coming off is not 2 com. or better it is best to get it off the mill as soon as possible and see if the next log has something to offer. Grade sawing is not what the original poster was after.  As always just my opinion.
Michael
Working on a hot LT40HD for now

Bibbyman

Quote from: Brad_S. on August 10, 2007, 06:38:51 AM
Bibbyman,
Most of the logs in your photo deserved their fate even in this part of the world until recently. DL's log had the potential for crotch wood, most in your photo are just gnarly. However, with walnut being a hot wood again, a local buyer will buy DanG near anything no matter how small or ugly. I'm told it goes to Quebec and becomes parquet flooring. smiley_speechless

We sawed walnut for one broker for three years - probably around 300,000 bf of walnut and other stuff.  



He bought everything but he left it up to us to decide if it was worth sawing.

Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Daren

Quote from: Bibbyman on August 10, 2007, 01:36:34 AM


Nope.  I live in a different place and time.  In the 13 years we've been in business I've never had someone even ask for crotch wood.



I have a standing order right now I cannot fill...and the contact numbers to 3 more guys on the list who each want more than the first guy. Brad_S is right about the flooring, that is what these guys use it for. Walnut crotch and white oak crotch, the one guy spends $30,000-$50,000 a year on it  :o . Flooring inlays and door/drawer panels .I may be asking for some FF help here soon once I get some things shook out. One guy will buy "in the log", but pay more for it sawn .40" (or whatever the woodmizer number just below that is).
It has to be feather crotch, the bigger the better obviously.
Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.

Larry

Grade sawing by nature promotes long and narrow boards.  Sawing for the some of the higher end woodworkers usually means short and as wide as possible...complete opposite.

Something else I have noticed in walnut.  The beginning woodworker desires FAS1F while the expert is looking in the 2C stack.

I saw a lot of natural edge walnut crotches...in the last month I have sold about 60.  Price works out to lot more than the wholesale price of face.  I like to saw them and they are easy to sell...if you have the right customers.  Guess the reason they are easy to sell is that you don't find any in the wholesale market.

In any case, the competent sawyer should take the time to find out what a customer desires and than just do it...with a smile. :)  
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Fla._Deadheader


Daren, something like this too big ???



  These are 2" thick X 39" wide X 11' long.  ;D ;D

  Coulda had them for $2.00 a bd/ft.  ::) ::)
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Kansas

There is one aspect to this thread that no one has commented on. The sawyer brought in his mill (dont know how far), set it up.... sawed 5 logs, then packed back up and went home, all for 50 dollars. Granted, he should have cut those logs a lot faster than 2.5 hours. Still, with some of the logs being crooked and knotty, they can take longer to saw than a good log. I would guess a reasonable amount of time would be 1- 1 1/4 hours saw time. Put in the setup and takedown time, plus whatever road time he had, he would have had a minimum of 2 hours, as a best possible scenario.  How in the world can you operate on 25 dollars an hour?

Daren

Quote from: Fla._Deadheader on August 10, 2007, 08:06:12 AM

Daren, something like this too big ???



  These are 2" thick X 39" wide X 11' long.  ;D ;D

  Coulda had them for $2.00 a bd/ft.  ::) ::)

WOW, those are some real beauties. Why didn't you have them for $2.00 a bft ?...if you know who has them I will be generous and give them $3.00  :D
Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.

Fla._Deadheader


I was 5 hours from where I was visiting with Fred, here in CR, and the Yota land Cruiser is VERY short.  ::) ::) :o ;D

  I'm sure they's gone.  ::) ::)

  Won't happen again, though.  8) :D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: Kansas on August 10, 2007, 08:08:29 AM
There is one aspect to this thread that no one has commented on. The sawyer brought in his mill (dont know how far), set it up.... sawed 5 logs, then packed back up and went home, all for 50 dollars. Granted, he should have cut those logs a lot faster than 2.5 hours. Still, with some of the logs being crooked and knotty, they can take longer to saw than a good log. I would guess a reasonable amount of time would be 1- 1 1/4 hours saw time. Put in the setup and takedown time, plus whatever road time he had, he would have had a minimum of 2 hours, as a best possible scenario.  How in the world can you operate on 25 dollars an hour?

The 2.5 hours is how long it took him from the time he showed up until the time the last board was sawn.  Let me break down the time this guy spent on sawing the logs: 

The sawmill was already set up to mill my friend's pine logs, so that's not included.

He spent about 20 minutes getting everything in order; lubing the rails, running the cutterhead back and forth so it wouldn't be so jumpy, testing all the hydraulics, etc.

After making 2 cuts with his rusty blade he decided it was too dull (really? ::)) and had to go to my friend's barn to get another one.  That cost him another 10 or 15 minutes.

He ran out of gas halfway through the job and didn't bring any with him, so he had to leave me twiddling my thumbs for 30 minutes while he drove to the nearest gas station.

The rest of the time he spent actually sawing the logs, so that only took a little bit longer than it should have.  He probably would have gotten it done in less than 75 minutes if he had let me turn the logs for him.  If he had been more prepared (ie, brought some gas with him) and showed up a little earlier (rather than an hour late) to get his mill in order, it would have saved both of us a lot of time.

Quote from: Larry on August 10, 2007, 07:58:25 AM
Grade sawing by nature promotes long and narrow boards.  Sawing for the some of the higher end woodworkers usually means short and as wide as possible...complete opposite.

Something else I have noticed in walnut.  The beginning woodworker desires FAS1F while the expert is looking in the 2C stack.

I saw a lot of natural edge walnut crotches...in the last month I have sold about 60.  Price works out to lot more than the wholesale price of face.  I like to saw them and they are easy to sell...if you have the right customers.  Guess the reason they are easy to sell is that you don't find any in the wholesale market.

In any case, the competent sawyer should take the time to find out what a customer desires and than just do it...with a smile. :)   

Exactly, someone understands me!  You sound like the kind of guy I would be happy to bring my business to  :).
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

MikeH

 I charge 75$ hr. show up on time with a sharp blade and plenty of diesel, takes 5 minutes to set up and 5 minutes to talk, which includes telling them to wave, yell, do wantever to get my attention if they want something different. Would have finished your walnut (250bdft) within the hour unless you were waving to stop every other board. Most times the custumer is very happy and about half the time they add a few dollars extra. Although you did save $25.

Dodgy Loner

Mike, you will be happy to know - and I'm sure you already do - that there are many, many people who will pay a little extra to get what they want.  I am most definitely one of those people.  Also, coming to a job on time (or at least calling ahead if you must be late) and prepared is a great way to show a customer that you respect him and that you take pride in your work.  Finally, that 5 minutes you take to talk to your customer is probably one of the most important things you can do to make sure he will be happy.  Knowing what the customer plans to do with the wood (Sell it? Make cabinets, furniture, flooring? Frame a barn? Does he need consistent widths or is random okay?) will help you to better understand your customer's needs.  This sawyer did not even ask me how thick I wanted my lumber to be before he started sawing.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

tcsmpsi

If someone else has logs they would like sawn, I am appreciative if they can tell me just how they would like them sawn.  It's their wood.  If it was something I deemed as borderline ridiculous, I would make mention of the problems, but, as long as it wasn't dangerous, was at least somewhat reasonable, and they remained firm in their stance, regarless of my rationale,  I would be more than happy to accomodate them.

You can turn logs down here anytime, DL.    :D
\\\"In the end, it is a moral question as to whether man applies what he has learned or not.\\\" - C. Jung

Max sawdust

Quote from: Larry on August 10, 2007, 07:58:25 AM
Grade sawing by nature promotes long and narrow boards.  Sawing for the some of the higher end woodworkers usually means short and as wide as possible...complete opposite.

In any case, the competent sawyer should take the time to find out what a customer desires and than just do it...with a smile. :)  

Yup, I second that.  ;D ;D :-X

max
True Timbers
Cedar Products-Log & Timber Frame Building-Milling-Positive Impact Forestscaping-Cut to Order Lumber

Faron

I had a customer once insist I should follow the taper in  a log by raising the saw head as I went. :o :D  The customer ain't always right. ;)
Grade sawing is about getting the longest, widest, clearest pieces out of a log as possible, hence the most value.  That usually means putting knots at a 45° angle when possible.  That places the knot at the edge of the board where it is sometimes edged off, or on a wider board leaves good lumber beside the knot.  I have a few customers I saw crotch lumber through and through for.  I will saw whatever meets the customer's needs.  One of my best customers started out wanting to tell me how to saw and when to turn.  We reached agreement that he tells me what he is looking for, and I decide how to get it.
Sounds like this fellow didn't really know what he was doing, or how to take care of his machine.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.  Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. - Ben Franklin

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Hey, Dodgy!
When this sawmiller of your nightmares saw your walnut, he might
have thought, "Oh man, knots and leaners;  this stuff is firewood and reaction wood."
Believe me I have let myself go down that downer road mentally before.  I am wrong
to do so and should be grateful for work to do.

One thing all of us have to keep in mind regarding the 45 deg. issue
and grade sawing, also, is that many logs that are cut for "creative use,"
do not qualify for grade sawing:  They just don't logically fit the sawing
pattern.  I have cut many of those.

Whenever I am cutting that "sort" for a customer, I do my best to
determine what the customer wants or exactly how they want the cuts.
When you get right down to it, however, only pretty good butt logs
will respond to the proper 45 deg. grade sawing technique, complete
with attentiveness toward sawing parallel with the bark and confining
the taper to the juvenile wood in the heart area, etc.

True grade sawing, as defined above, is tough on a swinger, unless you have
the toys made for them by Fabrik, so I, often, when cutting for myself for grade,
cheat a bit by how I initially set the log.  When the situation is large high-quality
logs for a customer wanting the best grade, then I have to bite the bullet and
plan to adjust the log vertically and laterally to get the necessary cuts.

At least now you can open your instructions to an unknown sawyer with
something like, "Now I realize that you might automatically saw this log [blank],
but I want it sawed like this for a special project I have in mind.  Here is how it
needs to be."  This thread has educated us all on both the customer's and the
sawyer's perspective.

Phil L.                   P.S. I sometimes wish for hydraulics.   Lifting a 500-600 lb.
                                  upright piano is rough on your back.  I gave that up 25
                                  years after the doctors told me to.   The shock that
                                  a 60" peavy can give to the old spinal column at times
                                  seems just as rough as the piano lifting.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: Faron on August 10, 2007, 10:50:02 PM
I had a customer once insist I should follow the taper in  a log by raising the saw head as I went. :o :D  The customer ain't always right. ;)

I bet he would have been pretty disappointed with the result if you had actually tried that. :D :D

I am grateful for all the information that I have gleaned from this thread since I started it.  It was overly presumptuous of me to assume that there was no good reason to put the knots at 45 deg.  It is something I may try in the future if I have the right log and the right end use.  However, my walnut logs were certainly not the right logs to try it on, especially considering that he was sawing them through-and-through.

The way I like my logs sawn works well for the way I do woodworking, but I know other woodworkers who don't like lumber over 6" wide because they are limited by the width of their jointer.  I typically like my lumber as wide as possible, because it provides greater flexibility and allows me to manipulate the grain more easily.  For example, if the grain runs at an angle to the side of a board, I will often rip an edge bandsaw to follow the grain. 

In the end, it is always important for a custom sawyer to be familiar with his customer's needs.  If the fellow who sawed my logs had been respectful of me and taken the time to ask me what I wanted, he might have gotten my business in the future if my regular sawyer were unable to do a job for me for some reason.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

DanG

I always interview my customers and try to get a feel for their level of knowledge.  If they know their wood, they'll tell me how they want it sawn.  If they don't have a clue, then I ask what they'll be using it for, then I make recommendations and saw it accordingly.  I also try to brief them on the limitations of my saw and of their logs, so they don't get any nasty surprises.  That policy seems to be working well. ;) :)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

LeeB

I try to get a feel for what the customer wants before I ever put blade to wood. As mentioned, sometimes the customer doesn't really know. Thats's when I make suggestions and still try to let the customer decide. Quite often I will saw as you want your logs sawn DL. I do woodworking myself and feel I have a prety good eye for the unique and usable grain patterns you are looking for. I guess what I practice is grade sawing for caracter. However if the customer wants construction lumber,. thats what they get. I try to get the most value out of every log to the customers needs and saw like it was my own.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

isawlogs

 Well I also like to ask of my customers what they are expecting from there logs , I also like to do as they want , but sometimes it just cant be done . In this case , it would of been to easy to do as asked .  ;)

   Now that been said  ;D  What in da world does this translate to in Shakespears tongue  ;) Just because the grade-sawing gods have deemed that ye must always turn the knots at a 45 degree angle lest ye be smited  doesn't mean you have to listen to them.

  When ever I think I can run wit yous guys ... one throws a curve ball  :D :D :D
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

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