Took some walnut logs to a butcher today

[Dodgy Loner]

Last month, a friend of mine had a walnut tree blow over in a storm on his property.  He offered it to me, and told me that he had just had a custom sawyer mill 15,000 bd. ft. of pine framing lumber on his property.  He told me that the sawyer had done an excellent job, and that he could arrange for the sawyer to come over and mill the walnut logs whenever he had a chance (the mill was still set up on my friend's property).  I'm picky about how my lumber is sawn, but I reluctantly agreed because it would be much easier than loading the logs onto a trailer and hauling them 30 minutes away to the guy who normally saws my lumber.

I went to my friend's house early this morning to buck the logs because the sawyer was supposed to be there at 8 AM.  The tree forked low to the ground into 3 trunks, ranging from 11-16" in diameter.  I got three 7' logs and two 8.5' logs from the tree.  The 8.5' logs were very straight, the others were not, and all of them were a bit knotty (but I've seen worse).  Except for the two biggest ones, they were the kind of logs that I probably would have cut for firewood, were it not for the fact that I don't have any walnut lumber to work with.  In any case, they were the kind of logs that would test a sawyer's competence.

When I saw the guy's WM LT-40 Super Hydraulic mill, I got even more worried.  It had obviously spent more time outside than stray dog.  The pink paint that should've been orange was peeling all over, and the blade was covered in rust.  To top it off, the guy showed up an hour late, even though my friend made it clear to him that I had to be at work by 11 AM.  When the guy cranked the engine, it puttered and stuttered and sounded like it was perpetually running out of gas.  The hydraulics were, shall we say, groggy?  Some of them, like the log rollers which can be very handy for leveling crooked logs (like mine) didn't even work.  The cutter head lurched forward on the tracks as it was moving until he applied a liberal coating of transmission fluid.  Not exactly the type of sawmill you dream about.

We loaded the first log onto the bed, and he spent about five minutes trying to fenagle it into position with the lethargic hydraulic arm.  (I could have done it in 10 seconds with my peavey, but I've learned that these hydraulic mill owners would rather spend half the day trying to get a log into position with the hydraulics than to lift a finger to do it by hand, or even to let me do it by hand.  Even my regular sawyer is guilty of that.)  When he was finally satisfied and got it locked in, I gave him an inquisitive look as if to say, "Are you seriously thinking about sawing the log like that?"  The log had three big knots, all on one side.  Any idiot should have known to point those knots straits up for the first slab, so that after the cant was squared up, they would be horizontal to the bed and confined to 2 or 3 boards.  Instead, he had the knots cocked at an angle where they would end up in half the boards, regardless of which face he was sawing when the cant was squared.  When he started adjusting the cutterhead, I dispensed with the inquisitive body language and asked him to move it into a move suitable position.  He glared and me and assured me that it would be fine >:(.  I bit my tongue...until 2 logs later, when he had one of the crooked logs on the saw and had squared up 2 sides.  He turned it to square up a third side, and the log was laying with one of the knots on a rail, so it was out of parallel with the bed by about 3 inches.  He locked it down that way, but I refused to let him butcher another log.  I pointed out the mistake and again he glared at me and told me that it would be fine.  This time, I informed him that not only was I the person who would have to use the lumber, I was also the person who would be writing the check when he was done.  He unclamped it, and I slid it back where I wanted it.  The last two logs were the two biggest and straighest, and he sawed them without any major incidents (though he insisted on using the hydraulics to turn them and refused my offer to do it by hand, which would have been much quicker :.  Did I mention that I was supposed to be at work by 11?  Didn't happen.)

By the time it was all over, I was pretty upset and he obviously knew it.  When he told me how much I owed him, I was all prepared to inform him how much I thought his services were really worth.  Instead, he asked, "Is fifty bucks alright?"  For 2.5 hours of work and 250 board feet of walnut, however butchered it may be?  That sounded about right.  I wrote him a check and I hope never have todeal with him again.

To all the sawyers out there who take pride in their work and know how to saw a log, I applaud you.  I've been spoiled, because until today, all of my lumber has been sawn by WDH, or by my regular sawyer (who is a fellow woodworker and knows what he's doing, and more importantly, how to listen), or by yours truly (on a borrowed mill).  I honestly had no idea how inattentive and idiotic a sawyer could be until today.

To all the sawyers out there who will listen to a customer and go the extra mile to make him happy, I applaud to even more.  But you're probably already reaping the benefits.  Rather than potentially earning a customer or, heck, even learning how to saw something other than framing lumber, this guy decided he would rather be a stubborn SOB.  He saw me as some stupid kid, rather than as a forester and woodworker who has been sawing hardwood lumber as a hobby for more than 6 years.  I hope I never get to the point where I think I know my profession too well to learn anything from anybody else.

I didn't mean for this to be so long, I just needed to vent some frustration (and it's not like I'm forcing you to read it ;)).  Maybe it'll be an eye-opener for somebody out there (probably not, everyone on this forum is open-minded and and expert sawyer...or so they tell me ;D).

[Dan_Shade]

i typically put the knots at a 45 degree angle when setting a log up.  But i'll do whatever the owner wants me to do!

did he have a 2 plane clamp?

[Dodgy Loner]

I don't know what a 2-plane clamp is.

I understand why you would put the knots at a 45 degree angle when milling framing lumber, or for any lumber where you intend to use the whole board.  A knot that runs all the way across such a board would be useless.  But when you're sawing wood for furniture, you will rarely, if ever, use the whole board.  Putting the knots at 45 degrees just ends up ruining more boards.

[Dan_Shade]

you want the knots up or out at 90 degrees in framing lumber, so that the knot is in the middle of the board.  you want it at the edges of grade wood so that you can edge them out

But like I said, i'll do whatever somebody wants.  I've found with the 45 degree idea, i can get minimally impacted boards with knots in them.

[Dodgy Loner]

I guess I can see what you're getting at, but I don't, and I never have, cut wood for grading (or for framing, for that matter).  I cut wood for making furniture, and I know how to do it well.  To me (and to other furniture makers I know), it makes more sense to confine the knots to as few boards as possible.  The boards that do have knots, will have knots that go all the way to the pith, but you can cut between them for shorter pieces and still have full-width material.  Cutting the entire edge of a board off is more wasteful, but if it yields a higher grade of lumber I guess it's worth it if that's what you're after.  You'd still have knots in the middle of the inner boards if you cut the knots at 45 degrees, which could not be edged out.

Another reason I like boards parallel to the knots, you can get crotchwood with no pith, which I use all the time in small projects.

Basically, the reason the guy upset me is because he didn't want to accept any input from me, and I'm the person who's going to have to use that junk he cut.  If he had just been willing to listen to me, I would have been a lot happier.  He shouldn't have assumed that he knew the best way the cut the lumber for my purposes.

[woodbeard]

Hmm. I am interested to hear more about this 90 vs. 45 deg knot placement thing.
I have been placing them straight up or to the side all the time. I hadn't heard of putting them at 45 deg for grade sawing like Dan mentions, but it kinda makes sense.
I am doing mostly grade sawing right now. Cherry this week, but spent a couple weeks sawing walnut, mostly the sort of "challenging logs" Dodgy is talking about, and probably worse.

[Dodgy Loner]

From the looks of my boards, the "45 degree theory" wouldn't hold much water, but I bet it works better when the knots are smaller.  Like I said, these were pretty bigs knots in the first log.

[Bibbyman]

I don't know of any kind of grade sawing that don't try to put the major defects, like knots, at 45°  so there is a chance they will be edged out or minimize defect.

If I have a log with three clear faces and one that is nothing but defect, I may turn that face up and make a cut or two and then cut everything else off the other three faces first - then the rest goes to the firewood processor.

[Dan_Shade]

what I do know is it's a lot easier to saw really nice logs into really nice lumber!

[metalspinner]

My friend hired a sawyer to mill logs for him once.  It was a summers worth of sawing!  All of his logs were in the normal size range from 12" - 20".  Well, he had one oak log that was 36".  It was perectly straight, round, 16' and clear as a bell. A beautiful log.
Throughout the summer, I would pop in to watch the show and spend time offloading and stacking and just generally have a good time.  Sometimes I would ask a question like "Why are you cutting the wood at 15/16" ?"  "What is this wave in all the boards?"  "Boy that saw is moving really  fast." Things like that.  I genuinely didn't know.  I was not trying to be a smart a$$ or anything.  All of my friends boards had something like this about them that just didn't seem right.  Many, many thousands of BF.  Obviously, my friend didn't know any better, either.

So anyway, one day I show up to help out, and my buddy looks like he is just about implode with frustration.  They finally get to the big oak mentioned above and they were going to quartersaw it.  I showed up after the first eight foot log had been sawn and they were just starting the second log.  A pile of QS(?) boards were laying there and the boards just didn't look right - as usual.  But something about these just really didn't seem right.  After scratching my head a bit and looking at the mill, I realized that he sawed the entire log with the toe roller elevated.  Every board was tapered in every plane.  I mentioned this to my buddy and pointed to the roller on the saw.  This was while the the saw was running.  The instant the miller saw me point to the front of the saw he had realized the mistake.

Well, the point of this long winded story was that during the cutting of this log, my buddy kept mentioning to the sawyer that the the boards just didn't look right.  The guy kept telling him, "That's QS lumber for you." :  He didn't want to take just a minute to stop and listen to what was being said.

The look on his face when he realized that toe roller was up is something I'll never forget. :D

[SAW MILLER]

  All of the information I have read or been taught says to put your knot on a 45 to saw grade lumber.And grade lumber is what is used to build  furniture.But,if the customer wants me to saw a log into kindlin wood I will do iot ;D
  After all ,He is paying the bill...

[olyman]

i related this on another forum--wife and i went to a old time steam show two years ago--they had a  56??? inch sawmill setup--and while talking to a gent there--found out it was his trees(2 30 dia soft pines--iowa) being cut--watched the guy running the mill--and thought--why is he squaring the log that way--and i dont own a mill yet-----------he turned it for the final square--and theres this big knot on the side--this clown proceded to saw it with the knot straight up and down-soooooooo--every board for like the next 10 inches broke offf right at the knot!!!!!!! wonder why??? so the gent i made friends with--(sometimes foot in mouth!!!!!) said to him--you see those boards breaking off??? he looked--as he hadnt been watching--said ya--i said--id fire the log boss--he said--hes my exs brother!!!! oh my--but i meant it--it ruined 24 inch wide boards that were 22 foot long!!!!! and they broke off 8 foot from the end-------sheesh

[Dan_Shade]

easy on the fellas that saw a cant with the taper roller up!  it can happen to anybody, honest!
I'd never admit it, though....

[Kelvin]

The first rule is customer is always right, which settles the rest of the problems.  Like Arkysawyer said, grade sawing rule of thumb is "corner the knots" so they can be edged off, but like him if you can contain them all on one face leaving 3 clear that is sometimes the way to go.  Grade seems to be all about longest clear cuttings, while customers needs don't often reflect what the industry has setup.  Us sawmillers can be a stubborn bunch i guess.  People who choose to work for themselves are a different lot.  Also being there an hour late is a good indicator that someone doesn't care about other peoples feelings.  Luckily you have access to a sawyer who does things the way you like, and obviously listens to you.
Kelvin

[Dodgy Loner]

All of the information I have read or been taught says to put your knot on a 45 to saw grade lumber.And grade lumber is what is used to build furniture.But,if the customer wants me to saw a log into kindlin wood I will do iot ;D
After all ,He is paying the bill...

After reading these posts, I am sure now that the guy's mindset was sawing for grade.  The goal of grade sawing, as all of you are surely aware, is to get the most $$$ value out of the log.  I have never sawn for grade because I don't sell my lumber.  I saw logs to get the most clear lumber, which is not quite the same.  I don't care if I end up with a couple boards from the middle of the cant that have to be cut into short pieces, because I rarely use boards longer than 3-4 feet anyway.  For me, cutting 2" off the entire length an 8' long board because of a couple of knots on the edge, would be downright stupid, because it will probably be cut into shorter lengths anyway.  But if you're selling your lumber then it's a good idea, because it will increase the value of the board by improving the grade.

Also, a problem with sawing for grade with a log like I had was that there was not going to be a single flawless board from the whole thing.  So cutting a couple big knots from the edge when there are still several other knots sprinkled throughout the board wouldn't improve the grade greatly.

what I do know is it's a lot easier to saw really nice logs into really nice lumber!

If yer givin' away really nice walnut logs, sign me up!  Until then, I'll just hafta take what I can git. ;D

Luckily you have access to a sawyer who does things the way you like, and obviously listens to you.
Kelvin

I absolutely am.  Custom sawing is a service industry, and in the service industry, your goal always has to be to make the customer happy.  Being hard-headed and doing things the way you've always done them, regardless of what the customer requests, is not the way to keep a customer.

[woody1]

I have had customers where it's better just to shake their had and say " I thank you for the work you have given me, but I don't want to work for you anymore." Some customers will take advantage of you trying to be accomadating.

[Bibbyman]

The first rule is customer is always right,

Kelvin

I've often done what the customer wants and took his money. He's happy, I'm happy. But that don't make him right.

[thecfarm]

If I was sawing for some else,I would ask them what they wanted and saw it the way they would want.We can all learn something new or differant at times.I want certain things done when I buy something.Alot of times I'm met with you won't need that.If I'm paying for it,I will get it the way I want it.I told one person,who was paying for it,you or me.I was,of course,I got it my way.Like I say,I work to hard for my money not to have it done my way.Be it right or wrong.

[Part_Timer]

looks to me like you just found the perfect reason to get that mill you've been wanting. 

I try and turn the knots at a 45 if I can but dont' get to carried away.  I just edge them out as I go.  If I can cut a 6" clear board or an 8" with a knot in the center I cut the 6" then cut a sticker out of the knot then cut the next clear board.  I make suggestions to the customer but it's his check book at the end of the day.

[Dodgy Loner]

I have had customers where it's better just to shake their had and say " I thank you for the work you have given me, but I don't want to work for you anymore." Some customers will take advantage of you trying to be accomadating.

Sounds like you think I'm hard to please.  I promise, I'm not.  I just went back and looked at the flitch of boards in question, and the knots that I mention are in 4 boards, where they could have easily been confined to 2.  The boards are only 6" wide, and they would need 4, 3, 2 and 1 inches edged off of them to be made clear (sorry, no pictures, it was dark.  I can take some this weekend).  There's no point in sawing boards like that with the knots at 45 degrees, and the sawyer should have known that (or at least listened to me when I ask him to rotate it 1/8 of a turn).  Just because the grade-sawing gods have deemed that ye must always turn the knots at a 45 degree angle lest ye be smited doesn't mean you have to listen to them.  It's okay to use your head once in a while.

I've often done what the customer wants and took his money. He's happy, I'm happy. But that don't make him right.

Perhaps I'm reading you wrong, but it sounds as if you think I don't know what I'm doing.  Let me ask you this, how would you saw this log for grade?  10" DBH, sapwood half rotted, major crook, and several knots.


Sure, you could turn the knots at an angle, but if you did, there wouldn't be anything left.  I sawed this log like I saw all logs: to get the most clear lumber (although I usually only leave my smallest logs natural-edge).  

This table is the result, and I just finished another table from the same log that required 50% more lumber.  Most people wouldn't have thought there was a stick of sawable lumber in that log.

looks to me like you just found the perfect reason to get that mill you've been wanting.

I try and turn the knots at a 45 if I can but dont' get to carried away. I just edge them out as I go. If I can cut a 6" clear board or an 8" with a knot in the center I cut the 6" then cut a sticker out of the knot then cut the next clear board. I make suggestions to the customer but it's his check book at the end of the day.

I'm counting down the days

[Bibbyman]

Perhaps I'm reading you wrong, but it sounds as if you think I don't know what I'm doing.  Let me ask you this, how would you saw this log for grade?  10" DBH, sapwood half rotted, major crook, and several knots.

It's not a grade log.  If it were my log it would be in the firewood pile.  If a customer wanted it sawn,  I'd try to get the most out of it I could in the least amount of time and effort.

Looks like it's already been "live" sawn and restacked.

[woody1]

Great workmenship. No, I was not insinuating that you were hard to please. I was talking about your statement that you always have to please the customer. Some customers take advantage of that thought. You can run the peavy on mill anytime you want.

[Brad_S.]

If it were my log it would be in the firewood pile. 

Then you'd miss a profitable sale!
I would saw it just as it has been sawn in an effort to get as much crotch wood out of it as possible. Selling it as a boule as shown can fetch top dollar, perhaps even as much or more than an equal amount of FAS boards. You just have to find the right buyer, and that's were the art of niche selling comes into play.

Edit: I'd like to modify the above by adding that it would be worth it only if it's cherry or walnut. Oak, ash, etc. would go in my firewood pile too.

[jackpine]

This has been a very interesting thread. I think the different points of view are determined by what and how a person is used to sawing. A grade sawyer is going to have a different perspective than a custom sawyer.

As I only do custom sawing I alwasys ask my first-time customers what they're looking for in finished lumber and how they want it sawn. Some have no idea and tell me " you're the expert, just saw it". I then try to find out what they are going to use the lumber for and suggest how it should be sawn. If they have a specific way they want it sawn and I don't feel it's right I will point out the problem and suggest a better way but in the end, if they insist, that is how it's sawn.

Very few want their hardwood grade sawn ( too much time and unequal widths?) but those that do only want the better logs grade sawn. Most here  use only short pieces so they say they can cut around the defects. In a really nice log I will ask the customer if I can grade saw it because I can't stand to see nice lumber wasted.

Regarding hydraulics, I turn a lot of small logs by hand because it's much faster and easier than using the turner. Some of my customers catch on and turn them for me to speed things up. I charge by the hour ;D

DL, in the end you were right to feel your sawyer should have listened to your wishes, you were paying the bill. Many of my repeat customers have told me the main reason they come back is that I saw what they want, not what I want to do.

[Dodgy Loner]

It's not a grade log.

Exactly.  You can't saw a log like that like it's a grade log, but that's exactly what this guy was trying to do with my knotty walnut logs.

If it were my log it would be in the firewood pile.

I would usually cut such a log for firewood, too.  But this one has a special story behind it.  A friend of mine had her house and everything in it burnt to the ground several years ago.  The heat from the fire killed this tree.  A couple years later, she found out I was a woodworker, and she told me about the tree, which was still standing beside the patch of ground where here house had once stood.  She didn't want anything from the log - she just wanted to do something nice for me.  I couldn't resist taking the tree and trying to figure out how I could use it.  The table in the picture is one I built for myself; the second table is for her.  She doesn't even know I was making it for her.  Can't wait to see the look on her face .

You can run the peavy on mill anytime you want.

I'd be happy to.  As you might have guessed, I like to be involved in my sawing jobs ;)