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Biomass ethanol plant

Started by Faron, August 09, 2007, 06:55:20 AM

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OneWithWood

No need to apologize glgdiggs.  You speak the truth.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

DanG

'Tis the truth he doth speak, indeed, as long as you only think of solar in terms of panels.  It does take a lot of energy to make corn alcohol, and that is expensive if you have to make that energy just for the purpose.  Heat is energy, and just happens to be the type of energy you need to make alcohol.  Any idea how much energy we create specifically for the purpose of getting rid of heat?  Why not use some of the heat for a purpose, like making ethanol, and save some of the energy that we're currently using to cool things.  Of course, it would take not only a major re-tooling of the current infrastructure, but a major re-tooling of our way of thinking.  The way will not be shown by big companies in huge refineries or massive power plants.  It will be shown by little bright guys like OWW with his little biodiesel machine, and oddball old farts like me who are too lazy to do anything but think.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Fla._Deadheader

 I would guess that using the stalks is too much trouble ???

  Corn stalks contain nearly the same amount of sugar as the corn grain, once converted ???

  If Ethanol is ruining all these engines, why is Brazil not having all these problems ???

  Stop the Govt. sugar support pricing, let it float on the open market, and convert some of that along with the Ethanol ???

  I would also guess that, the Govt. has allotted corn acreage, and most farmers jumped on that. Now, if you don't plant corn, you lose the allottment ???

  I KNOW y'all will correct me if I'm wrong ???  ::) ::) ;D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

DanG

Quote from: Fla._Deadheader on July 23, 2009, 01:32:50 PM
  I KNOW y'all will correct me if I'm wrong ???  ::) ::) ;D

Hellsbells Harold.  I'll even correct YOU if you ain't wrong! ;D 8) 8) :D :D
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Fla._Deadheader

All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

DanG

Up there in reply #26, I didn't tie that together as well as I intended.  I meant to insert that it is very easy and very cheap to heat liquids with passive solar. ;)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

sharp edge

The big problem with ethanol is when the refinerys add it to gas, they end up with to much gas. There only so much oil & gas in a barrel of crude. What are they to do with the extra gas? Give it away?

SE
The stroke of a pen is mighter than the stroke of a sword, but we like pictures.
91' escort powered A-14 belsaw, JD 350-c cat with jamer and dray, 12" powermatic planer

Fla._Deadheader

 Then, why $5.00 a gallon, last year ???

  Me thinks Americanos are not paying attention ???

  My first Brides Brother once said, "I don't care if it goes to $5.00 a Gallon. I will still drive". Last year, he sold his 21' boat, because he couldn't afford to use it.  ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D

  I think it's all in the grand scheme of things, to slowly raise prices to where there IS a surplus, and then back off just a tad. Last years episode proved that people will pay, no matter what.

  If I was still living in Florida, I would be in the business of converting cars and light trucks, to all electric. It's NOT that difficult or expensive, if you shop around for parts.  ::) ::)
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

DanG

The problems with ethanol have less to do with cost of production than they do with ripping people off, IMHO.  My understanding is that a bushel of corn weighs 40 pounds, and you have 32 pounds of high-grade cattle feed left after you get the alky out of it.  According to my math, the most loss you can attribute to ethanol is 20%.  However, what I am seeing from the anti-ethanol crowd is that they want to claim the entire cost of production as an expense of making the ethanol.  According to the most liberal math I can conjure up, they shouldn't claim more than 20% of that cost.  Then the feedlot folks don't want to concede that the ethanol people have paid for 20% of the planting and harvesting bill, and they credit themselves for 100% of it.  Now we're being charged for 200% of the production cost.  Then the food people, those who use corn in their products, claim that alcohol production has tripled the cost of their materials, even if corn is just a minor ingredient.  They also want to claim another 100% of the production cost of the ethanol corn, even though it isn't the same corn that they use.  If these people would just deal honestly with their expenses, and use a little common sense in the ethanol production, it could be a profitable business without a Gov't subsidy.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Fla._Deadheader

   8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8

  Someone FINALLY gets it. Good on ya, Dan  8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

  AND, I will correct YOU. There is 56# of shelled corn per bushel.  ;D ;D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

DanG

Huh?  You tell me I'm right, then you correct me?  Where'd you ever get an idea like that? ??? ::)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Fla._Deadheader


   ::) ::)
QuoteHellsbells Harold.  I'll even correct YOU if you ain't wrong!
::) ::)
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Gary_C

Quote from: OneWithWood on July 23, 2009, 10:12:21 AM
No need to apologize glgdiggs.  You speak the truth.

I don't see much truth in those claims. If they considered all the energy it took to make those dead dinosaurs into oil as they consider energy of production for corn I wonder how the numbers would look. And food price increases have more to do with transportation cost increases than raw material increases. That has been proven many times in countless studies. Plus the major food for livestock part of the corn still remains after extracting the ethanol. When was the last time you ate an ear of field corn?

This is just more ethanol and farmer bashing than truth.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Fla._Deadheader


The ONLY ones making money on Ethanol-Corn is the chemical companies. They make the Fertilizer, the weed killer, and, I believe, are major feedlot owners ???

  Over the years, how much has production cost per bushel, increased, compared to price per bushel of corn ???

  Might be interesting if some good sized corn growers could post some figures.  Seems to me, corn has been LOW for as long as I can remember, compared to production costs ???
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

DanG

Good point Harold.  I don't have any exact figures, but it seems to me the corn price was about the same as pre-ethanol prices, even back when fuel was thirty cents and seed was $7 a ton instead of $7 a pound.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Tom

QuoteWhen was the last time you ate an ear of field corn?

This morning.

Even on the cob or cut and frozen in niblets it's good if you break it before it turns to to starch.

It makes good grits, hominy and cornmeal.   :)

DouginUtah

Average Yearly Corn Prices for Selected States vs. Iowa

                 2000 2001 2002  2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

Minnesota   1.75  1.90   2.15  2.35 1.85 1.86 2.89  4.13
IOWA         1.75  1.90   2.25  2.37 1.99 1.94 3.03  4.29

http://www.econ.iastate.edu/outreach/agriculture/periodicals/chartbook/Chartbook2/Tables/Table11B.pdf
-Doug
When you hang around with good people, good things happen. -Darrell Waltrip

There is no need to say 'unleaded regular gas'. It's all unleaded. Just say 'regular gas'. It's not the 70s anymore. (At least that's what my wife tells me.)

---

Fla._Deadheader


Doug, would you happen to know if the prices you posted are at the elevator, or retail, in the feed store ??? Just want to establish the fact.

  As Tom said, Roastin Ears is GOOOOD  Eatin. Stone ground is, also.  ::) ;D ;D ;D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

beenthere

I heard a presentation once (20 years ago) that showed the range in price per bushel of corn back 300 years in this country. It ranged between $1 and like $5. The economy and the value of a dollar changed a lot, but not the price for a bushel of corn.
Cannot find such stats when googled.

And we used to eat the field corn on the cob when its development was "just right". A pretty brief window there, as I recall. Not quite as good as the varieties of sweet corn, but a close second.  :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Fla._Deadheader


That's "Roastin Ears", BT. Add a little sugar to the water, if ya boil the corn, and it's difficult to tell the difference.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

DouginUtah


The listed prices are the prices received by the farmer as reported by the Department of Agriculture.
-Doug
When you hang around with good people, good things happen. -Darrell Waltrip

There is no need to say 'unleaded regular gas'. It's all unleaded. Just say 'regular gas'. It's not the 70s anymore. (At least that's what my wife tells me.)

---

Fla._Deadheader

All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Norm

Corn is $2.86 at the local elevator today. The price of corn flakes, beef and everything else that went to highs last year due to ethanol driving up food prices are still the same as they were. Input costs to grow it have not come  down.

That truth is almost verbatim to what Exxon sends out to keep you firmly attached to their teat.

Geez Gary you rabble rouser, once again you've got me replying to these evil ethanol threads. :D

Gary_C

Quote from: Norm on July 25, 2009, 07:38:44 AM
Geez Gary you rabble rouser, once again you've got me replying to these evil ethanol threads. :D

I'm like you Norm on responding to these threads anymore, but I blame my response on that board moderator endorsing that bit of "the truth about their evil competitor ethanol." 
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

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