Chainsaw questions (facts or myths?)

[Warbird]

Hey guys,

I've searched around here and elsewhere, so apologies ahead of time if some of this stuff has been definitively answered and I just missed it.  I've got lots of questions.  Yes, I've been using chainsaws for many years now but I imagine some of these will make me sound like a newbie.

I've never received 'proper' training with chainsaws.  Back in the mid-80's (I was ~15 years old), my dad lost his job and we lived a couple of years in a cabin with no water or electric and just wood for heat.  That was my introduction to wood cutting.  Needless to say, we froze a lot.  The cabin was holey, drafty, and the roof wasn't insulated well at all.  So we got a quick and ugly introduction to heating with wood and cutting firewood in extreme cold.  Basically, dad borrowed a chainsaw and I was the only kid old enough to help him cut wood.  When we were cutting in the winter and he got froze up, I'd pick up the chainsaw and get to work while he warmed up (nothing like the vibration of a chainsaw numbing your body when you're already freezing!!).

Now that you know my background...  ;D  I figure it's high time I learned what others have to say about chainsawing.  If all of this is answered in some guide somewhere, please direct me to it?  Thanks!

Questions:

Drop starting: good or bad?  Is it really just a matter of opinion?  I've read some people who swear by it and others who think drop starting is a sign of the end times.  I've never used giant chainsaws.  My current one is a Stihl 270c with a 20" bar.  I usually start it by placing it on the ground, setting it to full choke, and cranking it until it stutters.  Then I pick it up, turn off the choke, and drop start it.

"Old" mixed fuel:  myth?  I've recently read that mixed fuel can go bad after ~45 days and that if you are storing your saw for a long period of time (ie. over the winter), you should run it dry before storing it.  What's the real deal here?

Tweaking & tuning:  I've read a couple of posts in these forums that mentioned something about muffler tweaks or other (easy?) things you can do to your saw to get the most out of it.  My 270c is running stock right now.  What are some easy things I can do to get more power out of it?  Are there guides explaining how to get the most out of a saw without breaking it?

Kickback:  How hard can a 270c truly kickback?  I've had saws kickback but never anything like the horror stories I've read about.  Maybe the Good Lord has been watching out for me all these years or maybe I've just instinctually kept the top quadrant of the blade, near the tip, clear.  Still...  I have to wonder what kinds of saws these guys were using that kicked back so bad and if they were simply not paying attention.  What's the skinny?

Thanks a lot for any and all answers/pointers to answers.  You guys have a nice community here.

[Ianab]

Drop starting: good or bad?

It's not 'terribly' dangerous, but there is a remote chance something could go wrong (like you loose your footing) and you end up with the saw bar kissing your leg. If it's on the ground and you have your foot in the rear handle.. then you have to try much harder to hurt yourself   ;)

"Old" mixed fuel:  myth?

Yes.. mixed fuel does go off eventually. How long? Depends on the original fuel type (not all petrol is chemically the same), stabilising additives in the oil, container it's kept in and the temperature. 6 weeks... 6 months... it depends.

Tweaking & tuning:

Most modern saws are designed as a compromise between power and noise/emisions. By building a more restricted muffler they are quieter and burn the fuel more fully - but they have a little less power and run a bit hotter as well. By modifying the muffler back to the older style you can get more power, at the expense of more noise and a bit of unburnt fuel being spat out the exhaust. The carb has to be re-tuned to suit the different exhaust setup as well. So I suggest not doing it unless you know what you are doing, tuning a saw too lean will kill it dead.. and quickly.

Kickback:  How hard can a 270c truly kickback?

Hard enough to kill you if you aren't holding it properly and have your neck in the way 
Although they are only a small saw, the chain is still running at the same speed as a bigger saw, and the saw itself has less inertia to overcome. So even a small saw can kick back dangerously. Watch where the tip of the bar is at all times, hold the saw properly with your thumb wrapped around the top handle, and keep you body out of the kickback path as much as possible . You are right, it's usually operator error, but mistakes happen. Holding the saw correctly will probably control the kickback, the chain brake should come on, and your body parts shouldn't be in the way anyway.

If all of this is answered in some guide somewhere, please direct me to it?  Thanks!

This is a guide book put out by OSH here in NZ. It's a good practical guide to chainsaws and tree felling in general. Very safety orientated, but lots of good info and some fairly advanced cutting techniques.
http://www.osh.govt.nz/order/catalogue/pdf/treefell.pdf

Cheers

Ian

[Warbird]

Thanks Ian!

[jjmk98k]

Welcome to the boards Warbird!, hanging around this forum (and this chainsaw room)  can be very addicting.

I think Ianab did a great job answering your questions... I think drop starting is unsafe and just hard on the machine... I do the "between the knees" way.... or on the ground way...


I spent a few years at Eielson AFB... nice area up there, I loved it.  Have an Alaskan Amber for me while I am here in iraq~!

I miss the food factory in North pole, always happy times there!

[SawTroll]

Drop starting: good or bad?

It's not 'terribly' dangerous, but there is a remote chance something could go wrong (like you loose your footing) and you end up with the saw bar kissing your leg. If it's on the ground and you have your foot in the rear handle.. then you have to try much harder to hurt yourself   ;)

It isn't even remotely dangerous, if you put the chain brake on before starting it (never did earlier, but have started doing it), and it is very efficient and convenient - with long bars, you can rest the tip of the bar on a log, or something else that isn't abrasive or too hard......



You can fall on the bar when you start a saw on the ground, also.

[LeeB]

... I do the "between the knees" way....

I can't get a mental picture of a way to do "between the knees". I can't even imagine having a running chainsaw between my legs

[beenthere]

LeeB
It is one of the two ways taught by the GOL (game of logging). It apparently isn't the way you are picturing in your "mental"   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

I drop start mine.... : :

[Warbird]

Welcome to the boards Warbird!, hanging around this forum (and this chainsaw room)  can be very addicting.

Thanks.  You are right about this place being addicting.  I've been reading once a day since a friend told me about these forums.

I spent a few years at Eielson AFB... nice area up there, I loved it.  Have an Alaskan Amber for me while I am here in iraq~!

I miss the food factory in North pole, always happy times there!

Yeah, Alaska is an *awesome* state, if you can handle the winters.  We are going through a lot of growth right now, being the true 'last frontier' in the US.  I'm hoping we don't get too populated, though.  I can't stand cities and huge crowds of people.

Will do, on the Alaskan Amber.  I don't drink much anymore and hardly ever drink beer, but when I do have beer, it is either an Alaskan Amber or a Guinness.  ;D

Thanks for serving our country.  I was never in the military (couldn't get in 'cause of my scoliosis) but I like to read about past wars, the history of our country, and remember the sacrifices that were made by lots of our guys to give us the freedoms and 'stuff' we enjoy today.  So if you're ever in Alaska again and I'm still here, look me up.  I'll be buyin' the beer. 

[Warbird]

Another question:  Is it true you can pour 'old' mixed fuel into your cars gas tank and it won't hurt the car?

[Ianab]

If you just pour a gallon of old mix into a full tank of gas the oil will be dilute it wont cause any problems. Make sure it's still clean of course, if it's got water or crud in it dont. :

Cheers

Ian

[LeeB]

OK, about this between the knees starting thing, I take it that the saw is on the ground with the operator on his knees holdling the saw to the ground?

[leweee]

 :D Nope Lee ...your standing for this technic  :D :P  Not on your knees Praying it will start. :D Use your knees to pinch the rear handle....hand on the hanlebar at the top & pull the cord with the other hand. That saw on the ground is no fun with a foot or two of snow on the ground. :

[LeeB]

I'll have to take your word for the snow thing. I think I'll stick to drop starting( and pray standing up that it starts  :D :D) I recon if the pull cord catches somehow and you ain't got a good grip with your knees you'll be praying for the ache to go away.

[Ianab]

Just keep your knees together and you will be safe...

Thats good advice for a lot of situations  :P  :D


Cheers

Ian

[asy]

Hiya Warbird!

I'll preface this post by saying "I don't know nuffin", but that's never really stopped me answering a post before...  So here goes...

I had the "drop starting" discussion with two Chainsaw Vendors in the "big town" near our farm, and one said simply "it's not safe" but didn't expand (so I discounted it and moved on to the other one). Michael (who owns "Diamond service Centre in Lismore") told me he knew a guy who was shorter than he started off because he drop started a saw and the pull cord broke. The saw spun around and took both his legs off.

Now, this means he wasn't wearing chaps, but why risk it.

Michael explained that because the saw is effectively 'falling' it's not totally under control and as such, if it takes off, it's much harder to rein in. I know someone said you should always have the chain brake on, but, do you really want to risk your legs to the chain brake working, or, remembering to make sure it's on before you start the saw?

The whole "drop thing" scares me silly. So I don't do it.

With my little baby-saw (the Arborist saw) I start it locked between my knees, as I was shown when I bought it. It's locked in and safe, even if the chain brake did fail and the cord broke, it'd still be locked in. Also, this means I can start it when I've climbed up a tree. It's a good way to know how to start a saw.

asy :D

[Warbird]

Just keep your knees together and you will be safe...

Thats good advice for a lot of situations  :P  :D

:D :D :D

About starting in the snow...  just stomp the snow down or clear a small spot. smiley_bucktooth

Thanks for the, uh, scary info, asy.  Out of all the stuff I've read on drop starting I've learned one thing...  chainsaws are dangerous!  Think I'll invest in a pair of chaps and continue starting saws the way I always have.  Unless it was a *huge* saw, then I'd start it on the ground.

[asy]

Yeah, Warbird, I thought ending up a foot or two shorter than I Started a scary thought too... Besides that, I wouldn't be able to fit all my nice new stilettos onto leg-stumps...  :(

asy :D

[SawTroll]

Another question:  Is it true you can pour 'old' mixed fuel into your cars gas tank and it won't hurt the car?

Sure, but use your head regarding the how much at one time......

..depends a bit on the specs of your car engine vs the fuel in that mix also..... :

[thecfarm]

The GOL always tells you to start your saw with the chain break on.Please get yourself some chaps,Warbird.There are past posts on them.Someone said they could not afford them,someonelse came on and said a pair of chaps cost about the same as a co-pay for an emergecy visit at the hosptial.Good point.Good luck.

[Warbird]

Thanks, cfarm.  I'm already looking into picking up a pair of them.

[RSteiner]

I find that trying to start a saw on the ground is hard on my back and I am more prone to pul the starter cord out of the saw.  However, standing and placing one leg over the rear handle of the saw just above the knee and holding the top handle with a straight left arm I can get a good pull on the starter cord.  And, the length of starter cord I am able to pull out is some what less than what's on the saw.

This was the method taught to me by Soren Ericson.  I use it all the time.  Setting the chain break is also a good pratice.

Randy

[WDH]

One comment about drop-starting.  It is not considered a safe way to start a saw by OSHA (easy now, this in not intended to get everyone all lathered up about OSHA).  Also, people have been hurt by doing it.  When I see it done, I assume the person doing it has not had chainsaw safety training and do not know what they are doing. 

On our contract logging operations, we do not allow it.  They either use the on the ground method or the between the knees method because the saw is stabilized.  With drop starting, the saw is in a more dangerous position.

I am not expert, just worked in the Industry for 28 years.  However, if the training experts say not to do it, there has to be a good reason.

[Dodgy Loner]

I drop-start every time I crank a saw, regardless of how many people say it's not supposed to be done.  I'm not saying I would tell anyone else do it, I just do it because it's easier.  When the chain brake is on, the chain ain't moving until I take the brake off.  I consider the act of releasing the brake, pulling the trigger, and applying the saw to the wood to be many times more dangerous than drop-starting.

For the record:  If my saw didn't have a chain brake, I wouldn't even think about drop-starting it.

[RCrosby]

Ian,
Great link on the cutting techniques.  I'll be getting a new saw soon and it's not a bad time, if there ever is one, to go back to the basics and get real religous about my cutting techniques.
Thanks,
Rob
p.s. to Warbird,
I spent about 20 years in S.E.   Made it up to Fairbanks a few times.  Good to hear from folks in God's Country.
Best,
Rob










t

[thedeeredude]

I do the between the legs method.  And my voice is still normal tone.  My saw has a decomp valve and is easy to start too.  The oldys at work, husky 61s, are a bear to start so they get the brake on and drop start or the proper foot on handle method.  In safety training I learned not to drop start a saw.  I gotta break these bad habits.

[little Bark]

There is two ways to look at safety procedures.  Is it a shall or a should. I work for a mechanical contractor that does work for some that it may take up to 1 hr each day just to complete the equipment check lists ect. For them this is a shall and at a huge cost to us.  Yes we can charge more to work there and we do just to recover lost time due to safety procedures. There is always the iterpeneration of the rule.  Do you change the batteries in your somke dectors every year. Is that a shall or a should. Talk to someone that lost everything in a fire this would be a shall.  The family that never had a fire this is a should.  But we all know what the right answer is. 

[tcsmpsi]

With regard to 'drop starting', it would ultimately depend on the saw

However, with my 'little' saws, I have no problem drop starting, and have run through limitless scenarios determining my actions. 

If my saws were blade heavy, I would use an accomodating technique.

Once, before I thought about what I was doing, I was successful in drop starting this one while it was all hot and lathered up.



I wouldn't (couldn't?) do it again.   :D

However, holding the saw and setting the end down on the dogs I've done quite a bit.



That's .50" chain on it, by the way.

[little Bark]

I THOUGHT I WOULD RESPOND IN ALL CAPS BECAUSE I'M SURE YOU CAN'T HEAR AFTER RUNNING THAT THING. :-\

[Dwayne Ferguson]

I start my 395 between my knees the method is hold saw by the rap around (on the bend) place in between knees with your right knee hooked over the rear handle . But drop starts are all good to but it tends to wear the top of the pull start cover and starts cutting the rope 

[Mike_Barcaskey]

I drop start mine all the time because it is easier on my back. I need to be standing straight up if I'm pulling on that cord.

[tcsmpsi]

I THOUGHT I WOULD RESPOND IN ALL CAPS BECAUSE I'M SURE YOU CAN'T HEAR AFTER RUNNING THAT THING. :-\

Oh, it's not too bad.  You just have to remember to check for dead limbs overhead before you get her to singing.     :D

[beenthere]

............... But drop starts are all good to but it tends to wear the top of the pull start cover and starts cutting the rope 

Doesn't seem to do that with my drop starts.....wonder what I do different  : : :
Drop start seems like less work for me, compared to between the leg starts.  Maybe it is just that I am stubborn somehow..

[Dwayne Ferguson]

yeah or the guys at my work are doing it wrong  all the side cover have worn a grove from the rope pulling out side ways as they drop start . but yeah all the small saw i have owned i all ways drop started them and they didn't wear . the two guys I'm thinking of both get saw arms from 5 min on my saw. so maybe they don't control the saw as much as the saw controls them :D

[WDH]

On you drop-starters tombstone, it will be inscribed:

He was a drop-starter.  May he rest in stubborn peace.

[SawTroll]

I drop-start every time I crank a saw, regardless of how many people say it's not supposed to be done.  I'm not saying I would tell anyone else do it, I just do it because it's easier.  When the chain brake is on, the chain ain't moving until I take the brake off.  I consider the act of releasing the brake, pulling the trigger, and applying the saw to the wood to be many times more dangerous than drop-starting.

For the record:  If my saw didn't have a chain brake, I wouldn't even think about drop-starting it.

I "dropstart" all the time, and have just recently started using the chain brake - but I wouldn't do it on an unknown large saw without a brake....... :-\

[tcsmpsi]

I have generally led a, more or less, secluded life with regard to tree cutting and what have you, which basically started back yonder with a bunch of pulpwooders.  Not that I was ever really anxious for that particular life, but it provided some good, general knowledge and paid a bill or two.

I've never gone to any 'classes' on the matter and have only experience as a general 'rule book' on the use of chainsaws and their relevant procedures.

So, I'm certain I have missed a great deal of 'finer points' of chainsaw etiquette.  As such, it would be reasonble for myself to be considered stupid in the matter.

Thusly, taking that as a given (my being stupid in the matter, that is), I do not know what the inherent danger of 'drop-starting' a chainsaw is.

I can understand if a saw is too big/heavy for a person to hold with one hand, and I understand that most of today's saws initially start with a  more open throttle than normal idle.

Now, I didn't even know the term "drop start" until I came to the forum.  To me, it has always been just "starting". 

What is supposed to be the danger of "drop starting"?

[sawguy21]

The real danger is having the bar and chain slam into the leg while running. The saw is difficult to control with one hand. I know, I have done it. I did not hit flesh but it was far too close for comfort.

[beenthere]

tcsmpsi
I'm with you, pretty much, with this subject. 

Don't mind others doing it their way.

[tcsmpsi]

Well, I notice some pretty strong feelings on the matter, and I am trying to get a grasp of the reasoning in case I have missed something, or am misssing something.

I understand that there is always a danger of getting cut when operating any cutting tool.   That is what they do.  Cut.

Again, I mostly only have my own experience as a guideline, but, I have tried starting 'on the ground' and I feel very awkward when doing so.  I don't feel like I have good enough control of the saw that way, and there's something about being bent over an open, running saw that gives me trepidation.

Looking at it and thinking about it, I know I got my ingrained foundation of "drop starting" when working for Blume Systems (a large tree trimming contractor).   I don't know how else we would have started those old yellow saws while hanging around in the trees.  Though I don't remember anyone ever asking, I feel pretty certain it would have been 'frowned upon' to start them on the ground, and climb with a running saw.  Even though that was a very long time ago.   Besides, those things would seldom idle, anyhow.    :D

I'm certain that some folks a lot smarter than I am have studied (OSHA, etc) and come to regulatory principle on the matter by a learned process. 

[beenthere]

.........................I'm certain that some folks a lot smarter than I am have studied (OSHA, etc) and come to regulatory principle on the matter by a learned process. 

I wouldn't count on that one DanG minute.... 8) : :
;D

[little Bark]

I do know that I could live high on the hog for several years if I had all the money that they spent on safety training.  Has it made me / us any safer I think not.  They do it because that is what our customers demand.  Being safe is a personal decision.

Here is my take on safety and belive me it is a dying art in this contry.  USE COMMON SENSE it will always keep you alive as long as the guy next to you is using his God given gift also.

[Dan_Shade]

safety processes have made a difference in our country.

we all see the funny pictures of guys doing "humorous" things in other countries, it's not like that here due to OSHA and other safety minded requirements.

I have spent a lot of money on safety items.  safety is cheap compared to an injury.

of course I don't agree with all safety things, and I think at the end of the day, if a worker has a for real valid reason to not do a "safe" thing, they he should get his way.

[SawTroll]

Well, I notice some pretty strong feelings on the matter, and I am trying to get a grasp of the reasoning in case I have missed something, or am misssing something.

I understand that there is always a danger of getting cut when operating any cutting tool.   That is what they do.  Cut.

Again, I mostly only have my own experience as a guideline, but, I have tried starting 'on the ground' and I feel very awkward when doing so.  I don't feel like I have good enough control of the saw that way, and there's something about being bent over an open, running saw that gives me trepidation.

Looking at it and thinking about it, I know I got my ingrained foundation of "drop starting" when working for Blume Systems (a large tree trimming contractor).   I don't know how else we would have started those old yellow saws while hanging around in the trees.  Though I don't remember anyone ever asking, I feel pretty certain it would have been 'frowned upon' to start them on the ground, and climb with a running saw.  Even though that was a very long time ago.   Besides, those things would seldom idle, anyhow.    :D

I'm certain that some folks a lot smarter than I am have studied (OSHA, etc) and come to regulatory principle on the matter by a learned process. 

You got it all right, as far as I am conserned....... 8) 8)

[arojay]

It's easy to think that regulators and safety researchers develop the 'rules' through experience, intensive research and trial.  I've met a few of these folks, and I have to say, nothing could be further from the truth!  The approach is academic and bureaucratic.  The WCB/OH&S board here spent a half a million last year on a campaign to tell us that "common sense can't save your life".  Injured worker rate went up after that.  This in a population of only 30,000 souls.  Now they are instituting courses that will be essentially mandatory or you will be harrassed, to teach us all how to work safely.  Do you think that these courses will be developed by long time industry survivors?  Not a chance.  The board recently developed a system of charting the injury claim rate by industry and even by business.  I told them that they should enlist the experience of those businesses who have the lowest injury rate in each sector and let them develop courses and regulations.  They have'nt gotten back to me.

[rebocardo]

> they should enlist the experience of those businesses who have the lowest injury rate

That sounds like good common sense to me, so they probably will not get back to you  :D

[John Mc]

Here is my take on safety and belive me it is a dying art in this contry.  USE COMMON SENSE it will always keep you alive as long as the guy next to you is using his God given gift also.

The problem is, common sense ain't all that common these days...

[SwingOak]

Here is my take on safety and belive me it is a dying art in this contry.  USE COMMON SENSE it will always keep you alive as long as the guy next to you is using his God given gift also.

The problem is, common sense ain't all that common these days...

It probably ought to be called "rare sense" 'cause so few people actually seem to have it...

[Danny Dimm]

I've spent close to 30 years in the woods, a large portion of that hanging on to 90cc or bigger saws. And I'm not a very big guy. I can't remember seeing anyone use anything but a drop start on a regular basis. No chain break either. Use your common sense and your whole body. I am constantly almost subconsciencely aware of where the powerhead is. I get real nervous if I feel my legs even to or ahead of the handle bars. As for kickback, I hate short bars. You have to be closer to the work and the kickbacks are more violent. 26' is as short as I like. I usually run 28'. Raker height has a lot to do with it as well. But that's a trade off too. To high the saw wont bite. When I was young and bucking full time the first thing I'd do to a new chain was take the rakers half off. [075 stihl] It could grab limb a foot and a half long by two or three inches wide and fire it thirty feet behind you. You only got your shins in the way once. Had to be real aware of where the tip was and you have to do most of your work with the tip. If your not real experinced, use a raker gauge. I pretty much always use one when I'm falling.

[Larry]

When I took GOL training in 99 Soren Erickson told our class how the between the knees start began.  OSHA had just started writing the safety rules for logging.  They invited expert input from the Forest Products Industry.  Soren was one of the team members.  Both sides agreed the drop start was extremely dangerous...all they had to do was look at accident reports.  OSHA was adamant that the only safe way to start a saw was on the ground.  The FPI team looked at the ground start as a rule that loggers would never accept.  Eventually they came up with the between the knees start as a compromise.

Soren Erickson is the best cutter I have ever seen and also one of the smarter men I have met.  If he says to start between the knees that's what I'm gonna do.  I like to avoid the sight of blood...especially my blood.