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Calculate the bdf from the logs or lumber??

Started by Snag, July 31, 2007, 09:21:51 AM

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Snag

Been awhile but things have been crazy.  I am getting more into sawing as a business and had a question for those with more experience than me.  When you go to saw for a customer and charge by the bdf, do you calculate the bdf by scaling the logs prior to cutting or calculate it from the finished product? 

Also I have been charging $50/hr or $0.30/bdf of finished product, whichever one works out to be cheaper for the customer.  I am considering changing that line of thinking and would like some opinions and input.  What are the times when you personally charge by the hour and when by the bdf?  I know the obvious ones, like when you have to saw tons of small diameter logs that produce very small bdf compared to the effort put in.

Thanks.

brdmkr

Snag,

The little bit of custom sawing I have done has been by the finished bdft.  However, I think there may be some merit to scaling the logs and bidding on the entire job.  Some people just want to know what the job will cost them before they get started.
Lucas 618  Mahindra 4110, FEL and pallet forks, some cant hooks, and a dose of want-to

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

When anything about the situation looks "off," I at least consider charging by the hour.
If you go by "whatever works out cheaper for the customer," guess what,  you will
always get the brunt of an unfair work situation.

"Off" can be related to the size and quality of the logs, or the difficulty of the overall
situation.  For example,  when the logs are not well staged, and yet you hear...,
"We should be around to help gather these logs;" or "We hope to have them all up
here by then."   If you reply with a swap to hourly charges, the customer may get
their act more together before your contract date.

Of course, the only fair way, when going with charges by board feet, seems to be the end
result - the finished lumber.  I am just saying that sometimes its not fair to the sawyer
to saw that way.  I lernt that at the School of Hard Knocks, as most of us do.

Phil L.      P.S.   Even when cutting by the resultant bd.ft., it is still common to need to come
                        up with a cutting estimate.   I always give a $ range, with the top being more
                        than I anticipate being the top.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Dan_Shade

I've started keeping track of the boards as I cut them.

I keep a clipboard and record log diameter and length, then keep track of the widths and thicknesses of the boards as I go.  I calculate to the lower whole inch on width (8 3/4" wide would be 8" wide).

I keep track of this on a per log basis.  it's working out pretty well for me, but I'm realizing that I can't quite hit the international scale numbers, but I like to saw my boards at 1 3/16" instead of 1 1/8" just to make sure that the lumber owner gets a full 3/4" of usable lumber from a 4/4 board.

I give estimates based on international scale, and charge by board foot sawn, but most of the jobs I've done have been approximately where my minimum charge falls.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Captain

I saw on log scale, international board foot.  I don't deduct for sweep or log degrade.  In the obvious situations, customers pay hourly.

Captain

sawman

  When we custom saw we calculate off the finished product.
'14 LT40 Hydraulic 26 HP koehler ,massey ferguson 2200 forklift, Case IH D40
Wallenstein FX85

SCSawyer

I always give the estimate of the international scale and then charge by the bf but 30 cent seems cheap unless your mill is cheaper to run than mine but I charge 45cent .
Silas S. Roberts , Bluff Mtn. Timber

Snag

As far as the .30/bdf, I just kinda picked that amount to charge from what others are charging.  I didnt really know what to charge.  The couple jobs I have done, the $50/hr has ended up being the cheaper deal for the customer.  Thats why I feel I should do away with it unless it is the obvious situation.  I could be making more money.  I am just one of those people that feel bad about telling the customer the total when it was a job where I pounded out a ton of bdf.  I know, I know..... I need to get over that real quick.  .45/bdf is high for this area.  Maybe tyhe .30 I have been charging should go by the wayside as the price of gas and such increases.  What are others getting by the bdf right now?  How about you Captain? You arent too far away from where i'm at and running the same mill (except you added the big 30hp).  Have you adjusted you're rates?  Last I knew I believe you were charging about the same amount.  BTW- have had great success with the retipping jig.  Have only had 1 tip go flying off.

Dan_Shade

figure out your expenses and go from there.

here are some overhead type costs, some easier to put a number on than others:

gasoline costs
blade/band sharpening & maintenance
depreciated saw value (machinery has a finite life and wears out, how many bf will your saw cut before being worn out)
labor
saw maintenance away from job
labor
vehicle cost to get to job
equipment (cant hooks, etc)
etc, there may be more or less of them

figuring out what it actually costs you to saw is an integral key to figuring out if you are a business, or a hobby :).
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Captain

SUMMER 07 RATES
Softwood 2x and larger .32/BF
Softwood smaller than 2x .36/BF
Flatsawn Hardwood .42/BF
Qsawn Hardwood .47/BF

Remember all, I live just south of Boston!  Yours will vary!

I charge by the hour similar to what local independent mechanics charge for shop labor.  That seems to be a pretty good guideline nationally.  We're at $75/hr for myself and the sawmill.

Captain

Tom Sawyer

$85/hour.  Never by the foot.  I find this to be much simpler, and it gives the customer lots of opportunity to make the job cheaper.  I try to give an estimate of how long it will take and I am usually pretty close, unless something unforeseen comes up, like a bunch of metal in a log.  I also warn customers beforehand about the consequences of such metal ;D

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Hey, Snag!

Don't know if you are noticing, but I am noticing...

that my geographical area is getting by cheap - both hourly and on the board ft. pricing.


I decided recently to go up on my board ft. rate - autonomously, partly due to
the work involved, costs involved and having a son in college.  Custom Sawyer was a very serious
local full time portable sawyer.  He is now an even more productive fixed-location subcontract sawyer.
Everyone else around is a dabbler or hobbiest.   I have taken the route of making my sawing a serious
portion of my bi-vocation.   In other words,  it pays and must pay decently, in spite of the fact that
I do have other, better-paying work.  ( That other work allows my 52-year-old bones to recuperate from
days like today.  Today I bucked 24' to 32" Sweetgum until 12:00 to get 13 logs for tomorrow's
sawing, then went and moved a 9 ft. concert grand piano.)
,
Another serious sawmiller, 30 miles away, has branched into drying, planing, and molding, and, therefore,
is doing more sawing at his site.  He has green chain set up, edger, etc. etc.  (Gotta go see it.)  This
probably means that I am free to creep up my pricing, IF I DO CUSTOMERS RIGHT.  Certainly, I should
find that I have more small jobs, since such sawyers as this would be less willing to do the smaller jobs
and interrupt the flow the fixed, more efficient situation.

To wrap this up.   I feel justified that I am increasing my pricing a bit.

Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Snag

I think after reading what everyone is saying and working some numbers, I need to bring up my price some to make it more worthwhile.  If I am going to take this on as seriously as I want to, I have to make it worth the effort.  I will just have to get used to the fact that some people may make comments about the prices being high.  I am confident that they will change their mind when they see the finished product.  I have gotten to the point where I am not going to feel guilty about charging what I need to in order to turn a fair profit.  I would rather sit by the pool with the kids than practically give away my services.  Thanks for all the advice.  I'm all ears, keep it comin'.

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