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Shovel logging

Started by Frickman, July 29, 2007, 09:24:35 PM

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Frickman

I read in industry magazines about you guys out west that do shovel logging. From what I've seen you put a grapple on an excavator. Now what? Do you go into the felled timber and use the grapple to "shovel" the logs toward the landing? The way I figured it, you keep working across the hill, moving the logs as far as the boom will reach, eventually placing them on the landing. No skidder or dozer involved. Is this how it works, or am I way off?
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

Reddog

That is exactly how it works. Used it in Alaska also. Works well in clear cuts.

WDH

It is also done on very wet ground.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Mr Mom

I still dont understand how that works.
Is there like a line of excavator and you pass the logs from one too the other??
Not the smart one here.


Thanks Alot Mr Mom

WDH

The shovel loader grabs the logs and swings them 180 degrees to the other side of the loader.  When all the logs in the pile are moved to the other side, the loader repositions and repeats the process until the logs are road-side.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Reddog

It works best were you can cut in a good number of spur roads.  Or work a plantation to a road. Then you set on the edge of the road loading out trucks. I would not see it working well in a cut to length operation.

Dave Shepard

I'd think you would want short runs. By the time I got to know each log on a first name basis, I'd be pretty well bored with that job. :) Make sense if it is wet though.


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Reddog

And dizzy, Once you get in a groove. The house does not stop spinning for long. Plus no one will get close to you swinging 80' tree length logs in a circle. The grapples we had would pick up a skidder tire sized bungle of logs.
Sometimes we would pick up a whole grapple load and walk side ways to the landing as we got closer to it.

But you are right, I enjoyed running the skidder more.

Ianab

Often used here in NZ, especially for smaller plantations of pine on farms. They are often on marginal ground already. If you bring in an excavator you can do the whole job with the one machine. Make tracks / culverts, move the logs and load them onto the truck. Maybe not the most efficient machine, but it's the most versatile, and bringing in one machine to a small job is more cost effective than three.

Cheers

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Tillaway

Its the preferred method for ground logging in the coastal NW.  A shovel logger has a different undercarriage than an excavator or loader, its typically higher (around 30 inches) for ground clearance over stumps and wider between tracks.  They usually run double grousers on the tracks as opposed to triple in the loaders.  They also are generally bigger with longer reach and large grapples.  Shovel logging is usually more productive than skidders, up to about 600' distance, and can be used in some thinnings.  You got the technique right about how its done but the trees are usually not picked up with the heel rack but just shuttled or thrown toward the landing.  You give them a good fling and they can slide a long ways down a hill, particularly if you has piled logs to act like a chute.  No cut to length everything is usually whole tree to the road side where a processor manufactures the logs.  One machine yards and loads, its the least expensive and ironically the most profitable part of a logging job out here.   
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

Ron Wenrich

When did this system come about?  I never heard of it when I was out there back in the early '70s working as a choker setter.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Frickman

Thanks for the info guys. Now I know what they're talking about.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

Tillaway

Ron,
It was being used in the early to mid eighties around here, with the advent of joy stick controls it really took off.  The early 70's the old cable grapple loaders were predominate.  The production numbers with this technique are impressive if a feller buncher is used and an added benefit is that the same machine can do site prep, slash piling, while moving logs to the road.  If you really wanted a one machine operation you could plumb the shovel for a dangle head and do the felling, yarding, processing and loading with one machine, although I know of only one guy that does this.
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

Ron Scott

They make conversion kits with quick connectors for excavators to easily transform them into a forestry machine. A harvesting head can be quickly attached and later swapped for a grapple or bucket.

Here, I've usually seen the excavator fitted with a harvesting head, but teamed up with a forwarder to move the wood to the landing/decking area.

~Ron

Pilot

Tillaway described shovel logging pretty well, but in our area, the Cascade Mountains and Willamette Valley,  has been slightly different.  Without a feller buncher, the falling and bucking is pretty much the same as for cat logging.  I have not seen it done whole tree, although I see no reason it couldn't be.  Would have a tremendous amount of slash at the landing, however. The machine operates on top of the slash, slings the logs as described, then piles the slash, or may pile the slash later.  Either way, the machine operates mostly on top of the slash, which really protects the soil.  We have measured compaction increases of less than 2% from winter operations when we had 3 or 4 inches of rain.  With a cat, we wouldn't log when it was too wet (more down time) and compaction might cover 15% or more of the area.  40% max slope is the most I have seen.  We call it loader logging, but it is the same as shovel logging.  I had one job where the  logger thinned an old Christmas tree farm that had not been managed after planting.  Did very little damage to the crop trees.  When I have had skidder & cat loggers bid against loader loggers, the loader loggers always had the lower bids.  Cheaper cost, better protect the site--loader logging is an all around winner!

Ron Wenrich

Have they done it in any of the hardwood stands?  Doesn't it bust up any of the trees by tossing them?  Somebody needs to get a video.  smiley_idea
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Mr Mom

Do they do this on flat ground or just on hills??
I would think that it would be a slower way to move logs.
But if you could get them to really roll down then you would end up with busted trees.

Thanks Alot Mr Mom

Reddog

All we ever did it in was clear cuts or strip cuts. For selective cuts it was Skidders or forwarders. Hilly or flat did not matter.

WDH

In the western US, it is done when the ground is too steep for skidding with a conventional skidder, but not too steep for the tracked loader.  Based on productivity, the shovel system costs much less than a cable-yarder logging system.  Economics is what drives it.  So, on steep ground that rules out a conventional rubber-tired skidder, the options are a cable-yarder system or the shovel loaders.   Because of the cost to operate, the shovels are preferred where they are operable.

In the Southern US, they are used where it is too wet to conventionally skid.  The shovels move the wood from the wettest ground to drier ground either to a landing for loading or to ground that the skidders can operate from.

I will try to post some pics of both systems.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Tillaway

I have 2 operations shovel logging hardwoods right now.  Alder splits and breaks easily so they take a little more care with them.  The techniques the loggers use shovel logging vary by ground type and distance to landings.  I have another operation using a dangle head manufacturing in the woods and a 527 track skidder with swing grapple.  Pretty conventional stuff, they are using the 527 instead of shovel because the ground does not lend itself to shovel logging since the are only a couple of skid trails that access a series of benches.  Its too steep to wander around on the hillside with a shovel here and poor deflection and access to cable yard.

I have about 12 cable yarders of various types working now as well.  It will get busier toward the end of September. ::)
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

Furby

Any chance we can get some pics and video from you Tillaway ???

arojay

Check out VanNatta Forestry and Logging.  Very entertaining and some good explanation of West Coast logging.
440B skidder, JD350 dozer, Husqvarnas from 335 to 394. All spruced up

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Tillaway on July 30, 2007, 11:49:34 PM
You got the technique right about how its done but the trees are usually not picked up with the heel rack but just shuttled or thrown toward the landing.  You give them a good fling and they can slide a long ways down a hill, particularly if you has piled logs to act like a chute.  No cut to length everything is usually whole tree to the road side where a processor manufactures the logs.  One machine yards and loads, its the least expensive and ironically the most profitable part of a logging job out here.   

Yip! We call it 'Hoe-Chucking'. It was introduced in the late 80's in BC.

http://srmwww.gov.bc.ca/rmd/srdb/docs/BB-SBFEP.pdf

"There are four basic types of timber harvesting systems utilized in coastal BC (1) helicopter
logging, (2) cable logging or grapple yarding, (3) feller/buncher, and (4) hoe-chucking or
fowarding.

A.J. MacDonald of FERIC writes that it
"...is the most economical method of harvesting for gentle terrain in coastal conditions; for
many operations, it has replaced the grapple yarder (cable system) as the preferred
harvesting system. The labour costs are low because only one worker is required."

Anyone got a FERIC account? ;D MacDonald, A.J. 1999. Harvesting Systems and Equipment in British Columbia. Forest Engineering Research Institute of Canada, FERIC Handbook No. HB-12.

The maximum side-slope for effective use of a hoe-chucker is 25 to 35%. It is also a very
effective harvesting method to be used in conjunction with a grapple yarder and/or other
ground skidding methods. Hoe-chuckers can efficiently move log bunches felled by fellerbunches.
This system is probably employed in 40 to 60 % of Small Business Forest Enterprise Program (SBFEP) timber harvesting"


We usually laid out a section of a block that could not be reached by grapple yarder where we couldn't put a spur road into because of the sensitive ground. Typically those less productive sites with a heavy yellow cypress component with smaller cedar and spruce, sometimes very slow growth lodgepole pine was mixed in there to. The axe would just bounce off that stuff.  ;D

Hoe-Forwarding study
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Tillaway

Video would be ... boring kinda like watching paint dry.  However I was hoping to get a picture of a little low bed mishap that happened about a week ago.  A low bed was moving a D8 Cat to be used for a tailhold when the edge of the road gave way.  A small alder tree caught the trailer at the rear wheels and the D8 fell off the trailer and rolled over on its top.  The only thing holding the D8 was a chain still attached to the trailer that kept it from tumbling about 1/2 mile into the bottom of the canyon.  Anyway everything turned out alright in the end.  I saw the pictures on one of the guys camera phones.  Funny thing was they told me they were going to walk the Cat in.  Seems like they changed their minds.  I bet they wished they had.
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

arojay

Be wary of buying a hoe that has been used for hoe chucking or shovel logging.  Tough on carbody and undercarriage.  I've seen a few that had more weld than original steel.
440B skidder, JD350 dozer, Husqvarnas from 335 to 394. All spruced up

Scott

Hey Tillaway, I think you still owe me some 527 pictures, buddy  :D :)
Check out Forestpro.com, theres some shovel logging videos on there.
But, like someone else mentioned its not very exciting.

Tillaway

I owe allot of pictures but the last couple of months my job has changed a bit... more supervisory.  I made it out of the office only 1 1/2 days last month. :'(  I've been out twice this month though so far.
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

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