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GW's pond site tree Water Tupelo?

Started by GW, July 24, 2007, 04:58:52 PM

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GW

I've been told by at least 5 people that these trees aren't Water Tupelo. The main reason I still believe they are WT is because in a normal weather pattern many of them would be flooded approximately 80% of the time. They might only be in a few inches of water, but flooded still. The one in these photos sits directly in the drain that feeds the pond site. I've also just spent almost an hour comparing my photos to those I could find on the internet and the leaves look exactly like WT to me.







These are from what I think is a sucker from the same tree:








Texas Ranger

Yep, what it looks like to me, as well.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

Tom

GW, if you find that it really is, and the Foresters are saying so, hang onto the butts of them when they are taken down.  The wood is supposed to be soft, plain grained and prized by carvers.  The ones that carve duck decoys are especially the ones who look for it.

SwampDonkey

Looks like sourwood to me chum Oxydendrum arboreum  ;) The fruit isn't Tupelo and the leaf stalks are too short. Tupelo leaves are non serrated for the most part, but occasionally some serration. Flowers of tupelo, and thus the fruit are born in axils of the leaves, not on the tip of a branch. Those fruits there will become a capsule which splits in 5 parts when ripe.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

SD,  sourwood does not naturally range that far south. 

I believe that it is definately tupelo.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Texas Ranger

The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

GW

Here's a few more pics. The first photo is the same tree from my first post. You can see the banks of the creek clearly in that one. The second photo is a smaller tree 25 or 30 feet downstream, also in the creek. It goes straight up like that for more than 30 feet.




Texas Ranger

Butt swell, yup, tupelo, or sour gum.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

WDH

Most definately a much photographed chapeau at the base of a tupelo ;D

Chapeau......tupelo...get it ???.  It is getting late and I am getty Dodgy ::).
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

Don't look right to me. Tupelo fruit looks like olives on individual peduncles, not on a long racemes. Time will tell when them capsules bust open.  ;D

You bunch of cherry pickers!!

Relax, that's in relation to the peduncles of sweet cherries we get in the store.  ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

GW

I'm wondering if the little tree is really a sucker or maybe a different tree all together. One thing I can do is eat one of the leaves and see if it's sour. If I never post here again try looking for a species that's poisonous.  :o I'm also going to dig around on the ground and see if I can find some of last years fruit.

1/4 mile away from this tree is a stand of similar looking trees that is always flooded. And by "always", I mean it's not flooded now but that's only because of the worst drought in over 50 years. I'm new to this area but my neighbor has been here for 85 years and that swamp land is his. I'll go over there today and take some pictures of those trees.

I appreciate the help everybody, please keep in mind that I WANT these to be Water Tupelo...

Texas Ranger

The "fruit" appears to be just out of the flower stage, there could be the difference, Swamp.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

SwampDonkey

No, a peduncle doesn't turn to a raceme or ament or visa versa. You've seen green cherry fruit. ;) That fruiting structure even reminds me of aspen, which also has seed in capsules. But the leaves are not aspen. It would be uncharacteristic of a mature tree to have fruit way down low in the understory, especially if it's shade intolerant.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

GW

SwampDonkey, doesn't your observation about fruit being in the understory support the idea that this small plant isn't the same as the larger tree? I'll try to get a better look, but I haven't seen fruit on any higher branches.

SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dodgy Loner

You've definitely got yourself a tupelo, GW.  The reason you've been told it's not water tupelo is because it's not.  Water tupelo (Nyssa aquatic) has long petioles and large leaves (usually 4-6").  What you've got is swamp tupelo (Nyssa sylvatica var. biflora), which has the short petioles and smaller leaves that are present in your photo.  Water tupelo is almost exlusively a river bottom tree, while swamp tupelo likes smaller creek bottoms, pond edges, and moist depression.

The second plant in your photo is a Virginia-willow (Itea virginica), hence the confusion over the fruit.  Notice the serrated margins of the leaves - tupelos have smooth margins.  Virginia-willow is an understory shrub that frequents wet areas and rarely gets more than a few feet tall.

Nice photography, by the way!  Those are the best plant photos I've ever seen in this forum.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

SwampDonkey

Ah willow, 'splains the capsules for me now. Although, I've never seen ovate willow leaves before.

Apparently, swamp Tupelo is another variety of black Tupelo, with narrower leaves. I don't have very extensive info on it. Seems to be mentioned when talking about black tupelo. Bark looks similar to black though.

Was wondering when Duck Dodger was going to pipe in. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

SD, oh yea of little faith ;D :D.

There are several black gums/tupelos.  Black gum, swamp gum or swamp tupelo, water tupelo, and ogeechee gum.  All very similiar and closely related.  Sometimes the difference between them is botanically minor.  Most botanists are splitters rather than lumpers ::).  I am more of a lumper than a splitter for practical reasons................
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

Quote from: WDH on July 25, 2007, 04:03:08 PM
SD, oh yea of little faith ;D :D.

Especially, when someone tries to pass off willow capsules for Tupelo drupes.  ;D :D 8)


Do we need another bark discussion?  ;)

Need a smiley_beatnik break and i don't even smoke.  :D :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

Hey, that bark is prototypical tupelo ;D. 

Don't you know that Elvis was from Tupelo ???.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

GW

I'm most concerned with whether or not these trees will survive extended flooding. 

(OK now is where you tell me that, yes, these trees will survive and create a beautiful swamp habitat for fish, birds, reptiles, amphibians and mosquitoes.) ;D

Thang ya, thang ya veri much.

SwampDonkey

Quote from: WDH on July 25, 2007, 04:11:49 PM
Don't you know that Elvis was from Tupelo ???.

No I didn't. I guess I'm not a fan. My mother was though in the day, but I doubt she even knows it.  ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dodgy Loner

Virginia-willow, which is also known as Virginia sweetspire, is not a true willow and not even closely related to the willows.  It belongs to the family Grossulariaceae.  Not sure how it got its common name, but I suspect it has something to do with the similarity of the fruits to willow capsules.

Swamp tupelos can grow in several feet of standing water, but suddenly submerging a mature tree's roots in water might kill it.  Only time will tell...
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Dodgy Loner on July 25, 2007, 07:18:20 PM
Virginia-willow, which is also known as Virginia sweetspire, is not a true willow and not even closely related to the willows.  It belongs to the family Grossulariaceae.  Not sure how it got its common name, but I suspect it has something to do with the similarity of the fruits to willow capsules.

That's my suspicion to.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

Unless it is continuous extended flooding several feet deep, the tupelo should be OK.  If is is perpetual flooding...(well, the roots need some aeration), they might not make it.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

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