Working with trees services, and working and working...

Daren · July 23, 2007, 09:25:43 PM

I have spent the last 4 (?) years trying to work with some local tree services. I am not a straight log kinda guy for the most part, bumpy and funky are my thing. I have found a feller who at least listens a little. Most cut down the kind of tree that I drool over and think "Man this is ugly, nobody (sawmills/pallet companies, even firewood guys cause the curly/burls/crotch won't split easy) would want this" and off to the burnpile it goes.
Around here tree services are a get in/get out, work hard and make your money felling and disposing of a tree. They are so far behind they don't have the time to look (most of them) at further processing other than firewood ($150 cord). I have said before I get free logs because the tree services have no interest in even selling the logs, they are just trash and a burden unless they do sell firewood themselves. I would loose sleep if I thought about all the curly hardwoods, burls, veneer logs that have been a waste product of their business.
One tree service owner I "work" with is 3rd generation, and he knows trees. He is better at species ID than anyone I personally know (myself included, I still sometimes have to ask), but the anomalies don't interest him. He was by one day and I showed him a big maple burl I had just picked up and his response was "Are those worth something?" I told him that depending on species/size/quality they are worth $1-$20 lb, but most all are worth more that firewood. He said "Funny, I bet I have burned 10 tons of them"...he is only 40 :'(. That was 2 years ago and I have yet to see a burl from him ? And unlike my previous posts about "free trees" and not paying for a log, I make it clear the funky/bumpy have value to me beyond gas money. Bring them by, or call me for pickup and we can talk more seriously.
Ok, that was a long windup for the pictures of a redbud burl log the new dude I am working with brought by today. I am going to sound like a total tightwad here, but the price we agreed on was $20 for gas/time (he was 7 miles away) and if I made any $ on it I will do the right thing. Those were his terms, he was willing to leave without the gas money...he was going to haul it to burn if I had not spent time in the past schooling him on such logs that may be worth something . He has an eye (?) and knows what goes into sawmilling/drying/marketing from hanging with me. I know how hard he has to work too, heck I would not do it. I hope maybe we can work together?

Tom · July 23, 2007, 09:51:15 PM

Some of'em make you wonder where to start, don't they?

Daren · July 23, 2007, 10:28:47 PM

Tom, smiley_clapping, you know a staged photo when you see it. I am still scratching my head, that is the road I chose. Anyone with a mill can saw a straight log, boring. I am looking at the big end, a curly 3 way crotch with burls. Not in the photo is another 10' of redbud log (on a 45 from the butt) with more small burls, piece of cake. The curly/crotch/burl has me thinking, there is some center rot, but I have sawed redbud burl before and past the burls the lumber is not anything special.

metalspinner · July 24, 2007, 08:29:09 AM

That's a beauty, Daren.

If you had an end use for it, it would be easier to decide how to cut it. Will this be for your personal stash? I wonder how deap the burl figure goes into the log. ???

Daren · July 24, 2007, 10:26:12 AM

Quote from: metalspinner on July 24, 2007, 08:29:09 AM
I wonder how deap the burl figure goes into the log. ???

Just a little more than the height of the burl, the wood is cool, but not figured. I bucked 3" off the little end just to see if the log was still even sound and it had a baby burl on the piece I cut off. The log is still pretty sound and the baby burl looks fresh.

On the other side of the log someone cut a limb off a long time ago that had a burl growing under it. I hit it with the belt sander to knock off the scab.

It has already laid all summer >:(, the guy was thoughtful to bring it by just not too prompt. I figure it can lay a few more days while I stew on how to cut it. If the butt log did not have rot in the center I would get a couple live edge slabs smack out of the middle and process some of the bigger burls separate.
I can't get my arms around it at the crotch, it's just burl on top of burl.

Dodgy Loner · July 24, 2007, 12:24:42 PM

That looks like a special log, Daren. I hope more photos are forthcoming when you figure out how you're going to saw it

.

Daren · July 24, 2007, 03:15:40 PM

I found a place and the right angle where I could slice under a couple burls without damaging any other nice ones.

As I suspected the wood is nothing terribly special, it is kinda cool, but not worth killing the big burls for trying to saw for the wood.

This the the same piece above sliced off 5/4 and flipped over. You can see it gets plain in a hurry after you get below the burls.

I guess I will cut the burls off and not worry about the wood (I can get twisty old redbuds all the time to saw on if I wanted lumber). Try to get the most material from the burls and still saw what is left of the log. Even live edge pieces with the burls on the side would not be that impressive no deeper than they go.

Kind of a bummer, but there will still be some decent burl chunks to play with. And they are pretty with their bright color too. The fresh ones will be nice, there a couple dead ones that have dried on the tree that I don't think will amount to much.

I see some bright yellow burl pen/fishing lure/reel seat blanks in my future from the smaller ones ;D And maybe some thin slices from the bigger ones for clock faces/jewelry boxes...I may even turn one on the lathe.

Daren · July 24, 2007, 03:51:47 PM

Quote from: Daren on July 24, 2007, 03:15:40 PM

I see some bright yellow burl pen/fishing lure/reel seat blanks in my future from the smaller ones ;D

Very near future...

Kevin · July 24, 2007, 09:21:38 PM

That looks nice!

Daren · July 25, 2007, 12:50:40 PM

Turns out I was sawing the wrong side of the log ;D. I reckon more pictures will go in the "unique log thread" in the sawmill discussion board. https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=26051.40

Dodgy Loner · July 25, 2007, 03:18:12 PM

Great pics, that sure is some georgeous wood! I never redbud so such a bright yellow when freshly sawn. I have some samples that were cut about 30 years ago that are as dark brown as walnut.

Daren · July 25, 2007, 03:37:04 PM

Quote from: Dodgy Loner on July 25, 2007, 03:18:12 PM
I never redbud so such a bright yellow when freshly sawn.

I think that is another anomaly in this tree. I have sawn redbud before and it was darker more like mulberry or darker than cherry for example fresh, then dried much darker still like you said. I am positive it is redbud though, just a weird one smiley_rainbow_colors.

johncinquo · July 25, 2007, 04:19:13 PM

I probably do things backwards, but my approach often leads to a very rewarding future, for me anyway. If there is someone that I can expect will have something I might want later on, and they want to sell something now, I try and come to a good meeting point for both of us. If they have a log that I think is worth $20 or $100, I tell them out front and explain that I would not normally pay them that price, but I will for this, and I would like them to bring whatever they have in the future to me to look at and make first offers. Whether it is logs, firewood, old chainsaws, barnwood, blueberries, cowbells or home made beer! They come back to me and work something out, or they remember I treated them right on the 1st deal and are happy to give me a break or sometimes the just say take it, they dont need anything for it. For me, being "the guy that treated them right" goes a long way in not only dollars and cents, but untangibles that you can't ever put a price on.

I agreed to cut some slabs for a guy near my house, for mantles and whatver else he had in mind. When I was done I let him keep his money, but mentioned I needed some fill sand hauled that I didnt want to do with my lil tractor. A week or so later I came home to a huge pile that I would have had to pay WAY more money for that what I would have made for the slabs. Now he drops off very nice saw logs that he takes down excavating, and if there is something he wants cut up in the future, I am sure I'll do it for free. I had a lady that wanted some pear trees cut down, but thought they were worth some money. I wanted to try the wood, so I paid her $25 for the trees and cut and removed them. When the county was going to cut down the 36" oak tree in her yard to widen the road, she called me quick to come get it, for free. When I loaded it up the county boys said they were scared to go near it with a saw, as the lady was all over them to make sure her "friend" came and got it and they didnt cut it into firewood.

Sorry long winded, but I woulda thrown a couple 20's at the guy who has burned 40,000lbs of those ugly things, just to make sure he remembered me the next time and maybe dropped a few off to me.

Daren · July 25, 2007, 05:11:24 PM

Quote from: johncinquo on July 25, 2007, 04:19:13 PM

Sorry long winded, but I woulda thrown a couple 20's at the guy who has burned 40,000lbs of those ugly things, just to make sure he remembered me the next time and maybe dropped a few off to me.

I get your point, you just have to know this guy, he is different. I have given him white oak trailer decking, welded on his equipment, sharpened a handfull of chains when he is in town working, give him 50-75 (?) referrals a year...He does drop some nice logs off here, when it is convenient. He charges $100 an hour for his service and is 2 months behind. He works 7 days a week sunrise to sunset weather permitting, he will cut trees 30+ days in a row and when it is pouring rain he is splitting firewood in his quonset shed or doing truck/tractor/stump grinder... maintenance . He will just not take the time to play with me. He is 100 miles an hour in one direction, after the days work they move equipment sometimes after dark to the next job. If I am between point A and point B, I get logs or if he is close and thinks to call me I fetch them. He plans his jobs to cut down on travel, going in a big circle with his stuff, not back and forth. I can't afford to follow him around, I have a couple businesses myself to run. And lets face it he is cutting yard trees and most of them are junk, but they are all the same to him, $ once they are down and gone. My little sawmill does not interest him that much. We are buddies, I have known him for 15+ years (I have only had a sawmill for 5). He is just a different guy like I said, their is nothing I can do to change our situation. It just is what it is.

Ironwood · July 26, 2007, 03:19:29 PM

Daren,

Point taken. These situations "are what they are". You have to be dynamic to deal with so many publics and personalities. That is how I do it. I have a short list of guys I refer for logging jobs that people approach me to buy. This short list is folks who help me and I return the favor by helping them. There are others that I get out my wallet for. If I don't feel "some kind of love" in return I quickly move on, or charge them in return. I deal with folks from all over, I have to keep in mind peoples backrounds and how things are done around their parts. I have one "city" contact from the FF and I have to remind him that I am not out to screw him like most folks around him are trying to do. Like I said you have to be DYNAMIC. I enjoy the variety quite frankly (even the city folk). ;D

Reid

Dodgy Loner · July 27, 2007, 10:16:34 PM

Daren, just out of curiosity, how do you market lumber like that? As beautiful as it is, it seems like it's a pretty small pool of prospective buyers for that stuff.

Ironwood · July 28, 2007, 07:38:45 AM

Dodgy loner,

I am interested. Daren what are you doing with the two slabs with the folding ruler on them?

Reid

Daren · July 28, 2007, 07:43:45 AM

Quote from: Dodgy Loner on July 27, 2007, 10:16:34 PM
, it seems like it's a pretty small pool of prospective buyers for that stuff.

Demand may not be great , but supply is still far less than demand...making the price high. I found after about a year of humping wet oak off my little mill for $1.50 bft there was $15 bft lumber out there

. Same work/overhead/storage and like you mentioned the marketing for 10X the money. The marketing of figured or unusual wood is actually easier for me. I have a few local woodworkers who are funky wood fans. But the internet is my main tool, either my website or other places. The thing is if that was a plain log, someone from out of state is not usually willing to pay shipping that equals the price of the lumber. Especially if they can get the same kinda stock locally. But something unique and "exotic" they can justify shipping costs, if it adds $1 or $2 bft they are willing to pay it.

You are right the number of buyers is a tiny percentage of the number of people who just want plain wood, but I still cannot keep things like this in stock. Most logs are sold before they are dry, with a few email pictures to previous customers/posts on woodworking forums :

(some before they are even sawn). I obviously don't mill wood like this everyday, but I could sell all my little mill and I could produce pretty easy I figure. I am keeping a few boards from this particular log for myself and a couple burls, the rest is already sold and I just sawed it this week (except for a couple burls, but they will sell, if not I will cut them into 3/4" squares 5 1/2" long and sell them for $2-$3 each to pen turners) I did no marketing, just posted pictures on a couple places I visit everyday online anyway and sent one email to a guy/customer who likes the "hard to find".

I have perfectly clear walnut 14"-18" wide for example that I have been setting on for 2 years, no buyers ??? Stuff like pictured in this thread will be sold inside of 2 weeks for 3X the money.

So the short answer (after I already rambled) is the internet. I could take an ad in the local paper and still have it 2 years from now like the walnut I mentioned ?

Some logs, like this one, I don't even want to sell :'(. But I cannot afford to be a "wood collector", I have to eat too. If I was born rich instead of good looking I would not market any of it, just saw it and keep it in the shed. I love to just look at it.

Daren · July 28, 2007, 07:51:47 AM

Quote from: Ironwood (Reid Crosby) on July 28, 2007, 07:38:45 AM

I am interested. Daren what are you doing with the two slabs with the folding ruler on them?

Reid

All are sold...except the biggest/burliest one I am keeping for myself. I am keeping that one slab ,2 bookmatches and a couple burls. The rest is "spoken for" and I have not even named my price yet :

.

Nor do I know how it is going to behave drying, I might have "sold" more than I will end up with

. It was not a very big log.

Ironwood · July 28, 2007, 06:30:34 PM

FYI Daren, sell it before drying. Give the buyer the option for you to dry it or not. Let them assume the risk. Yuo will get less return upfront but you also let the buyer take the risk.

Reid

Brad_S. · July 29, 2007, 08:55:58 AM

Quote from: Daren on July 28, 2007, 07:43:45 AM
I have perfectly clear walnut 14"-18" wide for example that I have been setting on for 2 years, no buyers

I'm surprised to hear that. I can't keep that stuff around. Guys who make reproduction period furniture grab them in a heartbeat. Now that walnut is heating up again, it's getting harder to find logs that will yield wide boards in price ranges I can afford.

Daren · July 29, 2007, 09:46:38 AM

Quote from: Brad_S. on July 29, 2007, 08:55:58 AM
Quote from: Daren on July 28, 2007, 07:43:45 AM
I have perfectly clear walnut 14"-18" wide for example that I have been setting on for 2 years, no buyers
I'm surprised to hear that. I can't keep that stuff around.

Must just be my market. I of course want a premium for the wider stuff (anything over 12"). I sell mostly to hobby woodworkers and I think one thing is they don't have anything bigger than a 12" planer ? I am not going to sell it s2s, I only sell rough sawn. Another market thing, I ship wood and am leery of planing something to thickness and it get a ding in it. I would rather sell rough/oversized to avoid that, any shipping/handling marks can be planed out by the end user. I'm sure s2s or s4s it would move. I am not sweating it really, just mentioned it, I do not have tons of it and the logs where "free". I cannot keep 6"-8" wide in stock, they will buy 2-7" wide boards before they will one 14" because I want more $ for it.

Brad_S. · July 29, 2007, 12:02:59 PM

I too think it's a market thing. I'm blessed to have a high number of per capita woodworkers around me. The hardest to please but non-price conscious are the period furniture builders. I only sell rough to them because they are purists and want to hand plane the lumber. I too charge extra for wide boards and the right buyer doesn't even flinch. Many of these guys think nothing of driving 200 miles to southeastern PA were there are some high end specialty lumber mills and dropping a small fortune on the right wood.

urbanlumberinc · July 29, 2007, 04:55:18 PM

I'm in a really similar situation to Daren. Early on I invested alot of time and money making tree service contacts and attempting to educate them as to what I'm looking for. So far I have 2 guys that "get it". Both are older, 2nd generation tree men. I have a handful of others that come up with a good log now and then when I call and check. I've tried several times to get more of the tree services on the program, but I've have better luck in just skipping the middle man and try to talk the trees into laying down under my saw for me.