am I getting the most from my logs?

[Modat22]

I'm cutting my own trees to build a wood shop with a loft to store my project wood. Most of my trees are white oak and will make three 12ft saw logs 14 inches on the small end.

I figure I can get 7 good heart centered boards with a little wane on them and 2 boards with the heartwood centered horizontally (which I think will bow on the flat side)

I don't mind wane, Anyway does that sound right to you?

Thanks

[LeeB]

What size boards? 2x8?

[Ron Wenrich]

On most logs, you get what you get.  What's your opening face target size?  Sometimes that makes a difference of a board, but most times not.  It does make a difference in grade recovery.

[bedway]

Im going to listen close to this, as i am in the learning phase of sawing also,,,,bedway

[jrokusek]

Im going to listen close to this, as i am in the learning phase of sawing also,,,,bedway

Me too.  Next Monday and Tuesday I have vacation and am going to drop a few trees and try to saw boards for a trailer deck.  Should be a learning experience!   :D

[DanG]

That's a good question, Modat, but we need a little more info to give you a good answer.  Are you building the entire structure, or creating workshop space in an existing building?  It helps to know in advance what sizes will be needed, and what each will be used for.  Make a cut list and keep a running tally of the various sizes that have been cut.  With the list as a reference, you can look for needed sizes in each log and take them where you find them.  You can utilize your logs much more efficiently if you have created some options for yourself, rather than trying to get all one size out of a given log.

When grade sawing or cutting dimension lumber for inventory, you have the luxury of pretty much reacting to what the log offers.  But if you're sawing for a specific project, or custom cutting for a customer who has specific sizes in mind, you need to do more planning.  Have an overall plan for the project(cut list) then make a mental plan for each log as it comes up.  Take a minute to study the log and determine what it wants to be.  Maybe take a couple of measurements.  Rather than guessing, I'll sometimes lay the ruler up there and make a mark at the 4" opening point, then measure down to the pith to help make my decision.  Sometimes, doing this will change my plan and help me make better lumber.

What is going to support that loft in your shop?  If you're going to need posts or heavy timbers, take them from the center of each log.  That way, you'll avoid those pith boards that are likely to bow, and you'll have posts that will stay straight.

How you make your plan happen depends on the type of saw you're using.  Through and through saws, like bandmills and conventional circular mills do it one way, and dimension mills such as mine, and swingers use a different technique.  The same boards are in the log, but the order in which you take them out is different.

I hope some other sawyers will chime in here and tell how they take a log apart.  This could be a real good thread. ;)

[Modat22]

Everything 2x6 unless 2x8's makes less waste out of my logs. All building posts are 6x6x14' long bolted to cedar in the ground. Support for the loft will be 6x6's self laminated with 2x6 floor joists.

I'll probably let the frame stand for a season before putting 3/4" plywood on the floors.

Oh and using my bandsaw mill to do the cutting.

P.S. I never thought about how heavy a green oak 6x6x14' can be while moving them around by hand alone. I'm thinking about just lamenating all the posts as I put them up since I'm building alone as well but I prefer the solid posts.

[Bibbyman]

Having custom sawn projects for people out of their own logs, I can say they have problems getting the right logs to make the right lumber they need for the project.  Most of the time it's a challenge to get the lumber the customer needs from the logs he brings.

One customer comes to mind,  he needed something like 100 2x8s by 14' for barn loft floor joist.  He brought me trailer load after trailer load of oak.  But most was too small to marginal in size, too crooked,  rotten or busted up (because he knew nothing about falling a tree).  I'd point out things like crooked logs, rot, etc. and he'd say "that's the trees I have", and bring more logs.  It took us six months of dealing with this guy to finally get the numbers of joist he needed.  Of course,  we sawed up a lot more lumber other than the 2x8s.  The end result was, he could have bought a 100 2x8s from me for the sawing fee he paid me to saw up three times as many logs as it would have taken.

We do a lot of "saw to order" sawmilling.  That is,  a customer will call up and want 200 2x6s 12' for example.  When we have a good log inventory,  I'll go through our 12' stack of logs and find those that will best produce 2x6s.

In your case,  I'd have to wonder if you may be working at throwing away dollars to save cents.  Really nice butt cut white oak can be pretty valuable in the log – I'd say twice or more as valuable as construction grade lumber they may produce.

[treebucker]

I'm with Bibbyman on saving that white oak to sell. I'm from the old school on wood selection for barns. We just sided one side of a barn we are building with white oak. It was lower grade so I didn't feel so bad. White oak and poplar dominated the local area for years. But, with the price of white oak so high I tend more toward poplar. Cedar or black locust for any wood that will touch the ground. While lesser species can be used for framing.

I'd be careful to support your loft so that it will not come crashing down when loaded with green wood. Green wood weighs a lot more than hay.

You mentioned laminating 6x6s for the poles. I know they are very strong but you're in for a lot of nail pounding. I've heard that there are power nailers that will drive a nail into white oak but I have yet to see one. Would you consider using cedar or locust poles flattened on two (or more) sides? 

[ronwood]

I would put together a cutlist like Dang mentioned. Cut the widest and longest boards first and work my way down to smaller lumber. When cutting the longer lumber you will end with short pieces that can be applied to cutlist.

I looking at building a shop (post and beam) next year and using pine that I can get from the tree services and keeping my better oak to sell. Need to work on the design so I can get my cutlist started. Have 12 logs ready to saw.

Ron

[Bibbyman]

Another sad but true story..

A couple of young brother farmers brought us a load of white oak to saw into 1x6 fencing boards.  All were veneer or at least "grade" quality.   One log was 16' long and "squared out" an 18x18.  If you cut the defect out of all the lumber that came out of these dozen or so logs it would not have filled a five gallon bucket.  They even went so far as to cut a stick of firewood off the butt ends to get rid of the butt swell.

My dad happened by and seen the logs on or skid blocks.  He about passed a brick.  He had been in the timber business for 50 years and half that time cutting mostly veneer.  He commented, "Does these boys know what they have here?"  As he'd been out of the business for at least 10 years,  his evaluation was about 1/3 the current market but the difference was the same.  I told him that I had advised them of the value of the logs and where they could market them and even offered to trade them lumber for them.  Nothing doing.  They wanted fencing boards.

The reasoning?  Their family had about a 1,000 acres between what the boys had, their dad and what they had inherited from their granddad.  I'd say half this land was in hardwood timber.  The father had a goal of de-foresting as much as possible to turn it into pasture.  He had taken one load of logs to a local mill and was very disappointed in what he got from it.  So he calculated it would be worth more in firewood.  Besides,  it would give the boys something to do in the winter time.  So they'd go out and cut timber and make huge racks of logs and when firewood season would start up, they would pull the logs into the barn and cut and split them into firewood. 

These logs came from their firewood pile!  They paid me a couple hundred dollars to take a couple thousand dollars worth of logs and turn it into a couple hundred dollars worth of lumber.

Just an example of how some people will work a throwing away opportunity,  they had a homemade splitter hooked to the hydraulic system of a 100 hp tractor.  One son was complaining to me about getting sick from the exhaust fumes from running the tractor with the barn doors closed.  And it took 5 gallons/hr of diesel to run!

I pointed out our firewood splitter that had an 8hp gas engine that would probably take about a half gallon per hour to run and was likely to have a faster cycle time than the homemade unit they'd built.

A couple of years later they came up with a regular gas engine powered splitter.   

Despite almost daily interaction with these boys, (they rent our pasture and cut our hay – plus we get milk and eggs and garden veggies from them),  we still can't buy a log from them. 

[fat olde elf]

I think some of Bibbyman's and Mary's customers have moved to North Carolina...Had a job for a fellow putting up a pole barn.  All of his logs were on site and when I looked at his lumber schedule, especially 2 X 10's, I knew he just couldn't make it out of the material he had..."I can make little boards out of big trees, but I can't big boards out of little trees" He ended up buying nearly every 2 X 10 out of my inventory....He had a really cute wife, so I them a real deal.....The barn really turned out well..

I also agree on the several comments about value of different species.  I just can't see using valuable hardwoods on a project when a less valuable species would do just as well and might be easier to handle.  On the other hand I will only sell white Oak for trailers..Go figure..   

[beenthere]

fat old elfe

Can't ever remember reading about a 'really cute wife' bein part of the cost figurin equation......as long as the barn turned out well   ;D ;D ;D

[Modat22]

most of my hardwoods are around 12 inch diameter. I do have a few exceptions though, I also have a good stand of poplar but I have to cut a path to reach them. Since you told me about the possible value of my oak I was gonna see if I can work out a trade with another sawmill guy down the street. If I can trade for more BF I'd do it.

[Modat22]

Back to my original question though, if you had say 13" dia logs and 14" logs and you wanted to get 2x lumber out of it what would you cut to get the most out of it if not going for grade lumber? Assuming the log is good quality, min defects etc.

I find myself taking alot of time looking at the log, turning it etc. Sometimes I draw the cut lines just to see how it will come out. In the end I usually spend more time looking at the log than cutting on it.

I recently spent 2 hours examining a 40 inch cedar. It had huge gill like sections that I ended up  sawing around then sawing into those to get wider boards. I don't want to get into the habit of spending so much time on logs.

[beenthere]

Studying the logs like you are doing, and then sawing them will take some time at first. Soon you will have the experience to get the log on the mill, roll it to a place that looks right, and then get the opening face made. Then the following cuts will be made as you go along, and see the quality within the log develop.
Making plans of all the cuts in the log before opening it up, will likely not work out for you, and just waste your time. Part of the excitement (I think) was getting the log open to see what's there, then making the cutting decisions (either a run to the other side of a cant, or turning to take a better board off a different face) for the fun part.
A lot of things to keep in mind, not the least is your cutting order.
It will go faster......

[Modat22]

I'm with Bibbyman on saving that white oak to sell. I'm from the old school on wood selection for barns. We just sided one side of a barn we are building with white oak. It was lower grade so I didn't feel so bad. White oak and poplar dominated the local area for years. But, with the price of white oak so high I tend more toward poplar. Cedar or black locust for any wood that will touch the ground. While lesser species can be used for framing.

I'd be careful to support your loft so that it will not come crashing down when loaded with green wood. Green wood weighs a lot more than hay.

You mentioned laminating 6x6s for the poles. I know they are very strong but you're in for a lot of nail pounding. I've heard that there are power nailers that will drive a nail into white oak but I have yet to see one. Would you consider using cedar or locust poles flattened on two (or more) sides? 

I'm not going to store much wood in the loft, just material I want to acclumate to the shop conditions before I make things. I plan on totally finishing the inside with paneling or cedar (sealed) with insulation. This is really going to be my home away from home. I was also thinking about putting some sort of deck at loft level for my telescope.

[Ron Wenrich]

Here's my procedure for a pretty simple log that I'm going to cut 2x material out of.  Roll the log onto the carriage.  Set your knots up on a 45° angle.  Check your heart check to see if it can be contained, and look for any other defects that might effect your board quality.

Cut your opening face on side #1 for 6", if you need 2x6.  Take a board if you can get it.  Roll 180° to side #3, and square up to 8".  You might be able to get another board.

Now, you have all your cutting ready for 2x8.  Start on side #2 and take a slab and a board.  I would recommend to flip over to the side #4 and take your next slab cut and a board.  Then flip back and forth between #2 & #4 to recover boards.   This will reduce the amount of spring you get from your logs.

I also would build my stack so that I can just cut through the log.  That would be necessary for figuring out your starting point on side #4.  It makes it a lot more convenient to write things down so you know where your next cut is going to be.  Eventually, it becomes second nature.

If you have defect, you may be able to cut around it.  Instead of building a stack, you start wherever the log allows it.  When you get to the defect, you make a shim cut that removes the defect.

I'm sure all this is as clear as mud.   ;)

[Modat22]

This is what I was originally thinking about on the 14" logs. Note this isn't wood for sale.



I can't figure out the best way to cut this without the waste.

[Dan_Shade]

My guess is all of those boards, except for the 2x6 through the pith are going to warp and/or crook like crazy. 

I'd cut them similarly to this:

[Ron Wenrich]

I'm sawing the same way as Dan.  You won't get 2 2x6 and a 2" dog board out of the center.  That's 14" right there, and we have to talk about wane and slabbing in there someplace, not to mention kerf. 

[Tom]

I'd do something like this.
cut a 2x6 and maybe a 1x10 off each side
turn the 6" cant up and cut through and through.

[Modat22]

ahhh. Thats looks better, I can always use the 1x10's for projects.

[Bibbyman]

This is what I was originally thinking about on the 14" logs. Note this isn't wood for sale.



I can't figure out the best way to cut this without the waste.

This is the best way to make rocking chair rockers but the worst way to make a usable board.

Tom and Dan have the right idear!

[Dan_Shade]

I've learned something around here, Ron, Tom, and Bibby agree with my assessment 

The other thing I've learned is one board you can use is better than two that you can't use.