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Barber Chair Take Away...

Started by Warren, July 08, 2007, 03:04:38 PM

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Warren

Managed to "barber chair" my first tree yesterday afternoon.  Good news is I was standing 20 ft away on my escape path when it split, and, the tree came all the way down on it's own.  Afterwards, I was looking over the stump and noticed that I did not hold my bar level on the face cut, or the back cut.  Apparently let the tip drop on both.  AS a result, on the back cut, the tip of my bar was actually 2" below the plane of the face cut.  I am assuming this "poor form" on my part caused the barber chair. 

The tree also had a definite lean in the direction I was felling it.  Would the lean have contributed to a barber chair if I had done everything right on my part ?

Looking for advise and correction from the professionals to prevent this in the future.  All help greatly appreciated.

Thx,  Warren

LT40SHD42, Case 1845C,  Baker Edger ...  And still not near enough time in the day ...

Gary_C

Dropping the tip of your bar would not by itself cause a barberchair. On trees that are leaners in the direction of the fall it is important that you bore cut and establish the width of your hinge before you finish the back cut.

Other than that , a too narrow opening on the face could be a problem that can cause a barberchair.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Reddog

I am with Gary on this one.
Hinge to thick or face opening to small.

Kevin

If your back cut is made too slow on a leaning tree it can split out.
Do you have a picture of the stump?

Ianab

It's probably a combination of the tree leaning and your cut not being perfect.

If the force of the leaning tree becomes greater then the strength holding the log together and the hinge is too thick / not formed correctly then the tree splits. :o Leaners can barbercair with conventional cutting, even if you do everything right.

I allways use a bore cut on leaning trees, lets you set up the hinge wood properly BEFORE the holding strap is cut and the tree starts to move. It's a much safer cut in that situation.

Cheers

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

maple flats

I'm with Gary_C and Ianab. On a leaner especially you must learn to bore cut before you finish the back cut. Do the face cut with a WIDE angle (70 degrees+) and then with the attack part of the saw bar start a plunge cut and when in far enough to prevent kick back go straight into and thru to form your hinge. The face cut must be clean or fix it before you plunge cut. Make the hinge 10% of the diameter. If your bar is not long enough you can either narrow the trunk on one or both sides, and/ or plunge from both. when you make the plunge do not be too close to the hinge, but rather go thru and then work to the hinge. With practice it becomes easier but check both sides to verify hinge size. From there with a leaner just cut towards the back of the tree (opposite the face cut side) and as soon as you cut thru look to verify correct fall and head immediately to your pre planned escape route. If you are not cutting a leaner do the same until the final cut. Here a wedge or 2 may be needed. If you are pushing a tree against it's lean you might need to stack wedges to get it to fall, have enough plastic wedges on hand before you start. And no matter how good you get at it never forget to be extra careful, all tree falling is dangerous. Wear your safety gear at all times.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

Dale Hatfield

[
Quote from: maple flats on July 08, 2007, 06:23:31 PM
From there with a leaner just cut towards the back of the tree (opposite the face cut side) and as soon as you cut thru look to verify correct fall and head immediately to your pre planned escape route. If you are not cutting a leaner do the same until the final cut.

Cutting from the inside out on a leaner can be a good way to take a ride or watch your saw leave you and get planted.
When you cut from the inside out. On a foward leaner,The wood behind the bar can break away from the ground traping  saw. If their is a root swell on the back side .It can tare up and out of the ground. When this happens you can be flipped over by the uplift of root and ground.
Best way is to make the open face notch.
Establish hinge of proper length and thickness.Based DIB.
Once hinge is made cut back  a ways  leaving holding wood in the back.
Once your sure impact area is clear, Know your escape route.
Finish cut from the back side towards the hinge.
Once you  start dont stop till she pops loose and escape.
Dale
Game Of Logging trainer,  College instructor of logging/Tree Care
Chainsaw Carver

arojay

I am with Dale Hatfield on this.  I have heard from some guys who say cut from the inside all of the way back.  I have tried it and found some unpleasant surprises take place and quickly.  Finishing the felling cut from the backside seems to allow you better control.
440B skidder, JD350 dozer, Husqvarnas from 335 to 394. All spruced up

sawguy21

I wondered about that too. I had never heard about cutting from the inside out, I place my wedges and work from the back of the tree.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Gary_C

This is the way I cut most all large trees.



At this point I have finished cutting towards the back of the tree and set my wedges. Now I will cut from the back till the tree starts to fall, or if it does not fall, I will drive the wedges in till it does fall.



Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Larry

Well lets see....nice even hinge with proper angle/width, no dutchman, no splinter pull over 3", and tree within 3' of stump.  Plus bonus points for not leaving any money on the stump.

Me thinks Gary knows how to cut trees...and a textbook photo of how to do it correctly.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

maple flats

I have cut leaners from the inside out so the holding wood has the most hold and so far have had not problems ever, BUT if you want you can then cut from the back side. Either way make a quick retreat as the tree starts to fall. If the saw does start to go with the tree at anytime, which I have not had happen, let go and get out of there, even a pricey saw is cheaper than a funeral or major hospital time. The Gary_C pictures do show a very good face cut and hinge. If leaning I prefer cutting from inside back but if rather straight or slight lean I do it from the back and may even plunge in to place a wedge and then cut from the side towards the wedge on each side, compression side first then tension side.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

Kevin

Another area for concern is the wood under the hinge, if it happens to extend down over a root then it could stall the tree also causing it to split out.
Cutting into the stump below the hinge will reduce the chance of this happening.


Warren

Folks,   I apprecaite all of the input.  Reading over the comments, there were several things I could have done better:

1) The front cut was about 5" deep on a 21" stump.  I thought that should have been deep enough. BUT, there was an irregular shape in that area, so the hinge was only about 10" wide.  (looked kinda like Gary's last picture, on the side opposite his hinge)

2) I cut straight in from the back and stopped/retreated as soon as I saw movement.  This left a very thick hinge when it did actually go over (in slow motion).

In retrospect I should have cut deeper to create a wider hinge.  And probably should have stayed on the saw a little longer to reduce the hinge thickness before retreating.  In addition to keeping the bar level so all of the cuts lined up better.

Gary,  most excellent pictures.  I have attempted the plunge cut, pull out, cut the back strap to release before, but have pinched the saw several times.  Your pix with the wedges are very helpful to better understand how to make it work properly...

Kevin, You are correct. I have had that section of root structure pull/split out before.

My number one goal is to be safe and come home in one piece.  Close behind is not to waste wood.  While not a big tree by most standards, I was pretty disappointed when I saw the split and realized the amount of wood wasted...

I appreciate everyones comments and willingness to share.  This is part of what makes the Forestry Forum a great place on the 'net.

Warren
LT40SHD42, Case 1845C,  Baker Edger ...  And still not near enough time in the day ...

Qweaver

I'm pulling on almost every tree that I fell.  I use the tractor for the small ones and the dozer for the big ones.  The few minutes that it takes to attach the chain and cable is time well spent in my opinion.
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

WDH

Quote from: Gary_C on July 09, 2007, 12:52:21 AM
This is the way I cut most all large trees.




How do you keep from cutting into the wedge when you start the back cut?  I want to try this technique, and I was wondering after the plunge cut to form the hinge, how do you cut to place wedges without cutting them as you complete the back cut?
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

beenthere

Warren
You have initiated a good tree felling discussion.
I'd suggest that you would enjoy taking a GOL course (Game of Logging) to learn some of the fine techniques of reading the tree and placing the cuts as have been described in this thread.
Each tree may be a bit different, and some can pull tricks on the person who tries to do them all with the same basic technique.  After GOL, I plunge cut most all the time. After the plunge cut, saw to make the best possible hinge, then back cut to leave the holding wood and place for the plastic wedge (or two). Then when all clear, everything checked, make the cut on the holding wood to release the tree. Basic, but generally seems to work real good.

I rarely hook a cable to pull trees over, as the terrain is not conducive to do that, and someone pulling too soon, or too late, just seems to lead to additional problems (too soon = barberchair). The communication to a second person around the tree adds another safety factor to consider. But yard trees, that is different IMO.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Gary_C

Quote from: Kevin on July 09, 2007, 07:36:47 AM
Another area for concern is the wood under the hinge, if it happens to extend down over a root then it could stall the tree also causing it to split out.
Cutting into the stump below the hinge will reduce the chance of this happening.


The way I was taught, the hinge and notch opening must be formed carefully so the hinge wood will remain in control  through most but not all of the fall and most likely break from bending and not tension. Overcutting into the hinge or in any other way compromizing the hinge wood is not advisable. I do cut away the sides sometimes if there is a lot of butt flare as in this picture.



Quote from: WDH on July 09, 2007, 09:01:22 AM
Quote from: Gary_C on July 09, 2007, 12:52:21 AM

How do you keep from cutting into the wedge when you start the back cut?  I want to try this technique, and I was wondering after the plunge cut to form the hinge, how do you cut to place wedges without cutting them as you complete the back cut?

That is why I use cheap plastic wedges. Sometimes I do cut into the wedges.  ;D
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Kevin

Quoteso the hinge wood will remain in control  through most but not all of the fall

That will depend on whether you want the tree to stay on the stump.

If the tree is leaning it probably doesn't need wedging unless the intent is to lift and turn the tree.

The problem with large leaning trees is they want to split out due to the tension within the tree before the hinge is set up.
On a standard back cut you have to keep up with that tension wood to keep the tree from splitting out and that requires full throttle and fast cutting up to but not compromising the hinge wood.

I agree boring is best but boring wasn't done on this tree so why did it barber chair?

DanG

In cutting trees, like most other things, us amateurs face some problems that the pros just don't have.  One of those things is holding the saw level.  That seems to be one of those things that comes with experience.  Don't be ashamed to cheat a little bit and make a level mark of some kind to get you started off right.  You can use chalk or spray paint, but I usually just use the saw to just scratch the bark where I want the cut to go.  My back and knees don't bend as well as they used to, so these marks help me a lot.  Also, I will ask my helper to tell me if the saw is level before I start a cut.

I put a rope or cable in most of the bigger ones and use the truck winch.  Many times, I put a snatch block on another tree so the truck is close enough for me to run the winch myself with a long control cable.  I just keep the cable almost tight, so it doesn't have any effect unless I need it.  Most of the time I don't, but it is there if I do.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

beenthere

Quote from: Kevin on July 09, 2007, 10:48:04 AM
..............
I agree boring is best but boring wasn't done on this tree so why did it barber chair?

The question answers itself.  Boring wasn't done on this tree, so it did barber chair.   

Or did I misread the question.   ::)

And I mark the tree bark like DanG   :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Kevin

Boring would be a preventive measure as would cutting a V hinge or boring the hinge etc. but from this ...
QuoteI cut straight in from the back and stopped/retreated as soon as I saw movement.  This left a very thick hinge when it did actually go over (in slow motion).
The hinge was too thick at the time the felling cut was stopped.
If the cut continued and kept up to the breaking fibers the tree most likely would not have split out causing the barber chair.
It was too late to bore the tree after the back cut was made, the only thing that would have saved this tree was to commit to the cut up to the hinge wood but if you stop prematurely you better get out of there.

Dodgy Loner

I've never tried to fell a tree using a boring cut, and I'm having a hard time envisioning how this would be done without experiencing kickback.  Does anyone happen to have pictures of the proper method?  Also, I've been taught (not by a professional) to cut a deeper notch with a sharper angle than the ones in Gary's pictures.  Is a deeper notch usually used when you're not doing a boring cut, or have I been doing it the wrong way all these years?  I see the obvious benefit of Gary's method (ie, less likelyhood of splintering), but it also seems that it would require more experience to "steer" the tree using that method.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Larry

 

I think...iffen I remember correctly the lower quarter of the bar tip is called the attack portion with the upper quadrant being called the kickback portion.

In any case once you get the tip in it's a easy plunge cut and you cut to the hinge to establish the correct thickness.

I can see GOL training in your future if you want to learn how to do it correctly.  And each tree species reacts differently.  Walnut needs ears cut on the sides to avoid splitting a slab off the front.  Some like a thin hinge...some like a hinge with the center bored out.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Dodgy Loner

Thanks for the photo, Larry.  I guess boring seems like it would be harder than it actually is, because it's so different from how I normally use a chainsaw.  I would love to get some proper training in tree felling.  That tree in your photo looks a heckuva lot bigger than anything I've ever felled.  The biggest tree I've ever felled is probably about 18".  I've cut up trees that were more than 4' in diameter, but they were already down when I cut them.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

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