iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Someone put numbered tags on my trees. What does it mean?

Started by Bill E, June 23, 2007, 08:15:06 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Bill E

This has really got me baffled (and mad).

I've been having a running battle with trepassers.  I think mostly kids who use a trail on my property for beer drinking and smoking.  I put a no tresspass sign and chicken wire fence at the trail entrance up they take it down.  I put it back up, etc.  Could be an adult neighbor or two also for all I know who think they have a right to use the trail.

Last week someone entered the forest on either side of the trail entrance and put aluminum nails into about a dozen trees in the area at about shoulder height.  Just pounded them in a half inch or so.  They also pounded antoher nail at the base of many of the same trees with numbered tags on them -- sequentially numbered.

Googling aluminum nails and tags led me to forestry supply web sites and articles about using aluminum nails and tags to mark trees for research, to mark save trees and to blaze trails.

Maybe he/they just did this to 'get my goat' but I'm wondering if anyone has seen nails and tags placed like this and have an idea on what someone may plan to do e.g. even steal the trees?

Thanks for any ideas.

Bill

Tom

what it says to me is that someone is tresspassing.  It may just be a misunderstanding.   I would ask my Urban forester.  Usually they are in the Agricultural Extension agent's office.  That can probably be found in the county partr of your phone book.

I would have no qualms in asking for an investigation by the local Sheriff's office too.

I would also heavily post the property lines now so that there is no question about ownership.

If your county has a tree ordinance, it might be worth a phone call to contact that department as well.

Ron Wenrich

It sounds like a continuous inventory of some type.  That's where they mark trees and come back to them some time in the future.  I would think they would at least talk to private landowners, if this is the case. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Bill E

Thanks Tom and Ron,

Just talked to a neighbor who saw an official looking truck parked at the site and two workers with a long tape measure.

Looks like Ron was right.  All of the upper nails are three inchers pounded in about 1/2 inch and at breast height.  I just noticed an increment borer was used on one tree.  So it looks like 'they' are planning on tracking rate of growth in diameter.

I just entered the property into a current use tax program so I bet it was a county deal.  Like Tom said, it would have been nice to have been asked or at least told in advance. 

My first thought was that it was a really strange form of vandalism and did get the sherrif out here to look at it last night.

Bill


WDH

Sounds too organized to be vandalism.  Still a little weird that they did not contact you.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Ron Scott

Yes, those involved should have contacted you. The landowner has a right to know what is happening on their property and should be informed accordingly, even if it is an official survey or inventory as such. You want them to know that "you" are the property owner and want an explanation of what's going on.

Even the "government" should ask permission to enter upon private property and let you know why.
~Ron

SwampDonkey

Yes, it sounds like a permanent sample plot (PSP). Before establishing one of these the landowner should always be contacted and given details. Ones we have established have a starting point with a PSP #, a distance and azimuth painted in orange on a tree. Usually, on a field or road edge and some vertical lines painted on trees on the path to the plot centre. The plot centre has a metal stake. Trees are tagged with an aluminum tag and given a number, nailed at DBH with a line of paint at DBH, numbered clockwise around the plot. Perimeter trees have a white vertical line painted facing plot centre, between breast height and eye level. At least 1/2 the diameter of a perimeter tree must be inside the plot radius. Trees smaller than 5 cm have a tag wired to a limb because they will split and crack around the nail. Most landowners will not harvest any of these trees of the plot, but are under no obligation to leave them standing. Some plots do get harvested, but a new plot may be established later on to monitor the growth and succession of the site chosen. Plots are re measured every 3-5 years.

There are also forest development surveys (FDS) done, but these are not permanent and are just like a regular cruise. They are usually done when new aerial photography is completed in a region and used as 'ground truthing' the aerial photography interpretation. These are contracted by DNR to forest technicians or aerial photography contractors. Most of the time the landowner is not notified unless you have to get access through a crop field. These folks are paid by the plot, not the hour, so they don't spend time chasing down landowners. That would be DNR's responsibility on private lands.  A sample of these plots are rechecked by DNR or Forest Company [Industrial Freehold (IF) lands] staff for accuracy or to see that they are actually done and not fudged. Forest development maps are then produced showing each unique cover type with a number and codes representing age, crown closure, species composition %, development stage, height..etc.

cheers
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

GHRoberts

"I just entered the property into a current use tax program so I bet it was a county deal."

Perhaps something you signed explained that this was going to happen.

Phorester

Sounds like this is a permenant plot as has already been stated.  If so, it could have been put in decades, and many landowners,  ago.

I have worked with our employees who measure these.  When these plots were first put in in the 1940s, they got permission from the landowner at that time. 

In one of my two counties alone there are about 70 of these plots. They are remeasured every few years. There is simply no time for today's FIA (forest inventory Analysis) people to determine each current landowner, contact them, and get permission before they go in to re-measure a plot.  They would get bogged down so much they would never be able to keep up this inventory.  Legally in Virginia they are not liable for tresspassing while locating and measuring the plots. I suspect that is the case in each State.  They also want as few people as possible to know where these plots are.  This keeps down vandalism of the plots. They go by lat-long and written directions from the last survey to locate each plot.  If they can't find the plot markers, and there is still forest present at that lat-long, they will remark it at that lat-long.  Sounds like that's what they did on your property.

I'd suggest you contact your local State Forester rep. that covers your county.  Maybe they are the ones who do this in your State as in mine. He/she should be able to tell you about it, or point you in the right direction if they aren't the ones who handle these in your State.

Looks like you're contributing to the forest info in your State and didn't even know it.  ;D


beenthere

Phorester
If that is the case, then it should be noted on the deed, and be identified as such when the land changes ownership (right to ingress and egress, or something like that).
At a minimum, the landowner should know the plots are there. Otherwise, they may lose some trees and years of data (if it's really important to them).
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ron Scott

We've encountered such survey plots while preparing and harvesting private landowner timber harvests. In some cases we've encountered the survey remeasurement crew on site. The landowner usually always new where the plots were and we acted acordingly to maintain them during the timber harvest.
~Ron

RynSmith

I did FIA work in the UP and we were always supposed to contact landowners (deer season was spent in county courthouses to get the info).  It wasn't always easy and I'd be lying if I said we never trespassed but we did try to get permission.  It sounds like an FIA plot to me, Bill.  One thing I'd like to correct is that the USFS doesn't want people to treat the plots any differently than the rest of their land - harvest-wise or any other wise.  Part of the data collected looks at harvest rates of the plots.  Also, the poor, underpaid schmoes doing the work love it when they come upon a plot with no trees to count!

tonich

Quote from: SwampDonkey on June 24, 2007, 06:17:22 AM
Yes, it sounds like a permanent sample plot (PSP). Before establishing one of these the landowner should always be contacted and given details.

x2  ;D

Phorester


BEENTHERE, as RynSmith says one of the reasons for these plots is to track forest land use changes over time.  So if a plot is lost to development, new highway or powerline, clearing for agriculture, timber harvesting, forest fire, insect or disease mortailty, that's just part of the data they collect.  Over the decades our FIA people have found that sometimes when a landowner knows a plot exists on his property, he goes out of his way not to disturb it.  I've heard stories where a landowner cleared the forest all around a plot, but left the plot, thinking they were helping by leaving it. Others where the surrounding forest was harvested, but the plot was intentionally left out of the harvest by a well-meaning landowner.  That actually works against part of the data they're trying to collect with this entire FIA system.

Maybe an analogy is that it's like a medical study where the participants don't really know if they are given the drug being tested or a placebo, so as not to do something that would skew the effectiveness of the study.

The tresspassing issue is always there in the background, VA handles the legal end of it by having a law that says we can't be charged with tresspassing in the performance of our duties, including the FIA people.  Then you get into the quandry of wanting to tell a landowner you're going on his property, but then spending time trying to locate the current landowner, then the concern that they may treat the plot differently than the rest of the forest, which skews the data............

This is not an in-your-face confrontational situation where they say to a landowner, screw you, we're going in there anyway and you can't stop us.  Most landowners, after our people explain what they're doing and why they don't notify them beforehand, understand.  The ones that still don't want our people on their land, the FIA people just mark on their data sheet that they could not collect data there because the landowner didn't want them to.  Sometimes the next time that plot is visited there is a different landowner agreeable to the visit.

flip

Sound like a good way for someone to get lead poisioning in the rear :o ;D
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

Tom

Government organizations can make it a lot easier on themselves by being public with their efforts. An example was the Aedes Aegypti Eradication Project where State employees of the program in Florida were aided by many newspaper articles describing the program.  The inspectors then knocked on doors when they went out and were responsible for helping to keep the program in a positive light by educating the public as they went.   These inspectors were all over private property and manually dispersing insecticide as they went.

If these plot inspections were preceded by a media blitz and if the tags were accompanied by a contact identification, there would be much less paranoia generated in the public arena.  People are leery of independent government actions that lead to a tail-wagging-the-dog syndrome.  It's too common a practice for Bureaucracies to assume a position of command when they work with the public and that is counter American freedom.  Using "too much trouble" as an excuse to contact landowners is a poor excuse for a representative of American citizens.  The citizenry doesn't exist for the pleasure of the government.  It's the other way around.  There are too many who forget that and complacency is dangerous.

WDH

The plots are meant to measure what is happening with the forest and should not be biased, as Phorester says.  Some people do not understand how important this information is as a whole.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Tom

I would still hate to find a building inspector in my closet one morning because he wanted to know if my cedar really kept moths away from my clothes.

Wouldn't it be alarming to find a line of orange survey tape strung down the middle of your place one day?  I'd be looking for an answer too.

WDH

I agree that if a permanent FIA sample plot is located on someone's property, they have a right to know.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Tom

Thanks!  Whew!  I was afraid I was going to type another soliloquy.  :D :D

SwampDonkey

I agree with Tom. However, it's not exactly like the fir tipper that collects tips on your property without asking. I don't get excited over it, but maybe 1 in 100 people would. It doesn't hurt the fir tree unless it's too young. What will rub me the wrong way, more so than the tipping, is some fellow lying about where he thought he was when he drove by posted signage (private land) and spotted property trees.  ;)

As most know on here from reading some of the appropriate threads I keep pretty close tabs on my ground and I also measure the growth of selected trees (the pill bottle treatment).


Getting back to identifying the current land owner. I guess it depends on the system used by each state. Some have that information digitized and the public can get an account to access it on the internet. NB-DNR has the entire provincial database at their finger tips. The aerial photo and stands overlays (2 of many) in their GIS sits on top of the Property boundary overlay, so they can see an 8 digit property number that is linked to owner information and that number can be poked into a real time database on the internet to see if it has changed ownership since the last GIS update.

We've come a long way baby.  ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Bill E

Appreciate the input from everyone.

So far I've talked with our county forester and state DNR staff.  Neither has any study activity going on and are perplexed about who might.  I guess other possibilities include the Forest Service or a local university.  There is some DNR land nearby so maybe someone was trying to use it and was lost???

I guess I'll make use of their work and measure current diameter for my own records.

One suggestion to people who operate programs like this:  If prior notice can't be given, leave behind a waterproof letter with information about the program and a contact person.

Bill


flip

You could leave one also.  Something short and sweet, call me if your're playing with my trees, people have known to get lead poisioning in this area ;)

Sincerely,
Your name
Timberking B-20, Hydraulics make me board quick

Pilot

As other have said, it sounds like a forest inventory plot.  When I worked on forest inventory, all the tags faced the center of the plot and there was a stake at plot center.  Tags were low on the tree, below stump height.  Nails without tags were at DBH for consistent measurement from one sampling to the next and would be on the uphill side of the tree without reference to plot center.  Seems like we marked the plot number somehow, but I don't remember; it's been more than 20 years since I worked on inventory and I only did it one year.  This was US Forest Service, so we didn't have land owners to contact.

tonich

Quote from: Bill E on June 26, 2007, 04:35:42 PM
I guess other possibilities include the .... local university. 

Ah!
This could be the agent – аn absent professor from the local university.
They might have performed inventory exercises with the students, trying to save a bit of money from transport to remote areas.  ;) ;D

Thank You Sponsors!