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How much power for a new shop?

Started by Crunchycon, May 27, 2007, 11:34:00 PM

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Crunchycon

I'm building a new house and shop and the electrician aksed me how much power I needed for my shop.
I thought a 200amp service with a 100amp sub panel would be enough. My biggest current draws have been a planer, jointer, table saw, and dust collector but I'm going to add a Logosol ph260. Single phase power is all that is avalible from my utility company.

sawguy21

That is probably the max you will have available without 3ph. Hope you will have pictures of the project.  ;D
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Crunchycon

I have not run the wires to the pole yet.
Could I / should I go bigger?


thecfarm

Get more than what you need now.I don't know anything about electrity,but I would get way more now than later.Probaly would cost another $500-$1000 now,I'm only guessing at this.This way 10 years down the road you won't be back on here saying I should of listened to the thecfarm.Just never know what might fall in your lap as a new tool to you.I try to buy things bigger than what I need and than later on I'm glad I did.Good luck.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

alsayyed

Crunchycon I have almost 9 outlets in my shop. Each outlet has 13 amps 220v. Beside the panel total amps are almost 60 amps or 80 amps. Beside I run welding machine on 20 amps and never had any problem.
Here is what I did for experiment.
I run the welding machine on 20 amps
I run an aircondition  on 20 amps
I run DeWalt planer on 13 amps
All these devices or the appliances that I have mentioned they run on the operate on the same time. I never had any breakage. If you are building the shop with 100amps circuit breaker I think you have enough power.
Other thing these appliances they not running on the same time all of them. You might run the table saw and dust collector, then they go off again.

In my final conclusion that you have enough power or amps.


low_48

 Consider the Logosol, a phase convertor if you get the 3 phase machine, 3 or 5hp dust collector, A/C?, all the lights, a radio or course, then the 5 hp air compressor kicks in. That's all by yourself. Then if you have help, add a table saw runing. Just some thoughts, I'm not great with electricity.

Crunchycon

I'm sure the 100amp sub panel can handle all the machines but I'm unsure about the phase converter.

I will probably put the lights on the main panel so if the machines start tripping breakers I won't be in the dark. :D

thecfarm

Hey Crunchycon,I just noticed you are a new member.My manners are better than that,welcome to the forum.This is a great place.You will enjoy it here.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

woodbeard

I run my shop and house off the same 100 amp service. The house is small, biggest power draw being the clothes dryer, but the shop has a planer and tablesaw, both 3hp as well as other stuff. I haven't noticed any problems, but I am planning on upgrading to 200 amp in the near future.

ronwood

Crunchycon,

Welcome to the forum!!

Ron
Sawing part time mostly urban logs -St. Louis/Warrenton, Mo.
LT40HG25 Woodmizer Sawmill
LX885 New Holland Skidsteer

firecord

Go with 200 amps to the house and 200 amps to the shop!  You can never have too much but later on you will find you have too little.  Coming back and adding will cost WAY more in the future,  than if you build it that way in the beginning. 

Crunchycon

Thanks for the welcom guys!

The funny thing is I am building a green house that is designed to use less energy. I'm sure I will get a few raised eyebrows when I ask for two 200 amp panels.

Tom

Not nearly as funny as the look you get when you get two 200 amp panels to go with one 200 amp service.


I tried to get a 200 amp service for the shop but they wouldn't give it to me.   They said I was allowed only one service.   I have a 200 amp service and a 200 amp box in the house.  I put a 100 amp box in the barn and a 100 amp box in the shop.  I can't run fast enough to keep enough going to strain the service.  My welder has to be at the barn or the shop and the same for the compressor and the planer.  I guess I could get into a hassle if I had a crew, but it's only me.  :)

JimBuis

I have a hundred year old house that I upgraded the service on  a year ago.  You should not be looking at this from the standpoint of only how many amps will you draw at any one time. You should also consider the issue of how many dedicated outlets you will want.  For example, if you will have a big compressor in the shop, you will want to have a circuit breaker in the box specifically for that with no other connections to the circuit. If you begin to apply this logic to all of your various machines that should have dedicated circuits, you will soon fill a 100 amp service panel and not have any room for expansion. Instead you want to go to a larger panel to have room for additional breakers in the future.

So yes, do the amperage calculations, but also figure out how many dedicated circuits you need, how much physical space they will use up in the box and how much space will be left over for future needs.

I put in a 400 amp service in my house with the idea of being able to build a shop in the future and having sufficient power available to supply it.

Jim
Jim Buis                             Peterson 10" WPF swingmill

Tom


scsmith42

Crunchycon - welcome to the forum!

Ditto Jim's comment.  I have 400A service in the house, a 100A service in the woodshop, and another 100A service in one of the garages.  The phase converter really creates a low voltage spike whenever I spin it up.

I'd go with at least 200A in your shop if you can - less strain on your appliances from the startup surges caused by your shop equipment.

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

firecord

I only put 100 amps in the shop, and regret it!  I plan to have a second service line added before I build the new house.  AEP said they will add the second meter for no charge.  They need the money.





srt

Here's something to think about.  We're finishing up a kitchen for the last of three brothers who've built or rebuilt big houses in the last three years.  It's been a nice run since we've all got to know each other, and the brothers have helped each other on their houss.  Anyway, back to the point.  One of the brothers and the dad are electricians.  Here's what they've done on each of the houses.  They've brought in a 400 amp service to a place out in their yard.  From the 400 amp meter base, they've run several 200 amp services (house, pole shed, another to the house...) Apparantly, a 400 amp meter base has more lugs on it from the factory so this can be done easier.  Another benefit is that primary cable (high voltage) is run all the way up to the transformer that's close to the meter base.  I don't think they run the big wires if you're only getting a 200 amp service.  The bigger the wires, the less the voltage drop , the less the heating of wires wasting energy.  All the services run from the 400 amp meter base don't have to be 200 amp, they can be 100 amp if that's what works for you. 

Caution.  I'm not an electrician, but have set through many hours of electrical training, worked for an electric company for a while, and wired my own house.  This gives me just enough knowledge and experience to be dangerous when giving advice.  Run this past a real "sparky" before you start buying parts....Hope this helps.

Crunchycon

The only parts I have on order is the underground conduit. The utility company had me get 3 1/4 inch. I can't imagine the wire size would be that much bigger for a 400 amps over 200 amps. I know the difference between a 12 gauge wire and an 18 gauge wire but I have no experience with service enterence cables. Any way I have a licenced "sparky" hooking everything up so I can't do any real damage.

OneWithWood

Crunch,
I am a firm believer of you can never have to much power.  Our house, which was just a basement when we bought it, came with a 200amp service.  When I built the workshop I had a separate service brought in and put a 200amp box in it with dedicated runs to the compressor and lift.  I split the shop into three zones for lighting, three zones for 110v outlets and three zones for 6 additional 60amp circuits.  I paid a premium running heavy guage wiring throughout the shop but overloads and voltage drops are not a limiting factor.  When I built my barn I put in a 200amp box and did a similar zone thing for lighting and 110v outlets. I have dedicated circuits for the kiln and each piece of equipment.  With the open rafters I did not need to put in extra circuits.  When I need another I simply run the wire for it.  Again I used wire one guage heavier than code required.  We also built a greenhouse and I put a 200amp service in there too.  I have room in that box to expand and run a 100 amp sub out to a storage building.  Each 200amp service is on a separate meter which helps with recordkeeping for our separate business ventures.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Warren

Crunch,  I also ditto Jim's comments regarding total number of circuits.  I have a 100 amp service in my barn.  Recently had to "shuffle" breakers in the box to be able to install a double pole breaker for a compressor.  Not allof the positions would accept a double pole breaker. 

While total current draw is important, also need to consider total FUTURE circuits.

Warren
LT40SHD42, Case 1845C,  Baker Edger ...  And still not near enough time in the day ...

Crunchycon

Sawguy21, I finally figured out how to post photos in my album.

Enjoy

beenthere

Crunchycon
Great photo's.
Now you can post them where they go, and tell us about that process. Like, would you do it again?  :)
With all that white, a pair of sunglasses when the sun is shining must be in order.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Crunchycon

Beenthere,

Sunglasses have to be worn even when the sun is not shining!

I will continue the disscusion about my shop/house in the alternative methods and solutions board.

Thanks to all who replied to my power question. I will go with the 400 amp service, 200 for shop 200 for home.

mur

Hi Crunchycon:

I went a 400 amp single phase service since I could not get 3 phase.  I have a Logosol PH260 and blower, running off an in total 39 HP 3 phase converter.  My kiln fans run off the converter too at the same time.  If I remember right, my single phase breaker going to the 3 Phase converter set-up is 150 Amp. 
I run another planer pre-thicknessing wood before the Logosol plus chop saws to end trim before and after into the Logosol.  So, 200 Amps into the shop should do you if you don't have too much else going on. 

Best advice I can give you - talk to your electrician and have him work it through for you.  Upgrading later is very expensive. 
Don't dream it, be it.

TexasTimbers

200 Amp is the minimum you should consider. Also, I don't think it has been mentioned, after you have wired your panel and are done, always run an empty conduit from the top of the panel up through the top plate and cap it off. Leave it completely empty. It should be at least 2".

It's for the additional circuits that you are certain you'll never need to add, that one day you will  certainly need to add. ;D.

The existing empty chaseway will make you feel like a genius later.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Trent

My shop has a 200 amp panel I got a good deal on (really don't need 200 amp). I feed it with 10 gauge wire. It is fed from a 30 amp breaker in the main panel inside the house. The 200 amp breaker in the shop is simply a switch, the protection, is the 30 amp inside. I can upgrade any time in the future to 60 or 100, by pulling bigger wire, and installing a bigger breaker in the house. It's been 10 years, and I still run the air compressor, and welder one at a time.   
Can't fish, can't hunt, don't care about sports. Love to build, machine, fabricate.      Trent Williams

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