Wood working/timber cutting shop

[ljmathias]

Been more or less of a lurker here for the past year or so but have finally made some progress on both sawing and getting ready to TF some workshops and barns... Got to see Frank Ladner's frame as it was going up and that got me excited enough to try on my own- just wish I had the time for a training workshop so I wouldn't make as many mistakes.

Posted some on the Katrina trees I have on my 50 acres- got some of the up, peeled what pines I could and stacked them in my 24X48 pole barn; just stacked the oaks up off the ground and hope they'll be alright.  Problem is I have a circa 1986 WM LT30 which is as far from hydraulic as you can get.  Can't even get parts sometimes, but somehow it keeps cutting- slow and sometimes a little wavy but I've managed to make a lot of boards and various size beams- 4X6, 6X6, 7X7, 8X8 and even a few 10 and 12 wides, combination of oak and pine.  Most have dried some (I know, I know: as Jim Rogers keeps admonishing us, "Build green!"  problem is I still work and time has to budgeted best I can for combinations of clearing downed trees, cutting what I can in between, and working toward a more functional integrated system).

What I'm (foolishly) trying to do is vertically integrate- all the way from getting the trees down (mostly on my land right now), bucking and peeling as needed, sawing into lumber and beams, and building with strict or mixed timber framing.  I'm classic ADD/HDAD (beat my son's score on his school test for dysfunction but we're neither on Adderol anymore, thank God) so I really thrive on doing lots of different things during the day and over weeks- keeps me interested and energetic (and at 58 four months after heart surgery to replace a valve, I need all the energizing I can get).

So at this stage I realized it was time to start getting organized.  I've got chain saws, wood working tools, mechanic tools, a Makita mortizer and beam saw, plus many more scattered over five buildings (my son and his family just moved from Maryland into our garage/carriage house while he builds so I've lost my many work and tool storage place).  Hence the need for a workshop that (for the first time in my life) will allow me to organize ALL my tools in one place plus do some productive work- hope springs eternal, as the saying goes.

In any event, finally got the monolithic slab poured yesterday: 36 by 17 for a 3 bay workshop based on plans I bought from Grand Oaks Timber Framing (at least I realized it was going too far to design it myself and draw the cutting diagrams...).  I'll try to get some photos next week and post them- won't be till week from Monday as I still have to do my "real" job to pay the bills.  Let me know if you all want to see the pictures and plans- I'll be in China but can add some details to overall layout and plans.  Would eventually like to teach or at least host TF workshops on our land- course that will have to wait till I get a really big TF lodge build (Wasn't it Newton that said, "A man's reach must exceed his grasp"?

Sure have learned a lot from you all- now it's time to start putting it to use.

Lon

[Dave Shepard]

Of course we want pictures! ;D We love pictures. I am planning a workshop as well, so many tools in the little garage, there is no room to work on anything.


Dave

[ljmathias]

 

So, lots of developments since last post- downloaded sketchup (Jim's suggestion?) and have started learning that; roughed out a general footprint layout for existing and proposed buildings at our place (50 acres we call Mathias Hollow Farms named after us, duh...); learned how to dummy down figures and photos to the right size; even created an album and got my footprint drawing uploaded.  Hope it shows up above- all I see is a link...

Anyway, the idea is this: house and carriage house that I built (lots of help on those) were done with normal stick frame.  Pole barn was made using treated phone poles, 2 stories high with half having a second floor, the other half open for equipment (and, it turned out, for storing peeled pine logs after Katrina). Two additions to the pole barn, first one to house existing mill (16 foot opening for an LT30, not quite wide enough, second for future "new" mill to take longer logs).  In progress is the 3 bay workshop that will be done with timbers I've cut over the last two years or am cutting now- lots of options there, pine, red oak, poplar, even a sweet gum or two and an occasional hickory that's checked and twisted.  Poured the footings and slab last Friday- wife is back home "watering" it twice a day and says it hasn't sprouted yet but she expects it to anyday now.  Soon as I get back next Tues, I'll start cutting for the bents and bays.  Last item shown above is my "dream barn:" 36 X 60 or in that size range for in-the-dry TF assembly, some lumber and beam storage, and working on equipment- tractors, trucks, end loader...

Does this seem reasonable for a working start if I get into this thing pretty much full time (other half of the 24 hour day)?  Thanks in advance for comments and I'll get some pictures of the farm and the buildings plus my stacks of logs and beams stored all over, in and around the buildings.

Lon

[ljmathias]

Sorry I haven't posted any pictures- we lost the cable for our digital camera and can't find a replacement, so either I make a cable (from something) or buy a new camera- wife hasn't agreed to that yet.

Anyway, despite lack of pictures, I am making pretty good progress for a first-time timber frame attempt.  Got the foundation framed up and poured- thicker than I had planned but my son was practicing with his brother's miniexcavator and got carried away with the depth of the footings.  Concrete finisher said he didn't think it was going anywhere anytime soon.

Managed to get two posts cut for bent 1, most of the plate for the even-numbered posts cut with dovetails and mortices almost finished, and started on the beam and braces for bent 1.  I wonder around between different parts rather than working consistently on just one post or beam- more fun for me that way, I guess.  In any event, here are some questions maybe you all can help with:

First, are there any tricks for cutting dovetail mortices?  Gets real tight down at the bottom in the sharp corner...

Second, I'm using a chain morticer, which leaves beautifully rounded sides at the bottom: any reason not to cut the tenons to match?  Seems easier to round the tenons than dig out the bottoms of the mortices, but that could just be me being lazy (and wanting to see this workshop going up a little faster).

Third, the top plates on the plans I have show the ends cut through; that is, the mortice is basically a slot in the end of the plate- any disadvantage to that?  I know Jim Rogers indicated not to do this- any reasons why and will it have too advers an effect on a small building like this (12 X 16 story-and-a-half in the middle bent, two open sheds on the sides at 12 X 16 but only 10 ft high and sloped up to 12).

Fourth, I need to put stairs in somewhere to access the center loft area which will become my home-away-from-home and office.  I'd thought of a five step up to a landing on the outside, landing leading to a door into the center with 8 steps up to the loft floor.  Looks like it will fit alright- just wondering if anyone has done anything like this and might have pictures/plans to show that would speed up my slow approach to this...

Thanks, and more later; I may just go buy a new camera and apologize after- how's that saying go again?

Lon

[manolo]

"Better to ask for forgiveness than for permission"

Anyway it should be much easier than that, what you probably need is just the
proper USB cable or, better yet, your camera might/should have some kind of
flashcard as storage medium. If you get a chep flash card reader to connect to
the computer you should be able to take the card off the camera and put it in
the reader.

But then again it looks like you *do* want a new camera

[ljmathias]

Pictures!  Finally got a cable modified to work, bought new batteries and the digital camera is brought back from the dead (darn!).  Took a few pictures and uploaded to make sure I've got the process down again...  Below is a view of the first bent (got excited and couldn't wait till I finished them all plus the rafters and purlins) and I'm working on the rest.



Had a picture of one of the dovetails up close but llost it somewhere... Anyway, below is the view from the "second floor to be" of the central part of the workshop- not as pretty as other views but it will be a good view to help me work and concentrate.


This is a view from the top of the bent towards the house (so I can keep an eye on what's going on while I work or visa versa).


Had a bunch more of my piles of peeled logs waiting for cutting and some of the lumber I've already cut, but lost them too.  I'll get more later; got to get back to work.

[Dave Shepard]

Thanks for the pictures, it's great to be able to see what's going on! Keep'em coming.


Dave

[ljmathias]

Couple more pictures of our place. First one shows a more complete view of the slab and first bents for the workshop plus various beams and braces in progress.  Rain has me worried now- last few years have been pretty dry in the summer (we got almost no rain for months after Katrina) but this year we seem to be back on our 90-90 days plus afternoon thunderstorms and showers.  This keeps things pretty wet and I have no place to work on or store the wood I'm using.  Any thoughts on warpage or degrade?


Next shot is closer view of a dovetail.  I use the chain mortiser to hog out the majority of the wood from two sides, then finish up with chisels.  Slowest part are the points of the dovetail on top- guess I need a chisel smaller than 1" to fit in better?  Any other thoughts on speeding up dovetails?


Last shot is up the slight hill from the creek toward the pole barn where I have all my tools and some of the trees-in-waiting stored.  The creek cuts our land in two and the bridge over is the lighter colored part in the middle distance.  About six years ago, we had a hurricane dump so much rain that our normally barely flowing creek turned into a raging torrent fifteen feet deep that washed out a bridge made of 16 X 16 creosote railroad timbers.  Pulled those all out and the sat for a couple years while I figured out (worked up the courage) to pour embankments to rebuild.  Ended up using 18 yards of concrete for that- hope they don't go anywhere again (at least during my lifetime).  Replaced the railroad timbers and the bridge is rock-solid again so I don't have to drive tractor and back-hoe over a makeshift bridge that always seemed on the verge...


Have a great weekend, you all, and do come back (as we say down here).

Lon

[ljmathias]

Seeing as how it's New Years Eve and I'm NOT going to make it till midnight, thought I might catch anyone interested up on barns and such here on our farm.  I posted a picture of the layout planned/in progress earlier showing the timber frame workshop I had started.  Well, what with colder weather coming on, I realized that I really needed to get the "big barn" up first so I'd have a place out of the cold and rain to work on the timber framing, so switched gears to target that (did I mention I have pretty advance case of ADD?).  So, had the foundation for the main enclosed portion poured a couple of weeks ago with professional finishers doing the finish: well worth the money to have a smooth and flat surface for future TF work- in the picture below, the to-be-enclosed space is surrounded by the 12 and 16' 6X6 and 2X6 posts and studs.  You can see the 16' door in the end of the barn and a 22' door in the north side wall where I'll have the sawmill next to for easy transfer of timbers into the barn (my LT40 only cuts 20' normally).



Couple of days ago, my eldest son and I took on the task of pouring one of the two 12X60' shed floors.  While we weren't nearly as fast or as accomplished as the professional crew, we did alright and it looks pretty good (plus saved us a bunch).  Started putting up the posts and beams that will help hold up the trusses that are supposed to be delivered next week sometime.  You can see the new slab on the left in the picture below.



Anyway, what I'd really like to get some feedback on is the use of a big JCB extendable forklift for raising the trusses into place.  A friend is willing to less us borrow his and he claims 8000 lb lift at 40' extension.  Haven't seen his yet, but he assures me it will clear the 16' uprights that I'll be securing some of the trusses to.  How easy do you all think it would be to lift a truss onto the forks, tie it in place securely and lift it up and over the posts while I drive into the 16' door to the other end to set from there?  Never used a forklift this big before so any comments or suggestions would be great.

Thanks, and Happy New Years to you all!

Lj

[Furby]

Shouldn't be any trouble at all!
What is the length of the trusses and are they standard factory built 2x trusses or timber frame trusses?

[Joel Eisner]

We went with the quick and easy method of placing our trusses using a 16 ft 2X10 as a boom attached to the front end loader.  This is 24 of 24 and it was ready to fall apart by then, but when we were finished we took it apart and used the wood on the barn. 8)

http://www.youtube.com/v/bpcJW1uJknE&rel=1&border=1

[beenthere]

After Joel's video finishes, there is one that shows up near it that is called "barn raisin", and it shows 4 or 5 guys walking the trusses up. Looks like it would work, along with your ideas of a crane or boom, or forklift.

[Furby]

It is VERY easy and fast to raise trusses from inside if you don't have any interior walls.
I can't belive how hard folks work at making the job even harder then it needs to be.
On my 28'x30' addition, I did all but two totally by myself, the last two my neighbor came home and insisted on helping.

Two guys do it fast and easy with lower pitch trusses.
Each take an end and pick it up upside down so that the peak is pointing to the ground.
Walk it through the door  to the back of the building.
Before hand you need to spike in some braces to the outside of the back wall.
12' 2x6's will do, make sure they stick up far enough to support the trusses and run far enough towards the ground so that they have some leverage against the trusses.
Back to the trusses, first guy walking in picks a corner and lifts his end up onto the wall.
Taller walls may require a ladder.
While the first guy holds his end in place, the second guy walks towards the other corner and lifts his end up and places it on the wall.
You will now have an upside down truss hanging from your walls.
Take a long 2x4 and swing the truss up to shoulder or head height and place the end of the 2x4 on the inside of the peak. A birds mouth on the end of the 2x4 helps.
In one swift movement using the 2x4, swing the truss upright and back into the braces you placed.
It's VERY important to do it in one fast movement all the way up, no stopping part way.
It helps to have someone on a ladder to catch the first one or two outside the end wall to keep from forcing to braces out.
Do this to all the trusses at once so they are stacked up.
Then if you have scaffolding, one or two guys can walk them out to the far end of the building and set them.
If you don't have scaffolding, one guy with a 2x4 holding the peak and one or two guiding it can slide the truss down the walls.

Can set all the trusses in an hour or so depending on how many you have and if you have scaffolding.

Yeah I know, clear as mud, but once you see it you'd understand.

[ljmathias]

Thanks for all the replies- first, the trusses are factory built 2X6 with 2X4 webs and metal connectors.  Problem is they are 54' long on 4' centers.  Yeah, I know 2' OC would be better but I'm running out of money and just need to get this barn up and covered so I can use it.  It's as much a means to end as an end itself: I really want to be doing timber frame construction but there's always something I need first to be able to do that.

Helped build my neighbors house and they had about the same size trusses on 2' centers.  They hired in a crane that could lift my truck for hoisting 400 lb trusses into place.  The reach on that crane was amazing, though, and that certainly simplified the work and made it a lot safer: 8 of us put 26 trusses up and braced in about 8 hours that day (almost killed some of us on a "cool" June Saturday).

Trying to avoid the cost of the crane if possible, so the JCB seems a workable alternative.  I build a bucket gin pole like Joel and am using that to lift into place the wall units for the southern shed exterior wall that the trusses will sit on on that side: truss engineer designed the trusses to have two-point support at 30' with 12' free-standing on either side but also suggested having one end anchored (three-point support) would be much more secure (we DO live in hurricane country here in southern Mississippi).  The other "shed" will be 12X60' and will be basically open for my sawmill and the 22' door to bring timbers inside with the FEL on my tractor or on a two-wheeled hand-powered transport device like others have described here.

So, back to the basic question: truss company says lifting 54' trusses shouldn't be attempted by hand and requires a strong-back and 4-point ties.  I'm thinking a strong-back mounted on the forks of the boom forklift with the bottom of the truss sitting on the forks and the ties to the strong-back.  Maybe build a frame out of 2X6 for the strong-back so that it extends out about 35' or so?  Anybody ever done anything like that?  Can't see Joel's approach working too well having basically a 2-point lift for such long trusses.

Thanks, all.

Lj

[ljmathias]

Been too long since I've updated on this, what with our timber framing workshop and all.  Anyway, been making some progress so I'll give you all the broad outline.

Did in fact hire a crane to put up the trusses on the big barn- they weighed in at 400 lbs or more so too heavy to safely move by hand what with the 54' length and all.  The JCB forklift was a bust- old and cranky, so it developed a major leak in the hydraulic system plus rear wheel steering went bust so driving was a rather exciting event: the rear wheels were locked at an angle to the frame which meant that you had to counter steer with the front wheels, kind of like a crab moving down the beach.  Wouldn't have been bad if I didn't have any trees, wood piles or other buildings to maneuver around.  Crane cost a bunch but with a crew of 8 or so willing if not able bodied helpers we were able to get all of them up and braced in a about 8 hours.  Went back and put a lot more bracing in later- X-braces on the ends and lateral, vertical, and sideways throughout.  Man, that took a lot of wood (which I bought so I could just "get 'er done" as they say).  Some pictures on the Southern chapter timber framing workshop thread if you're interested.

Real excitement  came when I started putting up the metal roofing- 28+ feet long and 26 gauge, which means a little more than I can (uncomfortably) carry or even drag around.  Built a "launcher" to help get it in place- looks like a slalom for a ski jump and definately temporary (built it as light as possible so I could move it around solo).  First five sheets went up great, what with help from my son and the neighbor- defiinitely a 2-3 man job.  Unfortunately, that was the last help I had for weeks so I rigged up a pully and hook system to help pull the metal sheets up the "launcher" and onto the roof.  Took a fair amount of time and effort but probably saved me several grand all told.  Final analysis: almost a month to get the building roof-tight.  Course, the rain still came in the gable ends some but most of the barn was now dry- too bad we didn't have her ready for the workshop- would have helped on two days for sure.

Also got most of the metal siding up about the same time- usually wore out after 4-5 sheets of metal on the roof, so I'd move to solid ground and work there some.  Speaking of solid ground- one of the nasty surpises was that there was no easy way to work up in the rafters to move the metal roofing into place.  I'm not one to balance on a 2X while I pull and push and twist 80 lbs of wind-blown metal into place.  Came up with a workable solution although it used up some more of my store-bought 2X4s:  nailed cross pieces on each truss at midpoint up (about 5' from bottom of the truss and 4' from the peak) and was able to run planking on this to stand on while I worked.  Had planned to take them all down when I was down but decided not to- never know when I might need to repair or replace some of the metal so just left it in place.

Already had the windows and doors roughed in so I just cut the siding metal to fit around and left it that way for now.  Did get the big sliding door at the gable end made and hung- what  a job that turned out to be!  Had planned on two 8X12' sliding doors opening to each side but foolishly forgot that I have already cemented the shed areas on both sides without roughing in the underground electrical.  Man, did I feel dumb when I figgered that one out!  Only solution was to bring the conduit to the front left of the barn which meant mounting the meter on the front also- hence, no sliding door on that side.  Built a one-piece (actually lots and lots of pieces but all glued and screwed together) door that was 12X16.6' to leave a little for wind brace on each side.  Heavy and awkward but did manage to enlist the help of my other son in getting it out of the barn and onto the track- came close to dropping it several times and almost crushed the boys hand once when the FEL jumped a little when I was raising the door into place- dangerous work for two people but I never could have done that one alone.  Finally got it up and in the track, put some flashing on in various places and metal siding to match the rest.  One of the worries I had with this door was that the grandsons would play with it as they got a littl older, maybe get it moving and slam it into the end-stop and out the end of the track or into someones body parts.  Won't happen- takes major effort to get that door moving. let me tell you, but at least it does move and I can open and close that end off now.  Another small step...

As always happens with me, ever time I take a break and start looking at how things are and could be, I conjure up new ideas and things to do and jump right in doing them (ADD again).  Drives my wife and sons crazy but they don't work with me much anyway, and it works for me- I jump around a lot but still manage to get stuff done.  Anyway, was sitting a bit while working on the last of the door siding when I began to visualize layout and components of the interior- what will go where, what areas will be used for what, and what "furniture" I'll need to make it work right.  Yeah, you guessed it- soon as I finished the sliding door that day, I started working on the interior (even though the gable ends still need siding).  Started really having fun at this part of the project- let me explain a little.

For over two years, I've had piles of wood sitting from Katrina.  Cut some but just recently got my LT40 hydraulic and that's made all the difference.  Started designing in my head a few workbenches and more sawhorses for use in the barn, and decided to pull some of the red oak out of the piles (hoping against hope that it hadn't completely rotted away).  Well, there's good news and bad news.  The bad is that most logs had roughly the outer third to half so soft and rotty that it was barely worth burning.  Good news is that I was able to salvage some pretty nice lumber from what was left, and with the LT40, things really flew.  First bench I built I use a pair of timber sawhorses I had been experimenting with as legs- these were made with 8X8 red oak or pine cut with a chain saw and screwed together with 10 or 12" fastwings.  These worked great in the pine but I had to pre-drill the oak or I could only drive the screws in about half way and that with an impact driver (which works great- never use a drill again for driving screws if I can help it).  Picture below shows the three timbers I used for "rafters" or "joists" whichever way you look at it, and the 2X8" red oak fresh cut from a Katrina log on top.  These are 48" long and laid sideways just to see how that works (and it works pretty good- already made a couple sawhorses on that bench).



Got more pictures of this from a different angle but they key elements are these: it's big and heavy and just the right height to work on (for me anyway: 32").  My grandsons dance and jump on it and it doesn't move at ALL!.  So much for this post.  I'll convert my other pictures to the right size and upload them and then write some more if you all want to hear about (and see) the other workbenches- going to make a passel of them (not a whack- don't need that many right now) to try out some ideas I have and to make space for doing different things in the barn.

Lj

[ljmathias]

Second installment, mostly pictures this time.  Below is the second bench I made yesterday- took me a couple hours to dig out the log, load it on the mill and cut it up to get some of the good stuff out, but that stuff still looks surprisingly good, almost like just logged lumber.  Once I had the lumber in hand, only took a few hours to cut and screw together (yeah, I cheated on this one- used 8" fastwings to hold everything together in the leg units- see the picture below).

Anyway, this bench is three feet wide and 8' long, and stands 32" high so i can work on stuff.  Right now the legs stand alone and the three planks are just laid in place- everything is still pretty "wet" and I want to be able to open it up occasionally so the various butt joints can air out some- keep mold and fungus out if possible.  I'm sure it will shrink some also so here's my problem: at what point do I go ahead and screw everything together (yeah, I used fastwings on this bench also, only 8 screws per set of legs) so they can't warp or twist any?  Maybe now?  and leave an airgap between the planks?  This still won't help the planks on leg unit joints- don't want mold and rot getting a head start there...

Lj

[ljmathias]

Amazing what you can see by looking (to paraphrase Yogi Berra) and while I was looking around the forum, found the general woodworking forum- neat stuff there!  So I started posting the stuff I'm doing on work benches there, under the "Workbench Wood" topic.  Just finished (planed and sanded but not oiled yet) a mortise and tenon leg assembly out of red oak that had been aged in-the-log after Katrina knocked it down.  Anyway, these benches are going to be a mainstay in both the big working barn and the timber frame workshop (still under construction).

Lj

[cuttingman423]

I can't belive how hard folks work at making the job even harder then it needs to be.

i have a friend that did it the way you mentioned Furby  but i'd have to think if someone  had machinery at their disposal  it may take longer  but would be safier and avoid possible back injuries and such    JMO