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Log settling

Started by okie, May 22, 2007, 04:36:36 PM

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okie

Hi, I am new here and hd a question or two. I am going to be building a piece en piece log house out of self milled "D" honey locust logs hopefully starting construction next month. I saw on an older post made by a member named Don P that log settling in milled logs can be brought down to near zero if you wanted a chinked look. I have read every log building book I could get my hands on and all addressed settling issues, I havent heard of how to avoid settling alltogether, so if anyone can tell me how this is accomplished I would be very much greatfull because I prefer the chinked look and was going to chink the outside more than necessary to get it. I decided on this type of construction because of the size logs needed. I can get all the honey locust I can handle for free, they are relatively strong and above average on decay resistance and stained are quite handsome. Through some effort and sweat on my part I will save about 8000 dollars on logs alone more depending on the logs, combine that in the fact that I am milling all my lumber for floor joists, partition walls, rafters, and subflooring/ decking I imagine I will be saving a chunk of dough. I have lots of energy and time but not lots of money. Thank yall for any thoughts on the settleing thing.
Striving to create a self sustaining homestead and lifestyle for my family and myself.

Dodgy Loner

There's a reason all of the books you've read address settling issues: it's going to happen, whether you like it or not.  I don't understand why so many newcomers try to find ways to avoid it.  It's not a problem, because over the centuries builders have devised ways to deal with it.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

beenthere

Stand the logs on end, and you won't get vertical settling. Otherwise.......probably will.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Don P

Welcome to the forum okie. That's a question that'll bring some responses  :D.
Remember shrinkage and settlement are two different things.
What I was proposing is to make the piece-en-piece a post and beam with log infill.
If the posts are about 8' tall and 8'-12' apart with a load supporting plate beam around the perimeter I think we have addressed settlement. The infill may then be anything. If it is wood it will shrink, but the building will not settle. If the infill is logs and they are attached together, then the stack will settle and a slip joint would be needed at the plate beam to infill lateral joint. If the logs are individually fastened to the posts then they will shrink but remain suspended in place. A chink joint between logs will absorb the shrinkage movement. This is not new, the openings in old chinkers were often solid height bucked and wood dowelled from buck into each log end, suspending each log in place with chinking in between. The corners in that style tended to drop, with a post and beam frame this won't happen.

This quick sketch might give you an idea of what I'm thinking.

jpgreen

Don-

That is exactly how I've wanted to build my structures.  The post and beam frame with roof dried in, then log infill.  That way you're out of the sun and out of weather deadlines.

But in the great state of California, there are seismic codes that require horizontal shear wall strength, that's normally 4x8 exterior sheathing nailed in place, which obviously puts a big dent in the log home look.

What I was thinking is why couldn't a guy put up the post and beam structure, then build the log walls on the outside of the posts and screw the logs into the posts to meet horizontal shear code?

Yes you would have the posts sticking out in the room, but I think that would be nice and wouldn't bother me at all. You could even notch the logs so the posts inset a few inches.

I would like to do the walls 6" wide x 8" tall square log with dovetailed ends and chinked. That way I can take advantage of those sized trees on the property and pre mill and cut everything on my Woodmizer. Put up the post and beam, and dried in roof, then install the dovetailed logs at my convenience.

Whacha think? ............ 8)
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

TW

Just some thoughts by an amateur:
Isn't it better to have a house that settles than one which does not stay tight? As I understand it the infill logs would be on ther own, only supported in the ends. Then nothing would prevent them from twisting or bending. In a traditional north european piece en piece construction the logs would be fitted to each other with either a kind of scribed long groove or tongue and groove. Then they would be pegged together with wooden pegs in both ends. The pegs prevents twisting efficiently. The roof weight compresses the infills and keep them tight even if the wood swells and contracts.
What will take the shear forces between the infill logs? Normally they would be taken up by the pegs. all horizontal loads become shear loads in the end just lika in a log wall, if I have understood it right..

Bolted on logs would need a lot of through bolts and through bolts are known for condensing water and for leaking heat.

I am no expert and may be wrong. Do not take this as bullying and destroying a new idea. I only test the idea just as I like to get my own ideas tested before I make the first prototype. Not my fault that I am born sceptical.

Jordan

Better to stack the logs inside the frame and screw them together course-to-course, creating a stiff element which can then be against the frame as a brace. It's a bit dicey from a pure SE standpoint (meaning it may be difficult to get a registered SE to agree with the method), but it will work better than screwing the logs to the frame. You're outside of all the prescriptive codes anyway, so if your AHJ is tight with the code, you're going to need a SE involved anyway.

okie

I appreciate yalls responses and understand what each of you are getting at.

Don P, That scetch is prettymuch what my plans consist of except I will have my posts set in the sill logs/ subfloor with a mortise and tenon and lag screwed. The wall infill panels will be pre made on site with a spline groove routered into both infill ends and the sides of the posts. The infill wall will be tipped up and a spline inserted in the spline groove, that would allow for infill settling. Once the infill log panels are in place, the top plate and tie beams and rafters are installed.
My posts are to be 8' apart center to center which will put my infall log panels 7' 8" long.
Thank Yall again.
Striving to create a self sustaining homestead and lifestyle for my family and myself.

Don P

This book would be a good read for anyone thinking of this method;
http://www.amazon.com/Craft-Modular-Post-Beam-affordably/dp/0881791318

There's a couple of pics of attachment using Timberlinx here;
http://www.timberlinx.com/gallery.php

okie

Don p, I have read that book about 6 times front to back, That is what made me want to go with this style of construction.
Striving to create a self sustaining homestead and lifestyle for my family and myself.

jpgreen

Your points are greatly appreciated.

I've gone over this with an engineer (infill between posts), and I don't believe there is any easy answer to meet California code without a very expensive engineered bolt system that runs verticle through the wall to the footer.

If I made dovetailed stacked logs to fit the outside of the post frame, notched for the posts, and then screwed into the posts as well as screwed course to course, there would be no large bolt holes, and I think would be hell for stout- strong.

Keep the comments comin'.......  ;D
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

jack

JP,
I should have looked carefully at your State of residence KALLIfornia,
I'm a fellow sufferer......Lovely state, but the regulations are a bit....well, being polite and a gentleman i will say....over done, and a means of income for the folks that do the inspections.   HAve you thot of contacting a engineer and asking them what THEY would approve?  and recommend?   You might be able to make some hybrid that will meet there demands.  Putting logic asside.  we did a job in  Marysville, next to the home of the SR-71's Beale AFB... well the inspector came out and gave us heck for everything we had accomplished..  was told by a neighbor, put two icechests out....one with soda, one with beer.... the next inspection we did, adn the beer dissapeared and the inspection went well, with a soda in one hand he told us that things looked GREAT!!
only once we forgot to stock beer, and we had a inspection PROBLEM.... never made that mistake again...

take care and good luck
Jack
GRAB life by the Belly fat and give it a twist!!!!!

Went from 5 employees to one, sorry to see a couple of them go.  Simplify life... building a totally solar run home, windmill pumps my water, and logs keep me warm.

jpgreen

Being a Sacramento native Jack, I know what you mean, BUT the whole country is going this way now.  It's not just the golden state anymore, and infact many states are getting far worse with fees and regulations..  ::)

I'm fortunate to have a great friend that's an engineer, and I will get it worked out.

I'm a big fan of the dovetails and post and beam timber framing (going timberlinx), so I think I'm going to pursure my idea of mating the both of them unless someone comes up with some good objections for not trying it.

The current building inspector in our county (Trinity) is really working with people.  The last guy was litterly chased out by gunpoint.  I'm not kiddin'..   :D
-95 Wood-Mizer LT40HD 27 Hp Kawasaki water cooled engine-

okie

Don P, Have you used the timberlinx connectors? I really like the looks of them if they are stout enough to do the trick like they say they are. I had no idea anything like that existed and am pretty excited at the notion of them because the whole joint making without compromising wood strength kind of spooks me, Hats off to you folks that do it .
Striving to create a self sustaining homestead and lifestyle for my family and myself.

Don P

Oh yeah, loads of experience... I think I've used 4.
Kevjay and Frank Ladner have used a number.

Plywood on the interior of several bays might meet shear requirements. I've also done several half log homes where the log siding and trim was up to 5" thick. This was applied over a typical 2x frame. I've been able to blind screw those so there were very few exposed fasteners and the frame can be sheathed in rated ply to meet shear requirements. Could have just as easily been a TF with stud and ply infill or diagonal sheathing over the frame and log siding.

Vertical log corners


Saddle notched corners



We kinda drifted from settling to lateral design here. That is an engineer's call but there are certainly frame systems that do it. Here's a couple of articles that might be of use to your engineer. They're for scribed full log walls but might have some useable info for those of you with high shear requirements.

How Log Buildings Resist Lateral Loads, by Tom Hahney, P.E.
International Log Builders Association
Log Building News #32
PO Box 775
Lumby, British Columbia V0E 2G0 Canada
Phone: (250) 547-8776
Fax: (250) 547-8775
Toll-free: 1-800-532-2900
E-mail: info@logassociation.org
Website: http://www.logassociation.org

Testing of Lateral Resistance of Handcrafted Log Walls - Phase I and II
Forintek Canada Corp. by Dr. Marjan Popovski
Project No. 3512/3512A
2665 East Mall
Vancouver, B.C.
Canada V6T 1W5
Phone: (604) 224-3221
Fax: (604) 222-5690
Website: http://www.forintek.ca/





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