Can I use Eastern Hornbeam (iron wood) for fence post?

[weimedog]

My extension agent told me it would be a good idea to remove as much as I can in the area's where my hard wood is trying to recover from an agressive cut 15 years ago...

So I have litterally tons of this stuff with shaggy bark, about 20-30 ft tall, 6-8 inches in diameter, Straight as an arrow, and really dense. Can I use it for fence post?? If it rots, is there any way to treat it to make it acceptable as a fence post alternative?

I also have a 10 acre stand of red pine....would that be a better option? Most of it is 10-18inches in diameter so I would have to slice it up...I want to remove that stand to expose a bunch of cherry we have below the pines.

I have to fence nearly 80 acres so if I could use materials of my farm it would help the cost of this project..

thanks in advance for the advice or direction on where to get the advice.

[DanG]

From what I understand, Hornbeam isn't rot resistant enough to use for posts, and is too dense to take treatment well.

The red pine is probably a better bet, if you can get it pressure treated.  Down here, it costs about a buck and a half to get a 8' 4x4 treated.  Fencing in 80 acres is and expensive and laborious proposition.  Using wood from your own land would certainly ease the pain a lot, especially if the trees have to come down anyway.

[Phorester]

If you had a naturally rot-resistant species, like locust, processing your own posts would be worth it.  But as Dang says hornbeam is too dense to take preservatives and will rot without them.  Pine will rot without preservatives.  But I know of no preservative available that an individual can apply himself.  (Maybe there is one I'm not familiar with) Creosote, which could simply be painted on the outside of wood, can no longer be used. 

Do some figuring on costs in your area to buy treated posts versus your time, labor, and expense of doing it yourself, if you can find a preservative you can apply.  I think you will find it more economnical to have a timber sale of the red pine and buy treated fence posts with that income rather than cutting and otherwise processing your own posts. Hornbeam makes good firewood, your size trees might not have to be split, and maybe you could generate income from that.

[thurlow]

You didn't ask, but unless your time is unlimited (to complete the project), I think you'd be much better off to buy metal "T" posts, except for the corner/brace posts.  I've put untold thousands of black locust and ERC in the ground and when labor was a lot cheaper, it was cost effective to use them.  I've still got a Shaver post driver and a hydraulic drive 3-point hitch digger, but it's been years since they were used.  You can drive a BUNCH of metal posts while you're cutting/splitting/digging a hole/tamping one wood post.

[WDH]

What you are referring too, I believe, is not hornbeam (Carpinus caroliniana) , but rather hophornbeam (Ostrya virginiana).  The hornbeam is called ironwood as a common name, but the bark is smooth, dark gray, and ridged (fluted) like the wood is showing off its muscles.  Another common name I have heard is muscle wood. 

On the other hand, hophornbeam (which is what you have from your description) is sometimes called ironwood because it is so hard and it is also called blue beech.  It has a brown scaly bark, easily rubbed off by hand.  The leaves of the two species are similar, but the bark is not.  While hard, neither hornbeam or hophornbeam is notably rot resistant.

It sounds like you have the hophornbeam from you description of the bark.   I have it on my place and it is a terrible understory pest.  Seeds prolifically in the understory, especially after fire.  It is not going to last a suitable time in the the ground as a post.

[bitternut]

He definitely has Eastern Hophornbeam. I am located not too far west of his location and I have lots of it in my woods also. We have both types of " ironwood " actually. We have a lesser amount of the smooth blueish barked variety which usually is referred to as muscle wood by a lot of people. It is also not rot resistant. Both types make great firewood but lousy fence posts.

[Phorester]

These names are easily mis-applied since they are so similiar.  The point though is that no matter which one, neither is good for fence posts.  You'd think something that hard would last forever.  I've had both species create sparks when cutting with a chainsaw.

[Dave Shepard]

I have hophornbeam on the farm, I couldn't imagine what you'd use it for. It gets up to 3-4" and dies. The bark holds the tree up for a while, but the wood on the inside is just powder.


Dave

[Dodgy Loner]

Hi Dave, you'll find that the size hophornbeam (or any other tree) can reach is heavily dependent on the site.  I've seen many hophornbeams on moist slopes near river bottoms more than 60 feet tall and 14" in diameter, and they've been know to get much larger.  I once sawed one 12" in DBH for lumber, and it was about like cutting up a boulder.  The wood itself is attractive, resembling maple or birch, but they are usually too small and tough to deal with.

[WDH]

How would it be for bowl turning?  Anyone turned any hophornbeam bowls?

[Dodgy Loner]

How would it be for bowl turning? Anyone turned any hophornbeam bowls?

I've never tried it, but I suspect it would.  Dense hardwoods polish up a lot better than the softer ones.

[WDH]

If you want to try it, I have some that are probably large enough for bowl stock.

[Dodgy Loner]

I'd love to give it a spin.  I'll turn anything once

[SPIKER]

This is a great topic;  I have the same type as described hophornbeam on my place and was thought growing up the smooth bark hornbeam was IRON WOOD and then the have the locals told me that the hophornbeam was iron wood I got confused quite well...  I know have to edit a few pictures on my site here to note that the ironwood is actually hophornbeam.

I have a lot of it too some of which is 12~18" DBH and 60' high...   Many of these are hollow inside though...   I was thinking same as above that they would make GREAT BEAMS if they could be treated for ground contact somehow...   (the ones that weren't hollow that was.!)  These DO make GREAT flowerpots. I take some of the hollowed out ones BURN the inside and Drill 1~1.5" holes all around it and plant Hens & Chicken plants in them (straw berries grew well in there too!)

thanks guys

Mark M

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12855/hophornbeam.jpg

[WDH]

If you ever thin out your woods, it will take over as an understory plant.  It has no real wildlife value, is marginal in size for lumber, and unfortunately, can be tough to control. 

[SPIKER]

trying to put pic in post like on the general gallery


mark

[WDH]

Mark, you hit the mark with that pic.  That is the shaggy villian itself..............

[treebucker]

My uncle told me that he cut many ironwood fence posts when he visited a farmer in Oklahoma. He said that was all the local farmers were using. Because of this story I made the mistake of cutting a few hornbeam fence post. They were solid and defect free.  I left them on the ground over the winter. When I came back they were covered in mushrooms. I've never seen wood that rotted so quickly. All of this was due to confusion over which one was truely ironwood. This was several years ago. So I decided to do some research.

I found out there are over 50 species world-wide that are called ironwood. The concenses is that hophornbeam is ironwood but that hornbeam is often mistakenly called ironwood. The pioneers used hophornbeam extensively. It was the preferred wood for wagon axles and wheel hubs. It was also used for tool handles.

I've seen plenty of hornbeam (blue beech, muscle wood) around here. But I can't seem to find any hophornbeam. I suppose it's rare in this neighborhood. I can still hear the story my dad repeated to me several times that he, his brothers, and my granddad (who was a logger) cut down an ironwood tree that measured 4' at the butt. My dad was rather proud of it. I have never questioned my uncle to find out what he considered ironwood.

[WDH]

Treebucker,

Very informative post.  It seems like any wood that is hard is called "ironwood" by the locals.

[treebucker]

Here is a very informative article on hophornbeam. 

I can only guess that hophornbeam fell out of favor because of the mechanization of woodworking. All who have tried to machine it have had trouble. Why else would a once prized wood now be considered a trash tree? I did not find any historical references to complaints about its working properties. This leads me to believe it wasn't especially hard to work with hand tools.  But this is an assumption.

I'm glad there are people here who have experience with its tendancy to rot quickly, otherwise the first time I had the opportunity I would have cut some for fence posts.  

[Furby]

One thing you are forgetting here is the vast climate differences between OK and KY.
The same type of wood may rot a lot slower in parts of OK due to the dryer weather at times.