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Solved: Viburnum Cassinoides

Started by Tom, June 29, 2001, 07:50:50 PM

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Tom

How about this one?    I was so startled to find this in my back yard I had to take a picture of it.  From a distance I thought it was something else but upon examination found that this plant is supposed to be common here....I just didn't know it.  It's used for jelly and wine but the pit kept me from eating but one.  It's not real sweet either.

Its leaves are serrated.

I am not 100 percent sure of my Id and will define the description further if you ask.

                                                  

Witherod Vibernum

RavioliKid

Gooseberry?
Choke cherry?
Gee, it looks like something my grandmother used to make jelly out of, but I can't think of it.


RavioliKid

Don P

It's got a crown and a blue berry but a blueberry has a smooth leaf. And I think you're too far south for even rabbiteye's.Shoot stumped again!

Tom

yep, that's what threw me.  I ran over there thinking I had some of the biggest Highbush Blueberries in the states and found a seed in the middle before I saw the leaf.  You'll get it.  I just hope you folks name it what I did to justify my answer. :-/

Gordon

Devils walking stick might be what your thinking but it's american alder. I figure if I keep guessing sooner or later I'll get one.;)

gordon

Roger_T

My guess would be either dwarf elder, or young virgina creeper.  Cannot find a reliable picture of either, just going by the descriptions ive been able to find.

Roger

Gordon

Roger, with the luck I've had so far guessing these it will end up being a Tupelo. Just waiting for the big decision to take place and see if were even close.
Gordon

CHARLIE

Well, the leaves look like  those from the Black Cherry tree, but the berries don't look like cherries. The berries look like they are from a Hawthorn but the leaves don't match up. I don't think this tree really exist 'cause it's not in my tree book.  :-/
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"

Tom

Gordon,

your so hot you're on fire.

If I have identified this properly then you are one letter off.

What do they say about a Miss 'n a mile? :)

Gordon

Ok lets try this again American Elder. I think that I've finally got one--maybe huh maybe?

Gordon

Tom

GORDON GOT ONE!!!!!!!!!
That is if I have ID'd it properly.  I have never noticed Elderberry here before but probably because I wasn't looking for it.  Elderberry jelly and Elderbeery....er...uh berry....wine.  I might just have to propagate some.  Have you every heard of an Elderberry farm?  I can see it now "pick-yer-own".  That would be a new one on the Internal Revenue service wouldn't it. Hehee, chasing the Elderberry wine makers around the swamp.  They're still kept pretty busy around here trying to keep track of all the other "tax free" beverages produced in the swamps.

Jeff

Woa woa WOA! Before I leave on vacation, we have elderberry all over up here, we make wine and jelly out of it.

What you are showing me  is definitly not what we know as elderberry. This thread is not solved!

See ya guys! I am off for a few days of nothing in paticular!
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Gordon

Well I give up on the id stuff :'(

So what is it then?

Man I can't get a break this week

Gordon

Tom

Gordon,
I don't know either.  Guess I'll have to take some to the County Agent and get them to tell me what it is..........Ha.
Gordon,
I still think it is American Elder.  I have seen some pictures of some other elders that don't look like this and I have a picture of American Elder that does look like this.  If it were a plant I was familiar with I'de believe the plant key but since  I'm not familiar with it there are doubts.  I'll find out though.

We have so much stuff blooming and growing down here that it's tempting to flood the site but I don't want it to turn into work.

Here is another shot.  My camera is hard to focus on short distances but you can see the serations if you look close.


Don P

Read Jeff's post. He is right it is not elderberry (which is blooming up here now,and is used in wine and jellies)
You guys are saying American Elder which I don't know. They may be two different plants? :-/

L. Wakefield

   What about serviceberry aka shadblow? The 2nd pic definitely looks like it, and the red berries on the first pic do. But the blue berries are all wrong for the serviceberry that I know. Might it be an import?              LW :-/
L. Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck Heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking

Don P

No way,LW. Don't quit Gordon we're all guessin now. Michelle guesses skimma (sp). I know one thing we're bringing field guides back after break! :D

swampwhiteoak

Tom, it would help me out if you'd post leaf arrangement.  Serviceberry would be simple, serrated and alternate.  Am. Elder would be compound, serrated, and opposite.  Give us a good leaf shot.

BTW, Elderberry = American Elder in common usage.  Some books refer to elderberry as the european version (Sambucus nigra as opposed to the native Sambucus canadensis)

Tom

I went back out to get another picture and am having problems getting it to be real sharp, but rather than reshoot it now I'll post what I've got. The leaves are serrated but I find many that are smooth edged.  They are opposite and seem to be simple, although many of these boughs make it look as if they are compound because the arrangements are so identical.

swampwhiteoak

Looks like a Euonymous to me.  Is it growing shrubby or more like a tree?  

Tom

Ok, I've got it.  :-[

I took a cutting of the plant to the Extension Agent's office almost knowing that there wouldn't be an agent there.  There never is and never has as long as I have been trying to use the office, going on 20 years now.  

I did get to talk to a Master Gardener who was holding down the fort.  These guys pay 50 dollars for a course and if they pass are allowed to volunteer to sit in the office once a month.  About all they can do is hand out brochures and wait for the agent. "I don't know when he'll be in. Tomorrow's the 4th you know so it will probably be Thursday...... or Friday......or..that's getting pretty close to the weekend so it may be next week."

I kinda figured I'd run into this kind of logic so I left the limb and the "maybe deertongue" and went to the State Forestry Dept. about  30 miles away.

The County Forester and Division Forester are old acquaintances of mine and I knew I would enjoy the visit if nothing else.

The County Forester had been promoted and left for another office.....no Larry....but the new guy, David Holly, jumped at the opportunity to key the plant.  Luckily I had cut a second limb.

David and Earl, a friend of mine who went with me on this mission, started keying the plant and the Division Forester, Bruce, who had seen me come in took me for a tour of the new building.

The new Forestry Building is on US-301 north of Baldwin in Cary State Forest.  It is a beautiful building and a beautiful setting.  They have built a new Equipment Barn also and work on all their fire fighting and fire line equipment there.

After about 45 minutes of "in depth" chatting where we resolved most of the political and forestry problems of N.E. Florida, David knocked on the door and he and Earl showed me that they had resolved the problem.  David had even printed out a picture from a web key that looked just like the second one I had posted on our site.

How humiliating.....I had looked at this plant in  a book I have here at the house and decided that it didn't match my plant.

David identified this plant as Viburnum Cassinoides.
http://www.canr.uconn.edu/plsci/mbrand/v/vibcas/vibcas1.html

Also known as Witherod Vibernum,Wild Raisin (Appalachian Tea) - Viburnum cassinoides

Gordon,  We were hitting all around it.  I have since found keys where American Elder and Viburnum cassinoides were referenced in the same sentence.  Both having similar growing areas and characteristics.  The biggest giveaway I have noticed is the fleshy stem that joins the fruit to the stem.  I am confused by the description of the smooth leaf when I found many leaves on my plant to have small, sharp serrations.

I declare this solved    ;D 8)

Don P

WOO-HOO! (and various other fishin hole sounds).
Did you ever see PT Barnam's mermaid? A small monkey head attached to a fish body, shirttail cousin to a jackalope. You were about to be accused. :D

All the way to zone 3...means most of us have walked right by it. Always amazes me how many plants we know only as "Hey You". Is a tea really made from it?

Tom

It sure made me happy and I'll bet Gordon will be glad to know it exists too.

I don't know about the tea but I'll bet a tea has been made.  Us "Southern" folks have been know to try and eat most anything that doesn't move too fast. ;D

Gordon

Tom some good footwork on that one. Thanks
Turned out to be alittle more difficult that first thought of I guess. I also need to get a couple more books at the house thats for sure.

Gordon

Tom

Yeah, me too Gordon.  We have a big used-book store
in the west side of Jacksonville and I am going to go over there and spend a day looking for keys.  It's hard for me to find one that I can understand because I really need pictures to verify what I have traced and it seems that they either are all pictures or all verbal keys.  The Verbal ones are more accurate if you trust your Botony knowledge but it's been a lo-o-ng time.  :)

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