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Marking a property line.

Started by Jeff, April 08, 2007, 07:22:19 PM

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Jeff

I plan on having a surveyor do this later this year, but the one I am in contact with in the area winters in California and may not be back until early summer.

I know where two of the steel pins are for the corners of my property. The northwest corner, and the northeast corner.  The north and west sides of the property are bordered by roads, the east line is marked by what I am told is an actual survey, although probably 7 or 8 years old, on the property to the east. It is marked with some flagged chunks of conduit and cedar saplings turned into stakes.  That leaves the property line to the south as an unknown. With this information, should I be able to get pretty close to finding and marking that back line?  Lou Kurtis across the road, says he has all the stuff for running it that I can use. I'm not sure of the equipment names, but I think its a compass on a tripod that is set to the correct declination for that area, and also some sort of line measuring device that clips to your belt.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

thecfarm

I know some of you are going to die when I say this,but my Father and me marked many of the old farm lines here.All that we had was a 500 foot rope and an axe.I could not walk in a straight line so my Father would lead and I would fellow.He would walk 500 feet and stop and I would put the end of the rope on a stick that he made sure I saw before he would walk off.Not the best way,but we measured off the piece that I have now and someone just had thier side surveyed and we missed it by 8 feet,not bad for 1½ miles.I gained,they lost land.Probaly if it was the other way they would be banging on my door.That is why it really should be surveyed if you have picky neigbors.My father was contacted often to find the lines of the land was bought and sold around here.Sometimes we would measure a piece and it would not come out right.We would have to start all over and do it again. All points HAVE to read what is on the deed.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Jeff

The purpose of marking my back line, isn't for trespass sake, its so as Ron Scott has said to me, "So we can manage to the edges".  Is that my tree or your tree? :)   (I hope its mine ;D)
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

thecfarm

You should be able to get the line in the back right.May take a few times if you never done it before.Lets say one side reads 4500 feet on one side,3500 on the front,6550 on the other side and the back is 5700.If this is what is wrote on the deed.From what I read you all ready know where 4 points are,correct?You should be able to get the back line easy,the way we use to do it.The key word here is you have to walk in a straight line and measure correctly.All you have to do is read the deed and found out how much footage is on that back line and measure it out.From what I understand you have to walk from one point to the next in a straight line and come out with 5700 feet with my example.All mearurements have to read what the deed calls for.Yes at times we would be a few feet off,but my Dad was real fussy when it came to doing a job right.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Corley5

Staff compass and a hip chain  :)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

sawguy21

With the two pins, you should be able to get an accurate survey with a transit and a surveyor's chain (tape). You will need a licensed surveyor for it to hold up in court in case of a dispute.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Larry

Well lets see...a new surveyor will show the existing pins as "found".  He will put new pins where he thinks your boundary is...may or may not coincide with the found pins.  Than you may want an second even third opinion...surveyors are an independent lot and seldom agree with each other.  And a little known fact...errors and omissions insurance is to high for most of em to carry.

Do as Corley5 suggested and save yourself a bunch of money.  Wouldn't take much to do one side of 20 acres.  Try to get your neighbor involved.  TSI shouldn't be any problem...timber harvest you may want to go a step further.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

thecfarm

The way that I read Jeff's post he IS going to get it surveyed,he just wants to know ABOUT where the line is now,not wait until early summer to get it surveyed. There is nothing legal about the way that I told him to do it.It will only get him a guess at the line.But if it was done correctly should be very close.I sure would not want to get any wood cut or do anything close to the line unless the other guy agrees and you can trust him on his word.I do know where all of my lines are,even though most have never been surveyed.All of the others landowners have had there lots cut off by going by my Fathers lines.I hope he is right.Times and people are differant than what they were 30 years ago.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Jeff

I drew a rough diagram of the property layout.



Here is the situation.

The red dot at the road corner is where the pin is. It also happens to be the section corner, so I doubt if a surveyor is going to mess with moving that.  As you can see by the diagram, caribou does not run directly east and west. My understanding is also the declination is 6° off of west.

The red dot to the south east is the other pin. It is not in the road, but on the opposite side of the ditch.

The east line is marked, but it is marked on through to the corner of the neighboring 80 acres, no corner is marked.

I am guessing, simply measuring in from the pin 660 feet on that line should give me that corner. I am also guessing that measuring 660 feet from the section corner to the north will give me the other corner, however, I dont know if the road runs parallel to the property or not, which seems if it didn't, would throw me off.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Jeff

The surveyor is licensed that I was going to use, and I was going to use him, one, because my new neighbor across the road recommended him, two, because he was cheap, estimate about 3 hundred to run the back line, Three, because he is the son of the man who owns the 80 to the east of me and he ran that line, and 4, because he is cheap. ;D

However, if I could run the line myself, being reasonably sure it is close, I would be satisfied with that as that backside of the land's main use, especially the back corner area will most probably be best suited as being left for bedding areas for deer as its used for that now.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Onthesauk

All the property on our road was marked off originally by a dairy farmer with a compass and pacing it off.  As a result, there have been at least 5 court cases over the years, we were involved in the last one.  We had a survey done before we bought, sent copies to all the neighbors and still got sued a couple of years later by some crazy city people.

Getting ready to have the survey crew back to flag my back line, just to make sure I don't cut anything too far back.  The rest of the corners and lines are still pretty clear.  On the original survey they marked corners and a stake 200' out each way.  That's fine in the open or the flat; doesn't help much up in the timber or hills.
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Larry

With the section corner on your property it should be a snap to survey...even with crude instruments and come up close.  Very carefully read your property description...sometimes the angle of the dangle is what gets ya.

With the surveyor being the neighbors son...$300 might be a bargain.

I feel the real problem with marking a line is the accuracy of the survey methods.  Accuracy increases drastically every few years...gps, lazers, and pc's.  I have one line that has been surveyed twice...ten foot difference...should I pay to get it surveyed a third time or take a chance and go to court?  In this case me and my present neighbor agree where the line is...where the old fence line stood.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Gary_C

What does the property description on the deed or abstract say? The distances for each side should be shown on the deed and or abstract.

One thing you should do is order topographic maps of the area from the USGS. Use their index and find your quadrangle and when you get that it will have contour lines and grid references that can be entered into a GPS. The most detailed one will be the 7.5 Minute Series (Topographic)

They also have aerial photos but I have such a slow connection that I have never explored those photos. You can order online or they list some resellers.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Jeff

This is how my description reads on the deed.

Parcel A:
The Northwest 1/4 of the Northwest 1/4 of the Northwest 1/4, Section 27, Town 42 North, Range 3 East.

Parcel B:
The Northeast 1/4 of the Northwest 1/4 of the Northwest 1/4, Section 27, Town 42 North, Range 3 East.

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Jeff

So I assume its a rectangle with 660 foot ends and 1320 foot sides with the corner at that pin in the road..  :)
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Jeff

Question:

If I knew that my North west corner pin is at Lat=46.0" 84.05' N  Is there a formula to figure out what the latitude is 660 feet south of that? ( I dont know that, but I do know its within a couple feet)
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Radar67

Jeff, your lat/lon 660 feet south of N46 00 00 W84 05 00 is N45 59 53.5 W84 05 00.0

I found this with my GPS software MAPSOURCE.

Stew

Is this the area?

"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

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Gary_C

If the road is 6 deg. off from the section line, since the sine of 6 deg is 0.1047, at 1320 feet, the difference from the center of the road to the section line would be 1320 x 0.1047 or 138.204 ft. At 660 feet it would be off 69.102 feet. In other words, if the section corner was in the center of the road and the road was 6 deg off from the line, at 1320 feet, your corner would be 138.204 ft from the center of the road. That looks to be a lot more than you show on your map.

You should check with the county engineer to see if they have a exact location and width of the road right of way, also a description of the utility right of way. It should included in the abstract if you have one although many county and township roads were not well documented in the past.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Jeff

Using your lat as the corner stew, This is what Comes up with on flashearth.  The center being your coordinate for  that corner.

http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=46.012767&lon=-84.050305&z=17.2&r=0&src=yh




I dont have an abstract. :-\

I'n not sure if the 6 degrees is the difference in the road, or the difference everything is from true North?
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Jeff

In stews map, you can see the slight northern pat of N. Caribou as it heads east. Looks like the whole section has a list. :)
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Radar67

In my map where Piesly intersects with N. Caribou, the line running to the northwest is a powerline. Is this your corner where the two roads intersect?

Stew
"A man's time is the most valuable gift he can give another." TOM

If he can cling to his Blackberry, I can cling to my guns... Me

This will kill you, that will kill you, heck...life will kill you, but you got to live it!

"The man who can comprehend the why, can create the how." SFC J

Gary_C

You can build your own abstract if you have the time and help from neighbors. Look at other abstracts of near by properties and find out where the descriptions excluded your property. Then go to the county courthouse and enlist the help from the county recorders office and find all entries after your property was separated from the others. If one person has owned it for many years, there should not be too many entries. It will take some time, but it is far cheaper than an abstract company.

The USGS maps do give the deviation from true north at the center of each map.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Jeff

Quote from: Radar67 on April 09, 2007, 12:21:13 AM
In my map where Piesly intersects with N. Caribou, the line running to the northwest is a powerline. Is this your corner where the two roads intersect?

Stew

Yep, thats it the pin is in the middle of the road.  It sure is easy to find me on a satellite map with that powerline going through it.

Gary, I can track the property back easily to 1937, the year the first powerline easement was  signed, another was signed in 1957, bot signed by the same "Single Man".  The property then changed hands to a Mr. Smith, from who's trust I bought it.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Sprucegum

If I understand the map correctly, you have 2 pins offset to the same side of Paisley road. You can set your transit(angle finder) on that south pin, sight on the north pin, turn it 90 degrees and establish your south boundary. You will need to cut some to get a line-of-sight to the East boundary. When you get there you can check the distance to Caribou and check that against GaryC's figuring  ;)

Establishing that line yourself will make it real easy (and maybe even cheaper!) for your surveyor to recheck it and approve it.

chet

Quote
Yep, thats it the pin is in the middle of the road. It sure is easy to find me on a satellite map with that powerline going through it.

Gary, I can track the property back easily to 1937, the year the first powerline easement was signed, another was signed in 1957, bot signed by the same "Single Man". The property then changed hands to a Mr. Smith, from who's trust I bought it.
Quote

And now an unnamed yooper seems ta be in possession of dem easements.  ;D
I am a true TREE HUGGER, if I didnt I would fall out!  chet the RETIRED arborist

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