Is there such a thing as "black oak"? `

[Kelvin]

Howdy,
Maybe this has already been asked somewhere but i'm terrible at search stuff.  We have a bunch of loggers refering to black oak as a lower grade variaty.  I don't see it in my tree book.  I guess it might be a type of Red oak?  What are its difference?  I was thinking it was just a darker red oak, so they call it "black oak" even though its really red?  They say the lumber is really dark.  Why would this species be considered less valuable?  They claim they are particularly big for some reason like they haven't been cut on purpose for a long time.  Any problems with this type of wood for woodworkers?  I'm in the market for large oak trees to quarter saw, so i need the rays to stand out good.  Some people say that certain oak trees are actually bad with regards to figure, is this possible?  Maybe this Black oak?
Thanks
kelvin

[beenthere]

There is a species of oak, Quercus velutina, that is Black Oak, and it belongs to the red oak group. 
Look here.
Black Oak

[Daren]

I'm in the market for large oak trees to quarter saw, so i need the rays to stand out good. 

I don't saw much oak period, but the few black oak I have I noticed very wide rays. The ones I got on a mixed free load were small and I had trouble figuring out at first what they were. I did some research and the bark looked like a pumpkin when it was skinned by the forks of the skidsteer, it was orange underneath. They were smaller like I said and not particularly nice, but the rays were unusually wide I though. If they were big I think 1/4 sawn would have made nice lumber. 

[Phorester]

Like a lot of color tree names, their origin may have originally referred to something on the tree, but not anything that's obvious to us these days.

You probably know that oak trees and oak wood are divided into two families, red oak and white oak.  Each product group includes several species.

Red oak, Quercus rubra,  usually grows in the better soils where it will outcompete black oak.  Because it captures the better soils, it grows into a taller, better formed tree than black.  It usually has less limbs, resulting in less knots and less taper to the trunk.  Black oak, Quercus velutina,  can't compete on the better soils, so it usually grows on poorer soils, grows slower than red oak, grows short and crooked, produces more limbs, has more trunk taper.  Because it grows on poorer soils it can also have more mineral stain than red oak, so it could produce darker wood in some situations. So it's considered inferior to red oak for lumber.

But after being sawn into lumber, both are usually lumped together as red oak for commercial sale.  But......, some buyers will separate them out due to the inferior quality of black oak. Depends on their markets for the products they will make out of the logs they buy.

[WDH]

There is a good deal of variability in the species in the red oak group, but many times, the lumber is indistinguishable if the species get mixed together.  Any oak in the red oak group on a poor site will produce wood that has more mineral streaks, more knots, more splitting/checking, and lower overall grade, even northern red oak, the king of the red oaks.  Black oak can produce very good red oak lumber on a good site with the right conditions.  The growing conditions where northern red oak competes the best produces the best red oak lumber, so it is preferred.

When William Bartram traveled through Georgia in the early 1700's, he described groves of black oak that were 10' in diameter (his book, Bartram's Travels, is a good read).  I bet those trees produced some fine lumber, but of course they are gone, and we don't see black oak like that anymore.

[Left Coast Chris]

Interesting.  Our Black Oak here in N. Calif. sounds similar.  It grows in the foot hills (up from the valley floor) from elevation 1000' or so to maybe 3000' or 4000' is smaller than the white valley oaks and is poorer formed often leaning with large crotches that are quite often low.   The bark is thiner, dark in color and the wood is darker than white oak.   We have very little red oak so I cannot compare.   Our black oaks do have more burls than other oaks often at ground level and sometimes up around the frist crotch. 

[Ron Scott]

Sawyer Bucks Black Oak Sawlogs. We harvest a lot of black oak in pure stands and in mixed oak stands. Its quality varies considerably depending upon the site as previously mentioned.



It is usually of poorer quality and form, limby, and of lesser sawlog value than northern red oak and usually sells at a lower stumpage value, but it is often mixed with northern red oak when cut.

[Mooseherder]

Some of the finer BBQ restaurants use Blackjack oak to fire their pits. ;)
You'll see it stacked outside. Gives a long hot fire. Don't know if this is the same as Black Oak. A friend of mine brought some Blackjack firewood down from North Florida for our gathering here a couple nights before daughters wedding.
We loved it. It's gone. :(

[solodan]

...  Our Black Oak here in N. Calif. sounds similar.  It grows in the foot hills (up from the valley floor) from elevation 1000' or so to maybe 3000' or 4000' is smaller than the white valley oaks

Yes, but every oak is smaller than the  valley oak, they are the largest oak in North America.

[Left Coast Chris]

Thanks Dan,  I thought the valley oaks were big because of the soil, water table and the fact that we don't cut them.   

Did you notice the very different bark appearance in the pic of the "Black Oak" in the thread from our Black Oak?    Much lighter, thicker bark.   

Do you ever saw any of the western black oak?

[WDH]

Black oak (Quercus velutina) and Blackjack oak (Quercus marylandica) are two separate species that do not look alike at all.  Very distinctly different.  Blackjack oak is even poorer in quality and grade that Black oak for lumber but it appears superior for cooking  ;D.

[Phorester]

"When William Bartram traveled through Georgia in the early 1700's, he described groves of black oak that were 10' in diameter ......"

Wonder if he got his diameter mixed up with his circumference?  ;D
(Referring to other discussions on this board)

[solodan]

 
I thought the valley oaks were big because of the soil, water table....

Yeah, I think you are right.

Quercus kelloggii, what we call black oak, has much darker bark, almost black. I have sawed some, but not much. It is real hard, the wood is real nice looking. It is smaller than the valley oak, but still can grow over 100' tall and 5' in diameter.

Farmer, have you sawn any? I'm sure you have valley oak around you and have sawn that, what about blue oak and live oak? I'm much to high in elevation for anything but the black oaks. Lots of them in the 3000' to 4000' foot elevation, but they also grow well throughout the transition zone, which is 3500' to 7500' feet here.  My place is at 4500'. most of the logs I saw are from the transition zone.

[Left Coast Chris]

So far I have only sawn the valley oak.  Quarter sawn it has great flecks, tiger stripes etc..  Better looking than White Oak in the stores.   I have a large stickered stack in its second year of air drying.  Have not stained or finished any yet except for a natural edge bowl.  Very nice.

I do want to try some blue and live oak some time.  Around here, the blue oak are mostly small but there are some decent live oaks.   Any time I see one down, it is instantly cut into fire wood.  Hope to get one in time.

[WDH]

Here is the passage from Bartram's Travels as he passed near Wrightsboro, Georgia near what he calls the north branch of the Little River.

"The ground is a perfectly level green plain, thinly planted by nature by the most stately forest trees, such as the gigantic black oak (q. tinctoria), liriodendron, juglans nigra, platanus, juglans exalta, fagus slyvatica, ulmus sylvatica, liquidambar styraciflua, whose mighty trunks, seemingly of an equal height, appeared like superb columns.  To keep within the bounds of truth and reality, in describing the magnitude and grandeur of these trees, would I fear, fail of credibility;  yet, I think I can assert, that many of the black oaks measured eight, nine, ten, and eleven feet in diameter five feet above the ground, as we measured several that were above 30 feet in girth, and from hence they ascend perfectly straight, with a gradual taper, forty or fifty feet to the limbs........."

A footnote goes on to say that the bark of this trees is used to make a yellow dye.  So this is the same black oak that we know as Quercus velutina.

[Tom]

He must not have discovered, by that time, that southern hardwoods are no good.  :P :D

[WDH]

Here is another interesting thing about Bartram's botanical travels in the 1700's.  He discovered a beautiful flowering tree in 1765 that he called Franklinia altamaha in honor of his friend Ben Franklin.  He collected some specimens and took them back to Philadelphia.  He returned once more and collected more specimens.  However, the tree was never seen in the wild again after 1803.  It still exists thanks to those plants the Bartram took with him to Philadelphia.  All Franklinias today have descended from those specimens that Bartram collected almost 350 years ago!  That to me is an amazing story, of course, I am a tree guy.  How cool would it be to find one after all these years.  Who knows, maybe I will if I keep looking ;D.

http://www.bartramsgarden.org/franklinia/

[WDH]

Tom,

:D :D :D :D :D

[rpg52]

Farmer 77 & Solodan - a separate conversation about our western oaks.  I had a ~30" dbh California Black Oak that I had sawn about 25 years ago.  It was leaning over where I was planning to build my house and had been burned on the uphill side.  Milled it into 2x6 and 2x8's.  After air drying for a couple years, I had a friend build the stairs in my home with it.  Beautiful wood, still. 
I've seen some Blue Oak milled - it's quite pretty, hard to find ones big enough to mill though.  There are actually 2 live oaks out here, Interior (mainly low elevation, interior valley).  Quercus wislizenii, pretty wood but really hard to dry, mostly small, but can get big if on good alluvial soil, checks badly.  You likely have some Farmer 77. 
Other one is widespread in the mountains (you likely have this one Solodan), Canyon Live Oak (Quercus chrysolepis, I think).  It is a member of the golden oak group, separate from the white or red oaks.  It has pretty wood, really tough, they used to use it for handles and wagon bodies. 
The other oak-relative found in the central Sierras and on the coast is Tanbark Oak, Lithocarpus densiflorus.  I've seen some interior paneling and a desk made from it - really beautiful wood. 
Haven't yet sawn any of them, but plan to primarily saw the Ca. Black Oak when I get my mill going.
Ray 

[solodan]

Ray there are some canyon live oaks around here, but in the lower elevations. What elevation are you at there in Georgetown, I'm guessing about 2500' you probably have lots. How bout California Bay? Have you milled any?

[Left Coast Chris]

Ray, its good to know about the live oak down here at the lower elevations.   We are on the valley floor by the river.  The live oaks are primairly on the fringe of the valley floor and usually in the red rockier soil we call "Shasta Loam" as a joke.  They can get up in size but that is not the norm.  Finding a straight one that is not a leaner would be a challenge.  Too bad it checks.  Sounds like it would be best to cut it in the winter while there is plenty of moisture in the air for slow drying.  Sounds like our black oak is the best to go after.  Ever saw any madrone?  I know cross grain tension is poor but it would be beautiful if it drys o.k.    I used to live in Trinity County as a kid and cut alot of it for fire wood.    Good luck on your mill.    Thanks for the info.

-- Chris --

[rpg52]

Solodan - Yeah, I'm about 2600', there is a fair amount of Canyon L.O., lots more Black Oak though.  The Calif. Bay just about peters out at this elevation.  There are some, but they are mostly small, almost shrubby.  We don't have any like you see over on the coast.  I'm at the transition between foothill veg (Blue Oak, etc.) and mixed conifer.  The south facing slope I live on is mostly Black Oak-Ponderosa Pine.  On north slopes there is Doug Fir, on ridges Sugar Pine.  Just up the hill a ways is Blodgett Forest, the field station for UC Berkeley school of Forestry.  When they harvest, they leave the oaks for firewood - that is primarily what I want to mill, whenever I finish with the adjustment phase on my mill.  (Maybe by the summer sometime?)

Farmer 77 - I have some Madrone, I hear it is really tough to dry too.  Kind of like manzanita I guess.  A friend who once lived up by Puget Sound said that an old timer told him that if you buried Madrone in the bay mud for a year or so it would saw and dry without the bad checking.  Sounds like it would be fun to try, if you lived close to the ocean.  Not really an option for me.  BTW, the really big Interior Live Oak I saw was in the valley near Chico.  Most of it in this area is too small, but there are occasionally some big ones near water.
Ray

[flip]

I've sawn a lot of BO here lately for customers and everyone thinks it is as good as or better than the RO they brought. :  Seemed to turn out more like pin oak and did not have that nice RO aroma.