Question for Peterson experts -- lumber & slabs from big logs

[JimBuis]

I want to have the capability to make lumber from the biggest trees in the midwest and some slabs as well. I want to have the trademark of being able to mill the largest trees.

I am a bit confused about the different frame sizes available for the WPF. I think I want the 10" model. Apparently it comes with the large frame and will mill logs up to 6 feet in diameter. There is a giant frame available that will handle up to 7 1/2 feet. However, it seems that you can only use the clip on slabber with the large frame and not the giant frame. Is that right?

What are the pros and cons of having the large frame versus the giant frame?

Is it easier to setup a WPF with low/low tracks rather than the high/low tracks? I want to have a mill that I can setup by myself when necessary.

Am I correct that by choosing an ATS over the WPF you are then restricted to smaller logs, 4 feet maximum?

Do some of you have techniques that you use to mill logs with a Peterson that exceed your mill's maximum capacity?

Thanks,
Jim

[NZJake]

In truth, the ATS can cut as big as you want, you simply chock it up using beams. It just means you have to slide the frame sideways as you move accross (logs over 1.8m).

The depth to the blade from the bottom of the tracks is 8" or 10" depending on the model. The ATS will cut a 1.8m log (standard) widthways, 1.2m vertical, to get your 1.8m vertical capacity, just extend the uprights by chalking the corners.

[Ianab]

Is it easier to setup a WPF with low/low tracks rather than the high/low tracks? I want to have a mill that I can setup by myself when necessary.

I guess the WPF lo-lo is about the easiest setup, but all the mills can be set up by one guy. Just a few more steps on some of the other configurations.

The lo-lo would normally be used when you are setting up the mill around a big log. If it's really big you would be blocking it up like Jakes pic. The Hi-lo setup is when you have a stack of smaller logs that you want to saw. You set up so you can roll each log under the Hi rail. I think with the basic WPF you get lo-lo, but the Hi-lo option lets you use both?

The large frames just let you cut bigger logs... disadvantage... they are bigger, heavier, less portable and cost more.

Cheers

Ian

[Captain]

Jim, good questions, let me see if I can clear things up a little.

WPFs
6" and 8" come with the "standard" frame, or 4' diameter capability
6" and 8" have optional large frame capability, 6' diameter capability.
10" mills have the large frame standard, but it cuts only about 5'8" diameter due to larger blade and center unit.
Giant frames are not slabber capable, but I could probably build you one.  The challenge, in that length, is bar sag.  The bar would have to be custom.

All ATSs are equivalent to the "large frame" options above.

My personal opinion is that the 10" mill is too big to push around all of the time for the additional 2" of cut.  (having said that, if 10" is something you cut all of the time, I would buy a 10" instead of double cutting everything) Same with the large frame 8", much heavier than the standard size 8" frame.  The giant frame, forget it.  WAAAAY too heavy to push around for the 7.5 ft capacity.  No where near as stable as the smaller frames.

It is no more diffucult to setup the high track than it is the low track.  Just 2 more end uprights, and a middle support.  An additional 3 minutes at best.  I setup lo-lo when going to cut that one big log for someone, and the mill will be broken down immediately after.  Otherwise, you are shovelling sawdust ALL OF THE TIME if you use lo-lo for everything.

Jake did a great job explaining the oversize log techniques.  The same can be done with a WPF, but not as easily.

My mill is a standard frame 8".  I have an extra large frame that I can drop the center unit into to cut large logs.  I like the smaller frame much better at the end of the day 

Captain

[JimBuis]

Thank you gentlemen! Approximately how much weight difference is there between the 8" carriage and the 10"? Other than the difference in carriage weight, is there a lot of difference in the physical effort it takes to operate the two?

I also have some questions about the other options that are available. Some of the individual items are not that expensive, but when you add up some of them the cost becomes significant. For example, when it comes to the blade options, does it make sense to get both of these?

Upgrade 8" or 10" Standard Blade to run Strobe Knives for cleaner cutting
Planer Blade w/Knives for finishing slabs, wide boards, etc.

Regarding the ATS to WPF comparison, if the 3 to 4 thousand dollar difference in price, after options are added, is set aside, and in the context I have described above, are there significant reasons to pick one over the other? It seems the ATS is more portable for those situations when a mill has to be carried into a difficult location, that greater portability would not seem to apply in the urban setting. Is the ATS better suited to milling large diameter logs if the operator is willing to raise it up on blocks when necessary?

I am sorry for the detailed questions I am trying to formulate here. These are things I have been trying to formulate questions about for several weeks now. As the summer gets closer and my return to the States approaches, I am trying to focus myself on buying a mill. This purchase may well be a once in a lifetime deal for me unless milling turns into a very successful business.

Thank you one and all,
Jim

[Captain]

Jim, suffice it to say that the weight of a standard 8" to a standard 10" is significant.  Add the fact the at the 10" has a .030" larger kerf, and it flat out saws harder than the 8".

Where productivity is a concern, I recommend a WPF.

Where remote transport is a concern, I recommend an ATS.

When sawing significant amounts alone, I recommend a WPF with an electric winch upgrade.

In actuality, the WPF breaks down into less pieces with shorter rail sections than the ATS.  (the ATS has 19'6" rail sections.) The WPF can be further broken down in about 5 min to be as portable as the ATS.  It is the additional side and cross pieces on the WPF that make it harder to get into wooded areas.  Just take them off when necessary.

Strobe knives make blades push much harder and in my experience are not much better than commercially tipped blades.  All of Peterson's and my blades are strobe capable.  We can add them to any blade with strobe knife slots here.

CRAIG

[Ianab]

Upgrade 8" or 10" Standard Blade to run Strobe Knives for cleaner cutting
Planer Blade w/Knives for finishing slabs, wide boards, etc.

The standard cut is pretty clean, remember it's rough sawn timber you are cutting. It's going to have to be planed after it dries anyway.

For finishing slabs the planer works well, but it's too expensive for me  ;)
I run my big Makita router in a wooden frame mounted on the mill to achieve the same thing, just takes a bit longer. A 24hp router with a 10" cut is going to do the job faster than 3hp with a 2" cut. If you are going to be doing a lot of slabs the planer blade would be worth it, but it's a simple bolt-on you can buy later if need be.

Cheers

Ian

[Part_Timer]

Jim,


I'm not an expert by any means but I'll put my .02 in if you don't mind.

First off when you get back come on over and run my ATS for yourself and see how you like it.  Like you said it's a big investment, might as well run one before jumping in.  Your welcome any time.

I don't have the 19' rails.  I bought mine with 2 13 footers that bolt together.  It makes it nice for transporting around.  It's a no cost option, you just ask for the 4x4 rail system.  The only draw back is that I have to use my center supports when cutting logs 12' and longer.  If you don't they will sag and give you a thick spot in the middle of the board.  It's worth it to me because I hike mine into the woods a lot and like the shorter pieces, they weigh less and don't get caught in the trees as easy.

I've had days of 15" logs and wished I had the standard frame WPF just because it would make cutting things so much faster.  But I've had 48-59" logs and was darn glad I had the ATS.  I think it's a grass is greener thing.  cinder blocks work well for cribbing.




Husband stopped by the house when he and Layla were here in the states and he showed me how to set the mill up so I didn't have to make the trip back down to size and come back.  I don't know why I never though of it but it saves me a lot of trips down and back now and sure speeds things up when you have lots of smaller logs.

Burlkraft was kind enough to bring his slabber down for the demo day and we cut some nice white oak slabs.  It works very well and makes a nice cut with out a lot of effort.  Well not a lot of effort untill you have to move the slabs.  32" x 2 1/2" x 14' white oak.  I was very glad Steve and Zac were there.  Those slabs have since been cut down to 7' long for easy storage in the shop.


You can dial the cut in on these mills to make it very smooth.  Take a little extra time setting things up and you'll be very happy.  I'd like to have a planer blade but it's just out of reach at this time.  I set the slabs back up on saw horses when they are ready and dress them with the micro kerf, it works well enough to finish off with a belt sander.

Sorry this got so long winded but I hope it helped.  I'll just end it with the fact I've never felt under gunned with the ATS.

Tom

[Captain]

Jim, one more clarification on the slabber in the giant frame.  You can use a slabber, but will be limited to the 6' width.

Captain

[JimBuis]

Parttimer,
I do appreciate your input. Relative to my experience level, you are a Peterson expert. I have never seen a Peterson in person.

Captain,
Thank you for that input on the slabber. My understanding was that the slabbing attachment CANNOT be used on the giant frame. The 6' limitation would not be much of a limitation in my mind. I bet a 6' wide slab would be heavy.

Thanks,
Jim

[Captain]

Jim, I'm sure the slabber can be used in the giant frame.  I'm certain mine can.

Captain

[Nate Surveyor]

I bought a used one. It had alot of problems. So, I entered the Sawmill world, with a mill that needed 39 adjustments, and some parts, and had some overtensioned blades. What I'm saying is that it would have been easier to start with a mill running right!

Also, the newer mills are designed a little better than mine.

All said, I was up to the task of straightening out this mill. I'm still not done yet. If you are not experienced with mechanical things, buying either used THAT IS WORKING PERFECTLY, or new is really a good idea. The later innovations are that the center unit is a solid cast unit, and I do know that mine flexes some. I plan to have it welded and upgraded with gussets soon.

Nate

[JimBuis]

Thank you gentlemen for the information so far.

Ianab, my reference to the "strobe knives for cleaner cutting" was a quote from the Peterson literature. I know we are talking about rough cut lumber. However, the Peterson literature and site allude to their mills as cutting a bit cleaner and smoother than some other mills. With that background, I was wondering if the strobe knives are a good investment or not. I have been reading everything on the forum, all the information on the Peterson site along with all of their literature and movies for two years now. It still leaves some unanswered questions around the fringes.

I am looking at investing as much as $35,000 US to get the best mill for what I want to do and so far I am convinced that a Peterson is the route I want to go. Having said that though, I don't want to waste money on some unnecessary options. If I can save a couple of thousand on the mill, I might be able to buy a truck or trailer to do some hauling with.

I know the WPF is built for higher production than the ATS. I was just reviewing the Peterson literature again and the production numbers for the ATS are not that much lower than the WPF. Is an ATS really capable of something on the order of 75% of the production per hour as the WPF? If it is, I am not so sure the WPF is worth the extra money. I like the idea of a single point of adjustment for blade height on the WPF and the option of the electric winch, but is it worth the extra cost?

Some of these questions may not have clear cut answers, but I'd appreciate hearing knowledgeable opinions nonetheless. Knowledgeable opinions will help to balance my wavering decision making.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing,
Jim

[Fla._Deadheader]

From my experiences, with the WPF, an electric winch, up-down, would be the best "extra". Walking around the mill to adjust for a drop, is a pain.

I use mine on very uneven ground. That causes the mill to settle a little, in places, and the blade "Scuffs" the board, leaving saw marks, besides sawing inconsistent thickness.

  It is entirely possible to set up, but, I can't do it alone, in 15 minutes  : : :

  1 GOOD helper, and you will be very tired at the end of a day, sawing GOOD logs.

  Tension in a log, will pinch the blade, or cause blade scuff, leaving saw marks.

  I have the high-low, setup. Never used the high part. I put bunks for smaller logs, both outside the track, and inside, notched, and simply roll the logs over the track onto the notches. Never REALLY had a need to "Dog" the logs.

  Big logs, set up around them and get as level as possible.

  I bought mine used. LOTS less than new, and I had NO experienced help, once I got to Costa Rica with it. You will have PLENTY of help and support getting the mill running well.

  I have sawn several table slabs, by turning the bottom slab over, and a VERY small adjustment lets the blade line up plenty close for finisning with a belt sander, after the slab dries.

  Ya GOTTA remember, they are NOT planer mills, just take boards out of a round log  : ;D ;D

[Part_Timer]

Jim

There is another option.  You can buy an ATS then if you decide you need more production than your getting you can get a frame to drop your ATS center unit into and make it a WPF.

realistically by myself I can run about 125-150bf an hour.  That is with good logs and stacking the boards neatly on the trailer and stacking the slabs up in a neat pile for cutting up later.  The smaller or lower the log grade the slower things get.  I have run as high as 300bf an hour by myself but have run around 60-75bf also.  It just depends.  Help is always a blessing.  We ( me and a tailman) can run steady at 250bf an hour with good logs and not get to tired but we have pushed a bit over 500bf an hour on the big logs where your not handeling logs all the time.  We have run higher than that but I had 3 guys helping and we were cutting 4x8x16'.

Production on an ATS is all about not making anymore trips up and down the frame than you have to.    Slab pile is on the right side of the rails.  Trailer is forward and left of the rails and log pile.  Sizing dials are on the far end and facing away so when I finish the cut I grab the board and set it on the trailer, turn around drop the center unit and start cutting agian.  That way it saves a trip back down to remove the board and size the mill. Milling with 2 my set up is a bit different.

[Burlkraft]

I am not so sure the WPF is worth the extra money. I like the idea of a single point of adjustment for blade height on the WPF and the option of the electric winch, but is it worth the extra cost?

Jim,

I usually saw by myself and day of sawing good logs on my ATS is a pretty tiring day, let alone any crooked tension logs.. >:( >:(
Single point adjustment and an electric winch would be a real energy saver and to me well worth the investment. Running that carriage up and down in the morning is a bunch easier than about 3:00 in the afternoon... ;D ;D ;D...In my opinion...but I'm kinda old too... :D :D :D

[Captain]

The WPF with e-winch is absolutely worth the extra dollars if you intend to try to make money regularly with the sawmill.  If you're just in it for a hobby, or a very part time business, the ATS does just fine.

Captain

[Snag]

Hi Jim,  Just wanted to take a minute and add my 2 cents.  I was in the same boat as you when I decided I was going to buy a Peterson.  What I did was let the experts guide me with their opinions much in the same way you are.  My first conversation was with Chris Browne who was nice enough to have a lengthy conversation with me regarding their mills.  He did this even though he was on vacation and his family was waiting for him to head to the beach.  My next conversation was with Captain.  I was honest with him that I really didnt know which mill to buy.  My main reason for buying the mill I did was due to one simple question I asked him.  I said, "What mill do you run and what options do you have on yours?".  Of course he also explained why he went with his choices in detail, but my reasoning was, if this expert on the mills is using this particular setup, it must be for a reason.  He didnt have the biggest model or every option available.  Just the ones that made sense.  I ended up buying the same setup: 8" wpf with hi/lo, electric winch and weatherboard attachment (and thank god he had me get extra water jugs) with 27hp kohler.  I wouldnt swap it for any other mill I have seen.  I, unlike some of the other operators here, use the hi/lo most of the time and after using the electric winch would never be without the single point adjustment. Anyway, just my experience.  Hope you enjoy whatever model you choose.  Each one is a nice piece of equipment.

[Nate Surveyor]

Snag is right.

N

[Handy Andy]

  I know you guys are talking about swing mills here, but do you realize that if you are really going go spend 35000, you could get a Cook mill with a 51 HP Diesel?  Of course you would be limited to a measly 36" dia log by about 20'.  And that's brand new. 

[JimBuis]

  I know you guys are talking about swing mills here, but do you realize that if you are really going go spend 35000, you could get a Cook mill with a 51 HP Diesel?  Of course you would be limited to a measly 36" dia log by about 20'.  And that's brand new. 

My goal, as stated in my original post, is to be equipped to do urban logging. I know the big mills with all the bells and whistles are wonderful, but they do not fit into my plan. If I can't take a mill through a pedestrian gate into a fenced backyard, I don't want it no matter how wonderful it may be.

My remark about my total budget of about $35,000 is for everything, not just a mill. I don't have a truck or trailer of any description. No chainsaw. Nothing.  Having a high dollar portable mill that takes a good truck to pull it down the road is not in my plan at all.

Thank you all for your explanations of the technical aspects of Peterson mills. That is precisely the information I am looking for. I suppose I may reconsider getting an 8" rather than 10" to keep the weight down as well as ease of operation. If I make that choice, it looks like there are some used mills around. I have plenty to think about over the next month or two.

Thank you,
Jim