More Jobs lost to cheap foreign labor.

[SwampDonkey]

Greenbrier has laid off it's 380 employees and closed it's welding plant for good in Trenton N.S. Some have worked in the plant 35 years. The plant manufactures rail cars. The company has moved to Mexico where welders are paid $3-$4 an hour. The company claimed the plant has been loosing money the last 2 years, do to the high Canadian dollar. One worker said 'we are no longer the Mexican labor, the company is headed to Mexico.'

[jon12345]

Then the mexicans come here and take a lot of our construction labor and meat packing plant jobs  :-\ I guess this saves them the trouble of being illegal.

[Fraxinus]

A friend who is a carpenter just got back from a vacation in Mexico.  He watched the people there working on road construction and building construction.  He said there were a lot of picks and shovels.  No compressors and nail guns but lots of old fashioned hammers and hand saws.  Maybe that's why so many of them are named Manuel.

[Larry]

SD, is that bad or good?

I would imagine the rail cars get built at much lower cost...which would mean BN railroad won't increase there prices for hauling...which means more dollars remain in my pocket...maybe.

But the 380 workers...can they find work in jobs requiring a higher skill level?  Possibly more money?  Is the government helping to retrain?

It's a world economy anymore...and I hold no grudge against Mexicans, Chinese, or whoever improving there living standard.  Last I knew those folks also had to eat.

[squack]

If the mexicans are such great worker's why do they need to come here for job's. If there work force is so great why is drug's there bigest export to the USA. With all the joib's that have gone south why not stay in your own country and work to help make it better ?

[Furby]

People there out number jobs.......... same as what is slowly happening in the US.

[olyman]

personally--i see it as management all across the us and canada getting exceedingly greedy--you dont see management taking any pay cuts do ya???  but they sure get plenty of perks--and umbrella clauses---but its still labors EXCEEDINGLY high pay---------------------------right--

[Furby]

You are right!
But it's more then management....... it's the folks (self included) that like cheap goods as well.

[Corley5]

I was in Wal Mart today and happened to notice the prices of bicycles.  They are considerably less than what they cost when I was a kid thinking about a new bike.  I don't like the Chinese made stuff but it makes a dollar go farther  :

[Furby]

Yes it does, but it keeps the cycle going and expanding.
Starts out you've got a pretty good job and make a decent living but try to save a few bucks here and there.
The companies see they can make more profit by producing the items a little cheaper via this or that.
Price comes down, their profit goes up, and they want more as do the consumer.
Little ways down the road, consumers are still trying to save some $ and the companies are looking for even more $ so they decide to either buy parts or products even cheaper via international means.
Some folks lose their jobs and NEED to cut their costs so they buy the cheapest they can.
As the job loss continues, the cheap stuff sells better and better as no one can afford to pay more.
Cycle grows and things get worse until there is a collapse.
I think we are growing closer to the collapse every day.

[Corley5]

Yup, it's a viscious cycle that we're all a part of

[Don_Papenburg]

Heard yesterday that Hersheys is moveing the reeses peanut butter cup and one other candy to a plant in Mexico.  See the problem is that when they move south of the border they do not comply with enviromental laws OSHA regs or bother to pay the employees a better wage.   
What needs to happen is the "represenatives" in DC needs to pass a law that makes them comply with our labor and enviromental laws or the products cannot be imported into the US.
Brazil has a law that if you wish to sell machinenery there it has to be 80% manufactured in
brazil .    We can do it .

[Ron Wenrich]

Hershey shut down its Smithville plant in Canada - 500 jobs lost.  They are going to eliminate 600 jobs at the Hershey main plant and 250 jobs of a 900 man workforce at Reese's .  They are going to try to do it through early retirement.  There are still another 1000 jobs that are going to be cut somewhere in the US at the Hershey operations.

The biggest problem with manufacturing jobs moving is the collateral damage it causes.  There will be a lesser amount of milk needed, and a whole lot less trucking.  Several Mom & Pop shops that rely on those workers are looking at some bleak times.  Not to mention the loss of payroll taxes to both the local and state governments.  The average pay at Hershey is $18/hr.  If they find a job it will be for ???

Harley Davidson is another plant that narrowly escaped this year due to a strike.  The strike was over health benefits and how the workers are going to have to pay more of their share.  Last year, the CEO was given something like $26 million in bonus.  How much health care would that have helped to pay?

Service industries are not immune, as we were once led to believe.  India is starting to suck away those jobs.  A lot of these are the 2nd income that many middle class families have come to enjoy and rely on.

I can't wait until all those Mexican truckers are on our roads.   >:(

[SwampDonkey]

What I see happening is that good paying jobs are lost, wages are dropping, more people are becoming poor and enrollment is way down in Universities. If we want Global trade there needs to be global environmental and labor laws and no subsidies. Here in Canada the pay cheque went a lot further until the end of the 70's. You could feed the family, buy things, make the mortgage and save money on $180/week income from one income earner. These jobs we are losing are with the same companies moving off shore and governments here are done putting companies on life support, and it's only a bandaid on a  large wound anyway. Canada immigrates 250,000 foreigners a year, where do we all work? We loose 3000-5000 people a year from NB who migrate or emigrate elsewhere. A lot of people who immigrate here, leave for larger cities as there is no work. And a lot of these people are professionals like doctors, engineers and scientists.

[RSteiner]

Not only are jobs lost to Mexico and China people in the US are loosing pets because some companies are trying to make their products at a lower cost.  The wheat gulten purchased from China by pet food companies that was poisioned by a chemical used in the making of plastic is an example of this.

It maybe less expensive to make products in some forgien countries but it's not just cheap labor.  The lack of quality inspections, process controls, and sorry to say some govermental regulations produced the poisioned pet food.  How is it the US produces so much wheat but companies in this country have to purchase it from China?

It seems like more and more corners are cut in an effort to produce goods at a lower cost with the result being an inferior product.  I would agree that company executives are making far more compensation than ever and blaming their ability to compete on the labor costs of the worker.  

Randy

[KGNC]

It's not a new way of doing business. Early in our countries history the textile industry moved into New England because it was cheaper to make cloth here instead of shipping from England. After the civil war the textiles moved into the south, cheaper material and labor. Some years ago the textiles started moving to Mexico and lots of other poor countries. Now some of those jobs are being moved to China. As living standards improve workers end up pricing them selfs out of a job.

[jrdwyer]

Ron you are right about collateral damage.

For example, appliance manufacturing has been shifting to Mexico for the last few years. In Evansville we have an old Whirlpool refrigerator plant that recently lowered its workforce by 500 employees. I think they are now around 1000 employees. This plant buys plastic parts from many smaller local firms. They also use wood pallets and crating. If this plant closes, then many of the smaller plastic part suppliers and the pallet mills/hardwood sawmills will lose a large customer.

I used to believe the 'spin' in the newspaper about only lower-end appliance production going to low wage nations. But I was recently in a department store looking at new water efficient washing machines and the salesman told me that many of the middle to higher end models from Whirlpool were now made in Mexico. Funny, I believe the German Bosch model is made in the USA.

I don't know where all of this will end. Economists, who are mostly employed by the government, are generally against the idea of industrial planning. Their mantra is let the 'free' market decide where the jobs end up. I think we need manufacturing jobs and we should use incentives like eliminating corporate taxes for those "Made in the USA" products using 100% USA made parts. Or maybe global standards like SwampDonkey recommended.

I hope there are still some jobs left here with a stable and civil society in 20 years time. A good education system should at least keep us civil even if the economy declines.

[Tom]

It's fine and good to justify the loss of our industries and labor to other countries, only if we, who are doing the justifying, are third party to action.  I would expect to be challenged on the street corner in a conversation with a China-man, Frenchman or Indonesian.  I have a hard time swallowing the seemingly impartial, complacent remarks of many in this country, and other countries being affected, that remove the spirit of patriotism from the equation.

Too often lately folks take the side of illegal immigrants, corporations that are firing employees, employees that  make unreasonable demands on their companies, children who rape, murder and ignore authority and just the general population that has no compulsion to follow minor law.

If our home country were a sports team, those who couldn't follow the rules would be kicked off uncerimoniously.  Those who didn't support the team would find themselves chastised and banded from the mainstream, losing the perks and camaraderie that came with being a "patriot".

When did we lose the want to win?  From where did all of this complacency come?  What happened to Patriotism in this country?

It bothers me a whole lot to hear the anti-American rhetoric that spews forth from the mouths of the likes of Rosy O'donnel.  She is center stage and in a position of being heard, but the streets have more people of her ilk roaming around in them than I would like to imagine even exists.  

Are the countries of the Free world becoming just gatherings of cattle-like individuals?  Have we lost our direction? Have we lost the want or need to hold hands against the onslaught of societies who have sworn to dismantle our governments and dismantle our society?

I don't understand the comments made by some radicals lambasting our President, our elected officials and cajoling with, as well as consoling, other countries whose visciouness is pointed directly at us.  It is like entering a lion's den with steak and thinking that you are going to make friends with and pet the "putty-tat".   These people have no sense of reality.  Do these jerks think that war is just a game?  They threaten the lives of every young man and women we have put in harm's way with the ignorance they allow to spew from their mouths.

Why, sure, it's OK for a citizen to be unhappy with the decision of his President, but not to publicly ruin him and take sides with foreign leaders too.  These people have lost the team spirit.  The Corporations that go off-shore and expect to be treated, still, as team players, should be shown, in no certain order, that they no longer are part of the "inside".

I don't know what to do about workers who continue to make demands on companies to the point of putting them out of business.  Somewhere both sides need to realize that we are all on a bigger team.  Where are the rest of the citizens when their cohorts destroy a company?  Why don't the rest of the workers have the guts to tell their friends to back off?

What in God's name has happened to the representatives of our legal system.  How does a judge even let a case into court where someone is suing over a hot cup of coffee?  Why doesn't the general public realize that the lawyers, by admitting in their advertisements that the society is corrupt, aren't team players?

It is a smart saying, "If you don't stand for something, you stand for nothing."  I think that a lot of the citizens of the USA have no Balls  and many of the rest have no conscience.  In days of old, when this country was a fledgling, people were put to death for blaspheming as they do today.  Now, I'm not saying that we should roll out the electric chair, but, I am saying that we should please some of the people who have decided that the USA is a murderous monster and encourage them with much effort to leave.

Think about it, long and hard, before you openly justify the hiring of and the acceptance of, illegal aliens(immigrants) with a comment like "well they have to eat too".

Think about it long and hard, before you openly justify a company moving off-shore because they can operate cheaper, home town be damned!

Think about it long and hard, before you side with your co-workers in making demands on a company it can't provide, or usurping the control of the management of a company whose owner has put his life's blood into.

Think about being a Patriot, a team player.  It has to start somewhere.  Don't give up the ship without a fight.  This New World Order crud is nothing more than a few egotistical jackasses icing a cake with flour and water.  It removes all individualism, all independence, and smooths the rules such that none will have any meaning.  If you lean that way, you are leaning upon a return to a dictatorship the likes that Soviet Russia never experienced.

[bedway]

Well said Tom,,,Society has changed drasticlly in the last 30 years and the lack of conviction and morals are right at the top of the list. We,,ALL,, need to step back and look in the mirror and quit pointing fingers. The phrase (its not my fault) seems to be the norm. My dad youse to tell me to be accountable for my actions,,,ok, ive ranted enough for now.            bedway

[WH_Conley]

As far as the president is concerned, I have had things with every president that I did not agree with, but he is still mine. Like the song says,"we might fight among ourselves but you outsiders leave us alone".

What I can't understand about cheap offshore labor bringing the prices down, take all the jobs away, what are people going to buy with?

I don't hold as much against the illegal immegrants, they are trying to better theirselves, as I do the companies that hire them at the expense of their employees, communtity and country.

[flip]

Our capitalist ways have ruined a lot of people and soiled our morals but it's still better than the alternatives.

[Ron Wenrich]

Tom

That door has to swing both ways.  When you have upper management making up to 400 times what the line worker is making, they think they should have a piece of that.  Huge profits should trickle down to line workers.  Here of late, management has been pressing for concessions from workers, and getting them.  They still move out.

From a personal standpoint, when I see a company put it to their workers or consumers, they're off my team.  I won't buy that product, even if it costs me more money. 

When they move all the good paying jobs out of this country, who are they going to sell their over-priced goods to? 

[Steve]

Our capitalist ways have ruined a lot of people and soiled our morals but it's still better than the alternatives.

I have to fight with that one all the time Flip. I wish we could eleminate the gene for greed.
Produce a lot , comsume a lot and the rest of the world be damned.....

Either your with us or your?

[limbrat]

Imagrants or illegal aliens come here because the present national health epidemic is obesity.
Did you now that American familys on average have tied up 120% of there desposable income?
Would you believe that my poor grammer and diction are above average?

Union Tank Car has recently built a large facility here. They are behind on ther orders and are unable to build a good work force from the limited local labor pool. There are plenty of hands but they need skilled labor.  LousianaWORKS.net   There are close to 100,000 people within 50 miles but the skilled labor is gone to the oil field.
Moving to a place with a lower over head is not allways a good ideal.
Obesity epidemic solved change bar codes on food to include nutritional values. Then tie food stamps to a 2500 calorie a day diet per adult male. Adjust to simular values for women and children.
That would be a lot like feeding tuna mayonnaise. But sounds like par.

[flip]

We all have the greed gene.  When we are the executive and accept a 12million dollar bonus, when we are the worker and strike our company for .25/hr raise just for the principle of it, when the banker tacks on an extra point to our intrest rate.  It all keeps propigating itself.  I guess it is all from the vantage point of who is calling who greedy.  If you are the boss and you take a profit at the end of the year, are you greedy.  The guy constantly in the office with his hand out for a raise, is he greedy?  The more you make the more you want.

[TexasTimbers]

The World According to kevjay

Myth: Mexicans are here because they can't find work in Mexico and want to better their lives.
Fact: Mexicans are here because we are too complacent to get off our butts and force our corrupt, treasonous politicians to act according to our will.

Myth: Our manufacturing base is virtually gone because corporations want to fatten the pockets of their CO's and stockholders.
Fact: Our manufacturing base is virtually gone because we still buy the cheap products they ship back to us instead of buying used american, making ourselves, seeking a mom and pop maker of goods, or doing without (the concept of doing without is absolutely alien to this generation).

Myth: Much of the coming generation of our children are amoral, materialistic, disrespectful, sexually active disease-ridden, uneducated brats because we allow them to watch MTV, play video games, and watch terrible TV shows full of sexual innuendo that promote attitudes of self first and authority last if at all.
Fact: Much of the coming generation of our children are amoral, materialistic, disrespectful, sexually active disease-ridden, uneducated brats because we have allowed the God-haters to remove God from their lives and replace Him with a secular "anything is okay" attitude and because we do not teach them a work ethic and respect while they are young.

Myth: It takes a Village to raise a child.
Fact: Previous generations who, overall, used the Bible as their instruction manual for life and rearing kids produced generations that were as a general rule hard-working, respectful, generous people who believed in God, Country, and Community (and certainly Flag!). they did not put themselves above any of those three.

This message has been brought to you by an old-fashioned, narrow-minded, intolerant jerk, and my Facts are my opinion, and that is a fact.

[SwampDonkey]

 smiley_curtain_peek

Is it safe?


;D

[scgargoyle]

I work in the higher end of manufacturing as a tool and die maker. Our industry has been gutted by foreign competition, like many others. The result is declining pay and security. I make 30% less than I did 10 years ago, withOUT factoring in inflation. During the same period, houses have tripled, taxes have tripled, and homeowner's insurance has quadrupled (here in FL). I'm being shifted to the lower class through no fault of my own. Everyone seems to have forgotten the war effort in WWII, when all the factories were converted over to the war effort. How are we gonna do that when there aren't any factories, or people who know how to do the work? China is going to be very well set up to dominate the world soon. Once we are dependent on their goods, they can raise the prices, and kill us without firing a shot. Another scary thing is that the illegal aliens are having huge families, while people with education and money are having smaller families. Over time- guess what? We will be the minority in our own country! A friend of mine saw a very young boy peeing in the parking lot of his barbershop. He ran out, and saw the boy's father watching. He offered the use of the bathroom, but the father said (in a spanish accent) "It's OK, he's only peeing." There's your future for ya....

[thurlow]

 I seem to remember being asked, when I joined the U.S. Army (August 16, '65),  if I advocated the violent overthow of the U.S. government.  I've thought about that a lot...........not yet ready for a violent overthow, but I could sure go for a peaceful takeover.   How-some-ever, when I looked up the oath of enlistment, it doesn't say anything about  that;  maybe it was a series of questions leading up to the oath.  :P

"I DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR (OR AFFIRM) THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC; THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; AND THAT I WILL OBEY THE ORDERS OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE ORDERS OF THE OFFICERS APPOINTED OVER ME, ACCORDING TO REGULATIONS AND THE UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE. SO HELP ME GOD" 

[RSteiner]

Some of the issues in this country is to be blamed on the silent majority, or apathy as others have pointed out.  The majority has remained silent because we have been told it is not politically correct today to voice our moral opinions, and most of us go along with that.

There are those in the "village" who don't want the whole "village" to raise the child or get involved, only those who agree with their agendas and methods.  Anyone with religious convictions are too narrow minded to contribute and are legislated out of the process.

There are many forgien countries who send their college and university students here to be educated.  A few years ago many would stay and become productive citizens.  Today most retrun to their home lands to make them a better place and they take technology with them.  We still have the ability to teach and train some of the best in the world.  What is it that keeps our young people from wanting to become good blue collar workers?

There is a lot of greed out there in the business world.  I can not understand how and why a V.P. is worth 1/2 a million or much more a year.  How and what can that one person do to earn back their salary and perks?  The workers on the front line see the injustices and wonder what is the point of working hard to make them rich.

I am afraid that things will have to get worse before and if they ever get better. 

Randy

[Cedarman]

Two years ago, most of our production went to a company making mail box posts, bird houses and bird feeders.  Most of the production of bird houses and bird feeders is now in China.  China pays 30 per cent more for cedar cants.  Price of cedar has went up considerably in the last year.  We now focus on custom orders, we can set our own prices and business is very brisk.  We shut one mill down and expanded to grinding whole trees.  One market closes and the fencing market opens wide to swallow more cedar than ever before.

The new person making the mailbox posts is screaming for wood because he is locked to a price by Lowes until June when he can renegotiate. 

We are manufacturing more than ever in the US, but we are doing it with a lot less people which means that manufacturing jobs are going to keep disappearing.  We are a lot more productive per man hour than 10 years ago.  I am always on the lookout for new more productive machinery or a new process to be more efficient.  I have room for lots of improvement.

Stockholders are demanding higher returns.  Why shouldn't an employee get the maximum amount of remuneration possible?  Companies are beholding to their stockholders and their stockholders only. Never forget that.  Employees are disposable, never forget that.  Every employee should be loyal and give 100 per cent while employed.  That does not mean they should not be educating themselves, networking, and keeping an eye open for a better opportunity.  I would not hesitate to move to another area of the country if the situation warrented it.  I would be like the Detroit autoworkers headed for Wyoming because of the new opportunities. No guarantees, but to expect others to take care of us is foolish.

There are so many opportunities for people to go into business for themselves.  It requires risk and a big chance of failure.  Go into Wal-Mart. Look for what is not on their shelves, what they are not selling.  How many times have we complained that Wal-Mart has a million items but not the ones we need or the quality that we want? We still have a small hardware store doing a good business, because they have lots of good stuff that we need. 

Through the ages society has always had traps for kids.  It is the parents job to teach the kids to avoid the traps, be independent as needed, to be a team player as needed.
If your kids leave the windows of the car down, do you roll them up and holler at the kids, or do you make them get out of bed or off the computer or up from TV to go out and roll them up.  Do you pick up after the kids or do you make them pick up after themselves?  Do you teach them how to do all kinds of things or do you do it yourself because it is easier and takes less time?  Do you make sure they answer the phone correctly or let them embarass the family?  My kids will be responsible for their actions. No ifs, ands or buts.

We can whine about jobs going oveseas, whine about government not taking care of us, politicians being corrupt,   etc. or we can find all those opportunities that lie hidden and get on with our lives.  Life ain't fair and never will be.  It is up to us to be positive and make the best of it.

[SPIKER]

 :(

well this is one of the posts that are hard to ignore read them all see what is happening all over.

I live, work, buy, eat and prosper in Ohio.   We have lost tens of thousands of jobs in the last decade to over seas suppliers.  Ohio (Mich & PA too) was the state (states) who made just about any thing and every thing used in the US for the last 100 years.   NOW 90% of that can be made else where and shipped here to be bought at prices higher than they could have been bought when they were made HERE.   (some say it is inflation but that is not the case if you study much economics)  Sure inflation has a lot to do with it but it is more to do with where the $ went.   So manufacture overseas where is the savings in a major buy?   Cars Washers driers ect.   They are in the CEO's and Stock holders pockets not in the pockets of the workers in China, Mexico ect.   Lots of comments here about LACK of a good work force which is partly to blame on the government & our generation, no longer can you disipline a child you can't show them the RIGHT way to do things as that is not aloud the kids are 95% worthless now and will not do a manual job, how many people of OUR generation (40's or younger) will go out and pick fruit vegies ect?   I would be willing to bet 99% of you think you are beyond that well maybe but SOMEONE has to do it which is one reason I don't see the Immigrants as a bad thing more of a requirement..  Unfortunately they aren't coming up much anymore as they now have nice paying factory jobs down home to work at.  the ones that used to be in Ohio Pa Mich ect...   My Brother-N-Law is a Manager for a plastics type company.  he has been contract labor/head chopper for years in different parts of the USA.   He has (for 15+ years) been going from place to place making different companies profitable by getting rid of the high paying CEOs and Managers who's most important job has been making themselves look good at the expense of the company.   These are share holder owned and employee owned types of places (hard to get rid of the CEO's when they are ones that pay you)  He had worst time finding workers who would actually SHOW UP let alone work and actually do/produce something.  many manufactures moved out of USA for this reason alone. (back 100 years ago FORD had to pay his workers $5 a day to get them to come to work and he made one heck of a good profit when they came and did what they were paid to do.)   He (my brother -n-law had to pay more $ to the workers got a better product got rid of a lot of the top paid managers/CEOs  and made every one of the companies profitable in 6 months or less...  His is/was a simple business plan, the guy who makes the product is the one who should share the most in the profit (spread across the companies books that is)    Just because the company made 100 million this year it wasn't the CEO who made that profit so why pay HIM 20% of that as a bonus?   It should go to the guy/girl who actually had the biggest impact on the product the one who put it together assembled it grew it and or put it into a package to sale...



I'm sure that 100% of the people out there think that CEOs or SPORTS STARS and the likes that are being paid 10's of millions per year and getting 10's of millions more in bonuses per year are worth that kind of money?   I highly doubt that any one of us in USA Canada or Mexico for that matter think that these people are really worth 90+ million to play what is basically a game.   
Now many Big Cities are building Big Sports venues with tax payers $ and then giving all these million buck players & companies tax abatements ten ask the citizens to pay for the new school through higher property taxes and or donations?  The city people say hey it's bringing people to watch them play and they spend money here. (sure it is a boost in what looks like a money maker because the city isn't paying for it and they generate $ from parking fees ect and the tax payer gets the bill & cities get the free $.

here in Ohio the Courts ruled that the state can't fund Schools with majority of Taxes pushed onto property owners, yet that was 10+ years ago and nothing has been done to correct it.   My tax burden as a worker who owns real property is very high (not as high as some of the new england states buy nearly as bad)   I work in one town pay taxes to them , live in a different town pay taxes to them, then pay school taxes there (3 on levies on property taxes and 2 levies on income) then pay county/state property taxes, federal income tax, state income tax & Social Sec taxes.   I believe that last time I looked at true figures I was paying 40% or so of what I made out in taxes alone.   I have to work until I'm 72 to get full benefit's from Government, I have no company retirement as the CEO's cut those a long time ago.   The rest that is left is for living expenses.   Paying for Insurance for cars, home farm health is at least 15% more of the income alone (company pays a lot of the health care expenses) where as my woman has to pay almost $450 per month for her health care insurance alone!   

I think that the government HAS to fix our over burdened tax system first and foremost, second they need to start to deal with Social Security and the issues with health care for everyone.  3rd thing is dealing with the helpless/homeless here in USA, then think about those other countries that ARE out to make the USA pay for (insert a religious or fanatical reason here)   We send billions overseas to help peoples of the world who are in war torn countries which is fine and dandy IF we were taking care of our OWN first...

We need a fundamental chance in our government before anything of real value can change
for the better here in USA, not sure about Canada or Mexico as they too have their own problems much of them are similar to what we have here I'm sure.   in our WORLD community we need to first fix our back yards before we mess with other peoples front yards...

Mark M

[treecyclers]

Here in AZ, it seems like Mexicans outnumber the other nationalities significantly.
They provide cheap labor, doing the jobs that the "White Boys" are either too proud to do or too lazy to do. They work 10-16 hours a day in the baking sun, and for the most part work harder for less money than an American would even consider for themself.
Given the quality of labor in this area, I'd hire a Mexican before I would hire a caucasian, simply on the labor dollar value.
It's embarrassing to me that the overwhelming majority of Americans think we have an entitlement, but aren't willing to step up, suck it up, and get the job done.
Minimum wage isn't intended to be a living wage in my eyes, but a starting point.
I've even considered starting a manufacturing plant in Mexico, as it would cost me $50 a week for labor per person there, instead of $500 to 750 per person/day in the US.
We're pricing ourselves out of the market on labor, and when we can't compete on the cost of labor, and we buy cheap imported goods over US made, how can we realistically complain that we have no jobs?
We vote with each dollar that we spend in the marketplace, for or against the US labor market.
It's a sticky situation, all things considered.
And, all that being said, I do all I can to buy US made products, built by Americans, keeping my dollars here instead of overseas.

[TexasTimbers]

How does the tops of those fence pickets feel poking you in the crotch? ;)

[beenthere]

treecyclers
I hear what you are saying, but my take is that we have enslaved these people and some day, in the not-too-distant future, these people will be demanding compensation (and entitlement) for this enslavement. It may be happening already, and most don't realize it.  
Certainly with this cheap labor source, those hiring will opt for the cheap. Maybe this is not so good for us, as a country. I think our economy would adjust (and should start now) to legal labor, not illegal. It's a phony economy now, with the money going back across the border.
'nuff rant from me.

[TexasTimbers]

I have a response to share with you bt that I got in an email about the immigration issue. I could not disagree more about "enslavement". The truth can be hard for us to swallow but there is no such thing as cheap labor. I realize that the original post was about "foriegn" cheap labot but who can deny how relevant the illegal laboir issue is as if not more relevant.

"But the bottom line is cheap labor. The phrase "cheap labor" is a myth, a farce, and a lie. There is no such thing as 'cheap labor.' "


Here is the full text:

Tomatoes and Cheap Labor

  Cheap Tomatoes
  This should make everyone think, be you Democrat, Republican or Independent

  From a California school teacher - - -
"As you listen to the news about the  student protests over illegal immigration, there are some things that you should be aware of:

  I am in charge of the English-as-a-second-language department at a large southern California high school which is designated a Title 1 school, meaning that its students average lower socioeconomic and income levels.

  Most of the schools you are hearing about, South Gate High, Bell Gardens, 20 Huntington Park, etc., where these students are protesting, are also Title 1 schools.

  Title 1 schools are on the free breakfast and free lunch program. When I say free breakfast, I'm not talking a glass of milk and roll -- but a full breakfast and cereal bar with fruits and juices that would make a Marriott proud. The waste of this food is monumental, with trays and trays of it being dumped in the trash uneaten. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

  I estimate that well over 50% of these students are obese or at least moderately overweight. About 75% or more DO have cell phones. The school also provides day care centers for the unwed teenage pregnant girls (some as young as 13) so they can attend class without the inconvenience of having to arrange for babysitters or having family watch their kids. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

  I was ordered to spend $700,000 on my department or risk losing funding for the upcoming year even though there was little need for anything; my budget was already substantial. I ended up buying new computers for the computer learning center, half of which, one month later, have been carved with graffiti by the appreciative students who obviously feel humbled and grateful to have a free education in America. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

  I have had to intervene several times for young and substitute teachers whose classes consist of many illegal immigrant students here in the country less then 3 months who raised so much hell with the female teachers, calling them "Putas" whores and throwing things that the teachers were in tears.

  Free medical, free education, free food, day care etc., etc., etc. Is it any wonder they feel entitled to not only be in this country but to demand rights, privileges and entitlements?

  To those who want to point out how much these illegal immigrants contribute to our society because they LIKE their gardener and housekeeper and they like to pay less for tomatoes: spend some time in the real world of illegal immigration and see the TRUE costs.

  Higher insurance, medical facilities closing, higher medical costs, more crime, lower standards of education in our schools, overcrowding, new diseases etc., etc, etc. For me, I'll pay more for tomatoes.

  We need to wake up. The guest worker program will be a disaster because we won't have the guts to enforce it.
  Does anyone in their right mind really think they will voluntarily leave and return?

  There are many hardworking Hispanic/American citizens that contribute to our country and many that I consider my true friends. We should encourage and accept those Hispanics who have done it the right and legal way.

  It does, however, have everything to do with culture: A third-world culture that does not value education, that accepts children getting pregnant and dropping out of school by 15 and that refuses to assimilate, and an American culture that has become so weak and worried about "politically correct" that we don't have the will to do anything about it.

  If this makes your blood boil, as it did mine, forward this to everyone you know.

  CHEAP LABOR?
  Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is about?

  Business doesn't want to pay a decent wage

  Consumers don't want expensive produce

  Government will tell you Americans don't want the jobs

  But the bottom line is cheap labor. The phrase "cheap labor" is a myth, a farce, and a lie. there is no such thing as "cheap labor."

  Take, for example, an illegal alien with a wife and five children. He take s a job for $5.00 or $6.00/hour. At that wage, with six dependents, he pays no income tax, yet at the end of the year, if he files an Income Tax Return,  he gets an "earned income credit" of up to $3,200 free.

  He qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent

  He qualifies for food stamps

  He qualifies for free (no deductible, no co-pay) health care

  His children get free breakfasts and lunches at school

  He requires bilingual teachers and books

  He qualifies for relief from high energy bills

  If they are or become, aged, blind or disabled, they qualify for SSI. Once qualified for SSI they can qualify for Medicare. All of this is at taxpayer's expense

  He doesn't worry about car insurance, life insurance, or homeowners insurance.

  Taxpayers provide Spanish language signs, bulletins and printed material.

  He and his family receive the equivalent of $20.00 to $30.00/hour in benefits.

  Working Americans are lucky to have $5.00 or $6.00/hour left after paying their bills and his.

  The American taxpayer's also pay for increased crime, graffiti and trash clean-up.

  Cheap labor? YEAH RIGHT! Wake up people

[beenthere]

We are on the same page kevjay. I believe what you posted is happening, and it is frightening -- at least to me.

[SPIKER]

(I re-read my post above and Keyjays post & others, mine above didn't sound all that right.  like keyjay said that the GOVERNMENT needs to make things better for US workers, and make sure any illegal ones are made to own up to what needs to be done not bringing all of the family here so they can get on gov dole. and have all the health care that the normal US born citizen can't afford...   

one bigger problem is the new generation is no longer seen as useful to the USA as they want every thing handed to them have to do nothing but set & eat food watch TV and play video games.   Think they can smoke do drugs play out in the street in mommy's car driving drunk and have no responsibility for it.   that they are the VICTOME some how and most of them seem to try & play that role as best they can.

I'm supportive for USA as best as I can be, and try & buy stuff I can AFFORD that is made here.   I am paid well and can afford to live as long as I don't buy a new car a nice home or top of the line home entertainment systems.  I work 40+ hrs a week for the company and work nearly as much a week for my farm/self.   Share times with the woman Vote and try & make things right as best I can.  I can't buy a NEW Ford as I don't have the $ I could go into dept sure but I won't live with 20K car price tag as it is not what I would say is with in my financial security.   Lots of people want to buy all new stuff and hey if they can't make the payments call mommy for a loan or file chapter 13/11/7 and start doing the same thing right over.   I'm glad some of those laws changed recently.   as far as the illegal immigrants paying taxes they usually just keep every thing they make use a false SS# and never file taxes.  I had (nearly 10 yrs ago now) IRS contact me to see if I was working in Ohio or in TX as someone was using my SS# out there.   luckily they didn't try & make me pay for any thing that was owed by that person!  though I'm sure they were looking to find out who was using it...

anyhow as far as freedom I think that was taken away a long time ago, now we simply try & survive until we can't... 

MarkM

[thurlow]

We are on the same page kevjay.

I think we're all (mostly) on the same page.  Solution.........."they" are not gonna do what we want done.  My take.........when election time comes..........THROW THE BUMS OUT;  almost without exception, I vote against the incumbent.

[Patty]

What Cedarman said is how I feel. Change is always going to happen. You cannot expect to have the world revolve around you. You must grow and learn as you go and when change happens, you need to move along also. This is a free and great country and opportunity is always out there, you just have to go after it. Whether you need to move your family or go back to school or open your own business, you can always reach for new opportunities. One thing you cannot do is sit around and whine and moan when these changes occur. That does you no good at all.

[sawguy21]

Well said.

[TexasTimbers]

there is a difference between whining and moaning and not doing anything, and having a constructive discourse amongst doers about how to address a cancer in the country. that's how the Republic was born.
I would not think there are many among us here who are simply whining and moaning for the sake of it. Yes change occurs but it is also possible to shape change to a degree, much like placing a single rock in front of stream can change its course; like-minded people must first go through those stages of awareness, planning, and then action.
Patty correct me if I am wrong but I hear you saying that in your opinion since change is inevitable why try to bother and shape it, just accept whatever hand you are dealt and make the best of it. I'm glad Patrick Henry didn't think that way! ;)

[Cedarman]

Both can be done.  Change brings opportunity along with agony.  I definitely talk to my Congressmen when I want something changed or stopped.  I look to vote for those who will control immigration.  I have only a certain amount of energy. Most has to go toward business and family. I will not hire an illegal, I will not patronize businesses that I know have illegals working for them. 

I look at it realistically.  I may fight change, but I must adapt to the change that comes along and use it to my advantage.

When we went to the 911 system 10 or so years ago, they changed our addresses. Fine, but they changed our road names to numbers on a grid system.  It is impossible to give directions using this new system because no one knows the road numbers.  We are on crooked roads so 425 South changes to 440 South at the next intersection and then 550 South and so on.  Our politicians have been reluctant to get the names on the corners.  I am in a long running battle to get something done.  So are a few others.  I see it coming in a few years that we will be successful.  Small thing, but worth fighting for.  It is a war that we can win.  Companies sending manufacturing overseas is a battle we cannot win IMHO and so I do not fight it.  I adapt to it.  Lets change what we manufacture.  I am manufacturing something that cannot be imported as cheap as I can make it.  Mulch in the midcontinent.

Whining is unproductive, same as just complaining.  Figuring out a course of action and doing has the best chance to lead to good results. As kevjay said.

[florida]

Maybe things aren't quite as dire as some believe. In March alone 180,000 new jobs were created in the US. Since August of 03  7.8 million new jobs have been created, 2 million in the past 12 months alone.  We've added new jobs each month for the past 43 months and unemployment is at 4.4% which is very low. Since the first quarter of 2001 productivity growth has averaged 2.8% which is better than any time during the 1970's, 1980's or 1990's. Real wages are up 1.8% in the last 12 months.

All these facts and more at http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.toc.htm

[jim king]

Not having read all the posts but thinking I understand the theme and I as a person of the world not sure where I belong would like to make a comment.

Please never forget that our country was made by illegal immigrants and made legitimate by terrorists in the eyes of England at that time "who sent them a runnin where the rabbits couldn't go"..

The world is a whole lot smaller now and the systems are seeking their level very fast which one day will be equal.  Every country or power has its time and it started a long time ago with Egypt , Romans , Greeks , Spain, Portugal , England and now the USA.   The only question is who is the next power ?  China is a power house not yet let loose as is India.  The Common market in Europe is a power .  Our own system  has made the USA from a equal to a lesser partner with others because of our own ideals and the world is changing still more.

I live in the middle of the jungle and have a life that not many of you would probably support or enjoy but I like it.  The view from the outside is obviously very different than that from within.  Just my 2 cents but be careful up there. 

[Cedarman]

Jim, it is good to get a perspective from a different vantage point than our own.  Hope you share some more from the jungle.

I almost went to work at the headwaters of the Amazon in 74 for an oil well service company.  I know that would have been an experience.  Went to live on the beaches of Trinidad instead.

[Patty]

You don't know me very well Kevjay!  ;D   I will fight to the finish on battles worth fighting for, but I am a realist as well. One thing I understand is that if a person will not grow and broaden their horizons, they will be left behind in the dust. It is not very realistic to expect to have one job your entire adult life, and nothing but wage increases and benefits and pensions coming your way with no input on your part except showing up to work. That may have been the case at one time, and for some it still is....but for many of us that is simply not the case anymore. When a job has gone away, through no fault of your own, you must move on. Fighting to keep a job the same as it was 30 years ago is just not common sense. Look around and see all the change that has happened in 30 years...computers, cell phones, world economy, etc. To think that you can pick a job when you are 17 and still have that same exact job when you are 57 just is not realistic, unless it is a job you have created for yourself. Even the farmers in our area have had to  grow and change with the times. Those who don't are often left behind.

As far as immigrants, well, they are what has made our country as great as it is. My ancestors were immigrants, and I can guess that most of yours were as well. I think the attitude, "now that I am here, shut the doors, don't let anyone else in" is pretty short sighted and selfish. Treating the immigrants as the enemy is not very nice. I would not want to be treated that way. IF they are in our country illegally, then lets help them become legal, so they can be the productive citizens that we are.

[Jim Spencer]

Tom
Yes I can agree with you that the average CEO wage of  $14,000,000 (14 Million) per year is is just great but a minimum wage of $7/hour is ruining our country.

It seems to me you must be spending too much time listening to the dope addict Rush Limpjaw.
Do you realize that hardly any workers are unionized anymore.
Workers never got anything that companies gave them.
Exxon-Mobil Chief retires with 440 Million dollar retirement package.  He not only is stealing from the stockholders but also from the workers.

[beenthere]

Jim
We just oughta make da minimum wage 14,000,000 a year, cover everybody. Then they'd have 'nuff money ta pay for da helth insurance. Solve all our problems.  eh eh

[thurlow]

  minimum wage of $7/hour is ruining our country.

Would be hard to support a family on $7.00  per hour, but  I've yet to understand why it's any of the government's business what I choose to pay an employee..........or what the employee chooses to work for.  If we're gonna have a minimum wage, why not make it enough so that everyone can truly live well;  how about $30.00 per hour or $50.00 per hour.   We could all be rich.

   

IF they are in our country illegally, then lets help them become legal, 

Sometimes we have to agree to disagree;  we're nearly all children of immigrants, but how many of our ancestor's came here illegally?  Let's enforce our laws.  If anyone is here illegally, they need to be thrown out.  I'm a retired dirt farmer and no student of psychology, but I think that rewarding wrong/illegal/crimianal behavior.........whether in a child, student, employee, prisoner, animal, illegal immigrant, etc...............will only lead to one thing;  more of the same behavior.  If the laws are wrong, change 'em, but let's don't grandfather anyone in;  we did that a few years ago.

I see bt posted while I was writing, but I think too slowly to go back and change anything.

[Furby]

Patty,
What do you do when you are willing to change with the times but no one will hire you?
What do you do when you can't sell your house, so you can't even think about moving someplace where there might be a job?
How do you go about getting a loan for a new house while you move, when you do not yet have a job?

[Cedarman]

From my perspective I will hire someone for one reason only.  They will make me money.  Therefore, find a job opening that fits you, make sure you have the skills to do the job, walk through the door and say, " I am here to make you money, and I can do it by doing the following..."  "By making you as much money as possible, I hope to be paid accordingly."  I guarantee you will have their attention.

Furby, couldn't you rent an apartment in a new location until your house sells?

When my folks came over in the 1800's there was plenty of very cheap land on which you could make a living. Also they could not get on the government dole.  There is no cheap land today and we have all kinds of new laws that use our tax money for illegal's kids.  Times have changed and changed dramatically.  We do not need millions of immigrants to fill the unfilled places in our country that we did a century ago.  We need to kill the notion that because we are a nation of immigrants we need to keep on letting anyone in that wants in.  We need an orderly process by which people come legally.

If we need more people in this country, then why is the abortion rate what it is?

[TexasTimbers]

I understand your position more clearly now Patty. Let me clarify mine. Just becuase I want the current laws enforced does not mean I cannot accept change or deal with it. I have been successful in most endeavors I have ever tackled, and if I had remained static I would not have been able to adapt enough to changing circumstances. I have always been able to do that and so has this country. But this is not about me and really not about illigal aliens (immigrants is not a correct way to think of illegals aliens who are here, well, illegally).

If they are here illegally they are not immigrants and comparing them to our forefather's is a slap in the face to those who did it legally. So what this IS about is saying, let's enforce the laws. Thats the nexus of the debate as i see it. Too many people today forget that we are a nation of laws. When we the people adopt a feel-good attitude of not wanting to enforce our own laws because it doesn't seem nice, what right do those same people who have that mindset, have in telling me that I don't have the right to ignore the laws I don't like? With that philosophy - there are alot of laws I don't like. I hate paying taxes so I should have the right to quit paying them. I don't feel good about having to buy a fishing license so I don't think I should have to. It isn't hurting anyone so why should I have to comply with the law. It is a silly law and unfair to fisherman so I choose to ignore that one.
I also don't think I should have to tolerate people who invade my country peacefully or violently so I should not have to be holden to the laws that prevent me from throwing them out catookas over teakettle. But of course that is not realistic I am trying to make a point.
I'm just saying that i think it is a disgraceful state of affairs when a large portion of our countrymen no longer feel an obligation to do there part to uphold our laws. It's like someone said - patriotism is becoming a thing of the past.
The PC crowd says we have to embrace the illegals because they are here. Horsefeathers. If we can't see that it is a Trojan Horse we deserve what we get. When a country loses its identity and commonality it ceases to exist. I am simply saying that I like my country. I want to do my part to preserve our way of life for as long as we can. Surely there will come a day when our way of life, our culture as we grew up with and knew it, will die.  History proves this. All I am sayiing is we don't have to be the generation history points to and says "That generation was the one that said we don't care. . . . come and take the country our fathers died for."
Tom Brokaw wrote a book called "The Greatest Generation". I think he was right.  I don't think we are worthy to even unlatch their shoe straps.......

Peace Out! ;D

[TexasTimbers]

Wow. Patty, I had not read any of the responses to your post. To be honest I was reading your post archives to get to know you better. I promise I wasn't being a copycat I did not see any of these responses until after I posted mine. Not that it changes my perspective, it doesn't. Just don't want you to think I am "piling on". I like you and respect you and your opinion. We just disagree on this issue is all.

[Furby]

That's exactly what my Brother and his wife did, Cedarman.
They paid the morgage payment on the house AND monthly rent.
After more then a year on the market, they sold the house on a $10K loss.
Meaning they had to take out a personal loan for the difference at the sale of the house.
Last numbers I heard were last fall, but it was something like 60 houses for sale for every buyer and I belive that number to be over 100 now.
Lots and lots of folks are simply packing up and walking away from the houses, one such case is right across the street from my parents.
Foreclosures in Kent county alone are 2.5 times what they were last year.

That said, how would you go about renting an apartment if you don't have ANY $ for first and last?
How do you cram a family full of little/young kids into a two bed apartment?
You just get ride of pets?
How do you make the morgage on the house you are leaving behind AND the rent, if you are still looking for a job?
In my brother's case, he was only out of work during the time it took him to move as he took a transfer with the company.
Most folks don't have that option though.

[thecfarm]

I feel anyone can come to our great country,BUT I feel they should find a job and stop the handouts.Yes,we all need help at times,make a cut off time.I feel that anyone that comes to this country needs to speak and understand English.I realize there is a lot of french people in our state.But when they came here they did not expect us to take thier langauge.They learned ours.No reason these immigrants should have better health care than the working man.People in jail have it made too.Just don't seem fair.But I'll keep working to support every one else.I lost one job overseas,the shoe industry.Looks like the one I have now is going south to be closer to the car plants.I don't see how we could produce everything that we use here in the US.But I would like to us try alot more.

[Larry]

It's quite popular to heap all the blame on overpaid executives.  When you look at there compensation as part of the overall pie, in most cases it's an insignificant amount.  When it takes more time and money to complete the environmental impact study for a plant in the US than to actually build a state of the art plant overseas...that does seem to be a problem.  And when an environmental impact study is completed it's subject to appeal, protest, and in general...your not gonna build that in my back yard syndrome.  The risk compared to the reward ratio is way out of whack.

[Cedarman]

Furby, if I had good answers for your questions I wouldn't need to run a sawmill to make a living.  A lot of people would pay me for those answers.    I have thought, "What would I do if I lost everything".  If I had a negative net worth and my assets were declining in value instead of appreciating, I would hold my nose and declare bankruptcy.  I would do that to get the weight of debt off my shoulders. I would also tell any friends and local businesses that I would pay them back eventually even though under no obligation legally if I declared bankruptcy.  Moral duty and legal duty are 2 different things sometimes.

I would then find someone that would hire me to saw or work in the woods for whatever pay I could get and would do that anywhere.  I would use the skills that I have first.  Working at McDonalds or Wal-Mart would be last.  But I would take any job that gave me some cash to use as a stepping stone. 

Are there trustworthy advisers that help people make good decisions to get out of a hole?  I hear Dave Ramsey on radio and TV advise people how to change their lives.

The above said, it is extremely hard to get over the emotional feeling of failure.  I am sure I would feel like that if I lost my job and about to lose my home.

[Patty]

I understand your frustration Furby. It is very painful indeed. I have been in your shoes....more times than I care to remember. One time I remember my dad put all our furniture in the neighbors garage, and we lived in a tent for several months. That is mom, dad, and 5 kids (my sister was 6 months old) in a tent. I remember going to school, and the teacher asked where we lived. I told her we  lived in the city park.  :

Another time I remember I sold my business, my home and auctioned all my furniture. We moved into a vacant farmhouse (that my kids still swear was haunted) with a bed for the boys, a tv and a couch. We slept on the couch for months before we could afford a bed.

Do you want more stories? I got them! My point is, it happen to the best of us. I have been so down and out many many times. Many of us have.

It is not pleasant, but you pick yourself up, dust off the pain, and start all over again. Homes can be replaced. Lives can be patched up and put back together. You just have to have the guts to try. It is very hard.

[Norm]

Awww Patty you make me long for those good old days. :D

[Tom]

That would make a good story to tell to these Illegal Aliens.  They could make it at home without breaking our laws. 

[Larry]

While plant closings and who caused what makes for interesting conversation it might be more interesting talking about good jobs begging for workers...especially for the displaced or unemployed.

So, in this months REA magazine there was an article about a 10,000-lineman shortage by 2010.  "Starting pay ranges from $30,000-$40,000 per year, while experienced technicians can earn more than $60,000."  It has been my experience overtime hogs can far exceed top pay.  All utility companies offer a full plate of benefits.  Don't know how to hook a pole?...I'll teach ya. ;D  Maybe a better idea from the article "Many systems now offer scholarships for area students ranging form $1,000 to $9,900."  The article went on to say some Missouri colleges are offering lineman training programs in cooperation with local power companies...something I did not realize. :P  Betcha none of these jobs are outsourced overseas.

I venture to say, jobs are there for the people who seek them out.

[isawlogs]

Norm ...
   Ya really want to sleep on da couch ...  ???  I sometimes really dont understand some of you ...  Da couch  ....  I read some where dat she was going ta give dat thing away ..  :P

[sawmilllawyer]

This is still the greatest country in the world. It is the only country were people are free to speak their minds although they possess differences of opinion. I don't think there are any easy answers to the problems of keeping jobs in the USA or exporting them to cheaper labor markets in other countries, such as manufacturing jobs to Mexico or technical support jobs to India. It is a fact big busineess goes where it thinks it can produce the goods or services cheaper.  This is borne out throughout history, good examples having been given in previous posts to this topic. 
As for immigrants they made America the melting pot; however I am talking about the ones who came here legally, like my grandparents who immigrated from Germany to avoid Hilter's regime. Not illegal aliens who squat upon American soil with no intention of becoming  citizens of this country and accepting both the benefits and burdens of the same.
Furby, it was'nt so long ago that oil boom went bust in Oklahoma (1983) house forclosures were the norm and many state and local banks failed. The FDIC created the Resolution Trust Corp. to liquidate thousands of houses for less than fair market value, a time when personal bankruptcys were rampent and this part of the country was destitute and desparate. I have seen some media coverage about the situation in Michigan with homes being sold for a fraction of their value or in many instances people defaulting on their mortgages. I lost my both my first wife and my well paying  job in 1994. Felt the percussions from explosion  and experienced the aftermath of the OKC bombing.
I understand your frustration and concerns about what is happening both to you and all around you. I think Patty put it about as well as anyone could. Having survived several clamities in my time;  the time to keep a cool head and keep plugging away is paramount. Crystalizing a definite objective goal and a Plan of Action (POA) critical. No matter how simple it may be.  Also positive affirmations which at times I still repeat to myself, "tough times do not last but tough people do."   
Above all remeber do not become desparate no matter what may come because "desperate people do desperate things, and I am not one of them". There is a way out of the box, you just have find yours. Good Luck, god bless, Andy

[crtreedude]

Where to start... and should I.  : Just my dos colones but I do have a little experience in this.

Okay, more and more jobs will be lost to cheap labor, whether it be foreign or not. The value of a thing is based on two things, supply and demand. If the supply is higher than the demand, the price goes down, if the supply is less than the demand, the price goes up.

Unless we become a socialistic society - there cannot be price fixing on a wide scale. Companies try to buy things for as cheap as they can, just as you do.

What is the core issue? The salaries and standard of living in the USA is much MUCH higher than the rest of the world. Water seeks its own level and so do wages. Eventually, products in the USA have to be competitive with the rest of the world. Now, the rest of the world, including little Costa Rica, is capable of competiting in technology. They have people who are trained and who are willing to work less and at least in Costa Rica, would prefer to stay home and work - but they still take your jobs.

As the world becomes one big economy - it means that wages will equalize to a point. Nothing will stop it. Just like you cannot stop for long water from seeking its own level - and thing we tend to forget when we build dikes.

You all know this very well. If someone buys a sawmill and starts cutting for less than you - you sure hope that his quality is bad or soon you won't have any business unless you meet his price. Of course we really like it when we are the one who can produce for less.

There is a face on all of this adjustment - believe me I see it even though I am writing without being concerned about it. But I also see people from Nicaragua starving because they have a country pretty much destroyed while we were supporting the contras. Please understand, if it wasn't for us supporting some pretty nasty people down here to prevent communism, these nations would be doing better. But, since those countries are near to us - they would be competiting even more for manufactoring. As soon as you fix the immigration issue, you will have an even bigger problem with outsourcing.

Someone mentioned they should stay home and fix the problem. My neighbor, who fled Nicaragua, saw his sister gutted with a knife from bellybutton to throat for standing up to the Sandinistas. He left a farm, family, etc to bring his wife and son to a new country. Many of our descendants did the same. Also remember, the Native Americans didn't HAVE an immigration policy when many of us fled to the new world for a new life.  I suspect more than a few wish they had when we were driving them from their lands. I do believe in trying to control immigration - but you never really will succeed. If we do, it will be another first. Even the USSR couldn't stop migration of people who wanted a better life with the Iron current. I would sure hate to see a board like that along Mexico and Canada.

We have been talking about buying American since I was a young man in the 70s - it is 30 years later. It isn't going to happen folks. If you want to survive the coming adjustment, learn to do things that can't be done in a foreign country for a fraction of the cost.  My industry (or was my industry) is facing a huge threat (software development). There is nothing that will save the salaries of the past in this industry.

Not trying to cause a fight, but I think it is important to discuss what is, instead of Nirvana. We in the USA have had a wonderful time for several decades - now an adjustment is coming in my opinion. As someone pointed out, the adjustment time is coming when we have a generation that doesn't seem to think they have to work for anything.

Competition is hard, painful, and never certain. There are winners and losers. However, without competition, you have communism, which was well defined by the following quote after the fall of USSR.

"They act like they pay us and we act like we work."

To survive the future - we have to ask ourselves two things. Am I providing value for my work and can someone do it for cheaper? This is how most businesses survive.

Regarding the pay of CEOs and such. I don't really agree with such high compensations but the harsh reality is that there are very few people who have experience in working with very large companies at that level. If you don't have a very good CEO - your company may well fail. It is very stressful as well - VERY stressful and in someways, very dangerous. All you need is one upset worker who got laid off to come gunning for you and your family... Is it worth 14 million dollars? If that is the going rate and it is the only way to get a good CEO - yes, it is. Look at the pay for sports figures and entertainment people. Are they really worth it? In my mind, no - but in the mind of the businesses who pay them - sure. Because a winning football team, or a blockbuster movie makes much more than these people do, and these people are key to success.

Sawmilllawyer - there are many countries in the world were people are free to speak their mind, even in little Costa Rica we can.

[SwampDonkey]

there are many countries in the world were people are free to speak their mind, even in little Costa Rica we can.

Even in bigger countries.  ;D

[crtreedude]

SD - you mean you ain't some repressive dictatorship up there?! 

[SwampDonkey]

No, we can talk all we want. We just get ignored.  :D :D

[SPIKER]

No, we can talk all we want. We just get ignored.  :D :D

Hey it works that way a little farther south too! 

MarkM

[jim king]

I will put another angle on the problem.  Americans have lost the spirit of adventure.  Our forefathers got on those boats not knowing for sure where they were going or if they would make it.  Today we are one of the least traveled of the modern countries and it has an impact.

To the point, every American that lives overseas usually buys American machines and products if possible. .  I watch with interest and awe the way the Chinese are the biggest group of immigrants in most countries.  Why ?  They are out there working and becoming legal immigrants all over the world and are bringing in all the Chinese made products in quantities unimaginable.  They are quietly building a huge infrastructure and marketing system world wide.

It is a very well thought out master plan and they virtually control the markets in South America, Africa and other areas.  Other countries are sound asleep and those little buggers are taking over the world.  To make it worse they work 18 hours a day and are self financed not needing to borrow at bank rates.

[Ron Wenrich]

The problem with markets in South America and Africa is that they are generally poorer than other areas.  If you want to sell something for top dollar, you have to go where the money is at.  The Chinese are very good at running volume at low rates.  That would appeal to the lower end markets.

But, when you get to where the money is at, you need higher quality goods.  You make more money off of your product.  Japan worked pretty much the same way when they started up.  Volumes of lower quality stuff, which provided an opening for more products.  When they produced the higher quality, their own people no longer wanted the lower quality products (thanks to a higher quality of living), and they had to abandon some of those products to satisfy their domestic markets or else import.  China will probably follow the same pathways.

They will produce for the poorer countries, since other nations aren't doing that.  When their own people start to demand better products, they'll get out of those markets and go to higher quality.  But, there is more competition in those markets.  Think automotive and you'll see what I mean. 

[crtreedude]

Ron, you are correct, they start making the knockoffs and poor quality for the lower income - and once they get that down, they know how to make the better stuff - and for cheaper.

It is very very hard to compete on the comodity market - you have to produce a better product (or as good) for less. Once you can do that, it is easy to go after the higher end market - better price margins.

Look at the Japanese now for an example. I remember when their stuff was considered junk - when Japanese meant poor quality. I rather doubt anyone will think that know.