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Consumption Diesel/Gas Woodmizer

Started by Wolfgang, April 03, 2007, 12:11:28 PM

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Wolfgang

Dear Forum users,

we will buy a Woodmizer LT40HDD but we havn´t decided yet the engine type. The price difference between Diesel (34hp)and Gas Engine (28hp) is about $4,400. We will process pine wood with the sawmill on 250 days a year. Has anybody detailed information about the consumption of both engines? What about the vibrations of both engines? Does the gas engine run smoother or the diesel and may affect this the cutting quality? Also we will work in areas with roads in very bad conditions. Maybe the weight of the diesel engine will cause any harm during the ransportation to the sawmill?

Does anybody own the LT40HDD with the 28HP gas fuel engine who wants to share his fuel consumption experience?

Duty station for the sawmill is in the Dominican Republic.

Thank you for your help/comments.

farmerdoug

I think there is a few questions you need to answer first.

You said softwoods but what size of lumber are you cutting?
What quality fuel is available readily?
Since you are a little outside of woodmizer probable parts supply, which engine would you be able to repair and get parts locally for?

Farmerdoug
Doug
Truck Farmer/Greenhouse grower
2001 LT40HDD42 Super with Command Control and AccuSet, 42 hp Kubota diesel
Fargo, MI

Wolfgang

Hi Farmerdoug,

the dimensions are up to 20", but generally between 6 and 12", The quality of gas fuel here is international standard, the quality of diesel is poor (example: modern economic diesel motors doesn´t work here). But there are diesel WOODMIZER sawmills working in the country without problems with the diesel quality.
There is no part supply problem here. There is a local representation (authorized dealer) of WOODMIZER nearby. That´s one of the main reasons why we want to buy that brand.
I think that the power of the gas engine is enough, but generally gas engines consume more than diesel ones. Do you have any details of that?

Wolfgang

Dave Shepard

You will have to operate for quite a while just to save enough on fuel to pay the extra $4400 purchase price. I would think there would be a substantial performance advantage to the diesel, as well as longer life. I am sorry I don't have figures on economy.


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

LT40HDD51

Welcome to the Forum, Wolfgang.

Quote from: Wolfgang on April 03, 2007, 12:11:28 PM
...What about the vibrations of both engines? Does the gas engine run smoother or the diesel and may affect this the cutting quality? Also we will work in areas with roads in very bad conditions. Maybe the weight of the diesel engine will cause any harm during the ransportation to the sawmill?...

There arent any big differences between the gas and diesel engines as far as vibration during sawing is concerned. You will get more power out of the diesel (waaay more torque) and would notice a difference sawing the bigger stuff. Gas will do the job just fine, diesel will do it a bit faster without working as hard.

The weight isnt a big factor, either. WM engineered the mills to handle the powerplants they install on them. I have, on my own mill, ran a ratchet strap around the saw head to the frame and snugged it up for long drives over rough woods roads and the like. Always remember to transport it with the clutch engaged, and remember to disengage it before firing it up  ;).

I dont have any fuel consumption figures either, Wood-Mizer could probably give you something to work with. But I agree with Dave, long time to get the diesel paid for strictly from the better fuel economy. On the other hand, diesel is not as explosive as gas and doesnt evaporate as much in storage...

I know with my 51 horse Cat, I can burn a bit more than a tank in an 8 hour day. Id like to hear other peoples fuel economy with their gear, too. How about a Cat diesel edger?
The name's Ian. Been a sawyer for 6 years professionally, Dad bought his first mill in '84, I was 2 years old :). Factory trained service tech. as well... Happy to help any way I can...

DWM II

I can cut in the area of 1200 bd/ft per 3 gal. tank on my 91 model lt40 hyd. Its got a reto-fitted Kohler 27 hp gas engine. It varies a bit from hard wood to soft wood depending on thickness of cut as well. I do find it has plenty of power, but I dont cut for a living. ;)
Stewardship Counts!

jackpine

I have the 25 hp Kohler on a 2000 mill and rule of thumb is between ¾ and 1 gal. per hour of running time. Varies with type and size of wood as well as how hard I'm pushing the mill.

Brucer

With a 28 HP Kohler, over the past year I have averaged 10 Engine-hours and 1500 Board Feet for every tank (18 Litres of fuel consumed).

My next Wood-Mizer will have a diesel engine ;D.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

customsawyer

My first mill was a LT40 with the 42 hp Diesel it would burn about a gal per hr in hard sawing. I now have the LT 70 with the 62 hp diesel and it takes about 1.5 gal per hr in hard sawing but I figure even at $3.00 per gal diesel price that is still only $1.50 per hr more for the increase in production. If you look back at other post all the advice always says the same thing "get as much hp as your pocket book can afford" and I think that is very true. You will not hear a sawyer say "I just have too much power on that mill I wish I had gone with a smaller engine".
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

derhntr

I have the 28 hp gas on a 2006  LT40HD28G, I get 6-8 hours per 6 Gal tank full, I saw mostly by my self so I have lots of idle time while stacking, tailing. Sometimes the  28hp is just enough to handle some of the whitepine I have cut. Up to 38" on the butt. Could have use mor hp on that tree.

Brian
2006 Woodmizer LT40HDG28 with command control (I hate walking in sawdust)
US Army National Guard (RET) SFC

amberwood

I have the 40hp Lombardini turbo diesel.....super economical @ only 10L per day..half a tank. I heard an intersting description of this engine the other day whilst chasing down the gremlins.."like most italian machinery it works wonderfully when well tuned but is a monster when it goes off song" or something to that effect.

Fingers crossed that CAT $$$ conversion is not required a for a lot longer yet.

DTR
MS460 Magnum
MS250
DAF CF85-430
ASV RC-85 track loader

farmerdoug

Since you have good local Woodmizer support and diesels work fine with the local fuel I would go diesel. 
Like it has been stated you have the HP for the wider cuts and you will be sawing alot of time with it.  To me diesels work longer without major repairs if maintained.  Parts can be a little more exspensive though but you want a mill that will be cutting daily so go diesel.
I do not know how long it will take to recover the cost difference on fuel savings but with tractors diesel wins every time.

Farmerdoug
Doug
Truck Farmer/Greenhouse grower
2001 LT40HDD42 Super with Command Control and AccuSet, 42 hp Kubota diesel
Fargo, MI

sparks

Here are the engine specs you were asking about.
\"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.\" Abraham Lincoln

LT40HDD51

Hmmmm... only slightly higher fuel consumption with the diesel, higher blade speed even with the lower high end engine speed (faster cutting with the extra torque), and check out the oil capacity... Twice the oil in the Cat, they are an extreme duty rated engine... May prove to be better in your probably harsher-than-average use...
The name's Ian. Been a sawyer for 6 years professionally, Dad bought his first mill in '84, I was 2 years old :). Factory trained service tech. as well... Happy to help any way I can...

sparks

The alternator output is wrong on the 28hp. it should read 105 amp.   Thanks
\"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.\" Abraham Lincoln

Wolfgang

Thank you all for your comments and information, especially to sparks who resumed the engine specs.
Now we have the information to make the (i hope so right) decision.

Wolfgang Sauren

Minnesota_boy

I think you'll find that it's hard to make the wrong decision. 
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

Gustavo

cost /hour  =galons/hour+engine manintence

diesel  engines are cheaper  in dolars/hour   than  gasoline

but  manintene   are expensive  (filters. oils. inyectors . inyection pump)

ask for the forum   how many  hours is the average live of each engine

and put this number in the ecuation

 



thanks to the forum for share very value informations.
here i have got good information  and  over all   good friends

kderby

I purchased the 28hp Kohler with two considerations.  The air cooled engine was lighter.  I am also remote and travel on rough roads so the lighter engine made sense.  Second, I mill primarily softwoods similar to the size you described.  The 28 horse works very well.  I do not feel short of power at all.

I purchased the Accuset and love it.  I have a debarker and love it.  I do want an auto-clutch.  Skip the diesel and spend the money on that option.

How are you going to deal with blade sharpening?

Good luck and welcome to "The Club" 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Gilman

Go with what ever you think will be the most dependable in your enviroment.  No sawdust = no money.  The purchase price is a tough decision when you first purchase equipment, it's really painfull when it's not running.  The fuel price stinks when you're filling up in the morning/evening but I'd pay $6.00/gallon for an engine that was guaranteed to run 100%.

I get cought up a lot in the little things of sawing that are costing me money.  Those items are never more than a customer that wants to talk.

(I'm not discouraging talking, that's the price of being your own salesman)
WM LT70, WM 40 Super, WM  '89 40HD
Cat throwing champion 1996, 1997, 1999. (retired)

Dave Shepard

I would compare the oil change differences between the gas and diesel. I changed the oil in our Onan 24hp yesterday, and it got me thinking. It took three quarts of oil and a filter, and we change every 20-25hours. I attribute the long life of this engine to this(3063 hours). A diesel engine should go at least five times that long, with only about twice the oil. That can add up over the years as well. 3063 hours@20 per change is 153 oil changes. 3063 hours@100hours per change is 30 changes. I don't know what the interval on the Cat diesel is, it may even be 200 hours.


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

BBTom

I change the oil on my 42HP kubota every 500 hours if it needs it or not.  ;)

I think my normal fuel consumption is about .5 gal/hr.  I have run as much as 2800 Bdft on 5 gal of fuel.

It has almost 3500 hours on it, no problems yet.  Often wondered why WM changed to the perk-Cats, this 42 Kubota suits me so much that I hate to think of upgrading and having to get a yeller engine.   
2001 LT40HDD42RA with lubemizer, debarker, laser, accuset. Retired, but building a new shop and home in Missouri.

Percy

Quote from: BBTom on April 12, 2007, 12:37:26 PM
I change the oil on my 42HP kubota every 500 hours if it needs it or not.  ;)

I think my normal fuel consumption is about .5 gal/hr.  I have run as much as 2800 Bdft on 5 gal of fuel.

It has almost 3500 hours on it, no problems yet.  Often wondered why WM changed to the perk-Cats, this 42 Kubota suits me so much that I hate to think of upgrading and having to get a yeller engine.   
LIke you, I love my 42 hp Kubota. It takes about 8 or 9 hours on the meter to gobble up a tank of diesel. I change oil every 100 hours  though so my savings there isnt that great. I got almost 3200 hours on mine and the only greif it gave me was the throttle cable about a hunnert hours ago. I spoke to a fella who uses the same motor on a differnt aplication(genset) and he has 14,000 hours on his without a rebuild.  ;D ;D ;D
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

Dave Shepard

I also would like an answer on the switch to Cat (Perkins? :o). I am sure there is some form of logical explanation, but I'll never buy one. Kubota has a great reputation. I have heard many cases of hard starting about the Cats. My Kubota tractor will start unassisted at -15F without a problem. I'm glad I'm electric.


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Chris Burchfield

Engine Oil Change on the D-51 Cat/PerK. is 250 hours. The move from the Lamberdini (?) to the Kubota was part of my hold out. While I was saving money to commit on the Kubota, Woodmizer struck a better Warranty deal with Caterpillar. Perkins who has been manufacturing diesel's along time makes the smaller and provider to Cat. learning all of this is what caused me to get up off the couch.  :D :D :D The Kubota 42 by brand name was something people here in the states recognized. They didn't know anything about the Italian made Lambedini. Not to be confused with Lambergini (?), as in the car. I had some problem in the fall with starting, figured it out via a thread, and have not had a problem since. Working by my self, and a day considered by me to be a hard day, I didn't burn a full tank of fuel. Most of the time, I don't burn a full tank on a two day weekend. I don't have an edger so I'm doing the fletches also.
Woodmizer LT40SH W/Command Control; 51HP Cat, Memphis TN.

LT40HDD51

Heres a couple things Im sure of:

1. Cat is an extreme duty engine, the Kubota was a regular duty. The Cat holds more oil and is much stronger-looking by the reinforced block, warranty is also better on the Cat.

2. Perkins was bought by Cat along with the tooling to make the smaller engines, before that they didnt make one smaller than the 200hp range.

3. Cat has been after WM to switch to their motors for a while now.

Like anything its evolution. The Lombardinis had problems with the head gasket leaking coolant into the oil, ruining the turbo. So they switched to Kubota. I think the switch to Cat was because of the Cat reputation as a great engine, the warranty, and the extreme duty rating.
The name's Ian. Been a sawyer for 6 years professionally, Dad bought his first mill in '84, I was 2 years old :). Factory trained service tech. as well... Happy to help any way I can...

Dave Shepard

Define extreme duty, the Kubota is already bulletproof. I would rather buy Kubota parts than cat parts any day, $$$. Also who is doin the rating? Hostess can call a twinkie extreme duty, but I can eat them up all day long.


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Tom

Well, I'm an example of having to work with Kubota on a Warranty problem where my 38 horse engine was failing from the factory with a mold crack that allowed oil into the cooling jacket.  My salvation ended up being a pugnacious Kubota Industrial Engine Dealer who, lucky for me, had migrated to Florida from the streets of New York City and held the distributor at task.  Still it took over six weeks of the engine being in his shop and me being without it to get a replacement engine.

Firstly, I was turned away by the Kubota tractor dealership and told that It wasn't their problem, "go find an Industrial dealer".

I did, and believe me, Industrial Kubota dealers aren't that easy to find.  Most of them are manufacturers of their own product and don't deal with the public frequently accept for their own warranties.   I was lucky.  This dealer took me under his wing and found himself in an out and out fight with his Distributor.

The Distributorship in Ft. Lauderdale did everything within their power to, first, do nothing, and, second, offer a short block and a rebuild, with parts from the original engine.

Finally, and I attribute it solely to the dealer, I received a new engine.  The old engine had less than 150 total hours on it.

Once the problem was resolved, I sent a letter to Kubota of America in California and expressed my dismay at the actions of the Distributor and my thanks for the actions for the dealer.  I got no response.  About three months later, I sent another letter reiterating the first and showing my displeasure that Kubota of America had ignored me.   I have never gotten a response.

Now, on the Cat front.  I had a problem with the 3116 in my Kodiak that couldn't be resolved by the Chevrolet dealer here.  They were trying, but I think they didn't have the knowledge to do what they were trying to do.  I ended up in Industrial Cat dealer for this area, Ring Power, for a servicing one day and they found that I had a problem.  I was of the understanding that warranty work had to be done where I bought the truck.  NO!  The said.  That's a Cat engine and we work on Cats. l We'll get it fixed.

It was a lot more difficult a job than they bargained and took the better part of a year to get it fixed.  In Frustration I even got angry with them one day.  But they took it all in stride, assured me that they would get it fixed and I would not suffer from it, even if it took hauling the truck from another state.  They were right.  I couldn't have asked for better service nor a more valiant effort.  When I went for servicing, the book on my truck came out and they looked for any indication of the problem.  The entire bottom end of the engine was replaced one time because "we want to make sure you aren't left stranded somewhere".  I know that must have cost a bunch.

What amazed me was the volume of work they could do in such a short amount of time.   I saw them rebuild stuff in a couple of hours that would have had me down for a week or more at the Chevrolet place.

When it was over, the engine was fixed, had been dyno tested several times and I was given a clean bill of health with the promise that, if it so much as sneezed, they would make it right.  How can you be unhappy with service like that?

Brucer

I used to own a D-7 Cat, 25 years old when I bought it. If I ordered a part that the dealer didn't have in stock, it would be shipped by bus from Spokane, WA, and would arrive at the dealer's the next day at 7:00 AM. If I didn't want to make the hour drive to the dealers, they'd put it on the local bus (no charge) and it would show up here by 10:00 AM.

One day a track adjuster broke so I ordered a replacement. Next morning I got a call at 7:15 -- "Sir, we're very sorry but the adjuster they had in Spokane is missing a piece. They sent it to us anyway, just in case you could use it. Do you want us to send it on to you?" Well, naturally the missing piece was the one part that I couldn't salvage. I asked when they might be able to get a complete unit (hoping to have it "by the weekend".) Their reply blew me away. "Well, sir, just in case you couldn't use the one we've got here, the corporate jet is on it's way to Houston to pick up a unit. It'll be in Spokane this afternoon. If you like, we can have someone drive it up from there, or if you can wait until tomorrow it will be here at 7:00 AM."

This was for a $200 dollar part for a quarter-century old machine that I used on weekends. But they promised next day delivery of parts, and they meant it.

I guess you could say I'm a Cat fan ;D.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

BBTom

I didn't mean to start anything.  I just really like my Kubota. The one LT40 with a cat engine I know of in my area has been in the shop several times.  The dealer is giving fantastic service. It just doesn't want to run smooth, wants to cough and sputter and blow black smoke.  They have replaced all the fuel components at least once, some of them twice - just to be certain. 

I wonder how many problems there were with the Kubota 42 as compared to the Cat, on a per hundred basis.  Maybe someone has that info, but since Cat does all the service, WM may not even know. 

2001 LT40HDD42RA with lubemizer, debarker, laser, accuset. Retired, but building a new shop and home in Missouri.

Dave Shepard

Tom, sorry to hear you had such trouble with your Kubota. I am surprised that you had so much trouble with Kubota, I have dealt with them on occasion and it has been great. The lengths Kubota Credit went to keep me out of trouble after a motorcycle accident and etc. was just over the top. My local bank wouldn't have done it, that's for sure. As far as Cat equipment goes, I have respect for the big stuff, but in dealing with the compact market, I was left feeling that they were really taking advantage of their reputation. My friend bought a Kubota mini-excavator. It was $39k, for the same Cat, with several less options, they wanted $56k. In this class the Kubota is a far better operating and built machine. The Cat salesman wouldn't even negotiate, said he didn't have to. I said he was right, and left. This just made a bad impression on me. I realize this is a little different than the warranty issues you have dealt with, but I have never heard of anybody having to have any warranty work done on a Kubota.


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Tom

Apparently neither had Kubota. :D :D

Dave Shepard

Yeah, I don't think that would be a good ad campaign though. "Our products are so good if they break, we don't have a DanG idea how to fix it!"  ::) ;D


Dave
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

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