Steps in making tongue and grove flooring

crtreedude · March 29, 2007, 02:42:13 PM

Hi All,

I have some of the prettest tamarindo wood (think nearly steel) that we are working on for flooring. Since I am waiting for the shaper to get here, I went ahead after it was dried and planed it to 3/4 of an inch since this is probably the most time consuming part of the job.

Tomorrow (if not today) the shaper arrives with the T&G knives. I have a question. Do I have to square up one edge first - or will the shaper do that? The boards are pretty straight (almost all of them)

I don't mind doing it if necessary, but I sure don't want to waste the time if not.

What do you think?

Tom · March 29, 2007, 03:07:48 PM

Fred,
With flooring more-so than paneling, though both are critical, it is not only important for the boards to be "straight-edged" but that the two sides be parallel and all of the boards in a "run" to be the same width.

A shaper can do some straightening but not as effectively as a joiner. Many longer boards are straight-edged with a skill saw that is run against a fence attached to the board. Then, once one side is straight, the other side is edged/straightened on a table saw.

Only after the board is made as rectangular as possible are the mouldings cut.

karl · March 29, 2007, 05:13:17 PM

yeah, what Tom said, and I hope you get a powerfeed with that there shaper- for a couple reasons- it will hold stock tighter to the table and fence than you can and it will feed at a steadier pace too. Not to mention your body will thank you.
You can set up featherboards as holddowns, but you have to push harder to overcome the friction. In either case some parrafin wax or some of that expensive table wax (DON"T use silicon!) on the table and fence will help.
I've never enjoyed flooring on the shaper- every slight variation seems to compound when laying the floor.....paralell edges are REAL important.
good luck
post pics?

TexasTimbers · March 29, 2007, 05:27:38 PM

Tom is right Fred. There are also some other methods. If you can't get as clean a line as you like with a circular saw and fence (takes experience and a light touch to do it), you can straight-line rip longer boards that would be problematic on a jointer, on your table saw.

It sounds like a lot of trouble but it pays big dividends in your final results. Let's say you are going to have 12' boards as the longest in your project . . . here's what you wiil need:

at least 12' 6" in front of your saw (counting tablesaw table and infeed table) blade and the same after the back of your blade (again counting table distance after the blade plus the outfeed table)

a built up straight edge that is equal to the length of you infeed/outfeed tables plus the length of your total table saw, which is clamped to your fence.

I have an extruded aluminum contraption I concocted for this but before that I have also used 2" thick glulam's that I ripped and then just used the factory edge as the business side. A single piece is preferable but if you can't get your hands on one on CR you can butt 2 pieces (of anything straight for that matter) and glue and screw another scab piece on top to hold them. You can put a nail at each corner just off the face of the working side, run a taut string, and when you move you fence to accomodate your respective widths, just clamp each end of your mile-long fence to where you already installed string tells you ought to be.

This sounds extremely complicated and tedious, but it isn't. If you have the stuff to do it you won't get a faster, straighter, more high production straight line ripping setup on the fly.

If you are not already proficient with a jointer now is no time to practice. Make a planer bed long enough to accomodate your long length stock an run them through, crown up, and take as little as you can according to your patience ;)

Some WWers will tell you that the planer will flatten the piece too much and that it will spring back up and defeat the purpose, and that is possible with too much removal so take light passes. But the wood you are processing is not as springy as that and a planer bed would be ideal for you IMO unless you already have experience with a jointer as used to face the material and are proficient with it taht way.

You don't want your jointer practice evident on your expensive floors. take your time, do it right, and always practice with a pice first before using a newly setup long fence, planer bed, or any other tool or process with which you are not adept.

Good luck. Take pictures.

TexasTimbers · March 29, 2007, 05:31:56 PM

And what karl said too I type s-l-o-w.

Dana · March 30, 2007, 07:40:48 AM

If you don't have a jointer, can the edges be trimed on a band sawmill?

TexasTimbers · March 30, 2007, 10:44:03 AM

Flooring needs a very straight, clean, flat, perfectly 90° edge Dana. Virtually all woodworking projects do. Even alot of "rustic" stuff requires it for a eye-pleasing joint.

A bandsaw will not produce such a joint under the best of circumstances.

TexasTimbers · March 30, 2007, 10:54:42 AM

Fred, correct me if I a wrong. I just realized your question may actually have not got answered precisely. I think you were asking if the shaper will put a 90° edge on the blanks as it cuts the profiles and yes, it will. I mean within reason, provided you don't have a 20° angle on them :

Sorry for all the unecessay jawflapping - you stated you thought they were already straight enough. So yes, the shaper will get you to 90° while also cutting the profiles. Just set your fence so your knives can take j-u-s-t enough stock, but not too much.

crtreedude · March 30, 2007, 10:56:52 AM

Kevjay,

I think you did answer the question. I know it will make 90 degree edge - but I was sure if it would make it straight if it wasn't already perfectly straight.

TexasTimbers · March 30, 2007, 11:00:51 AM

Geez I can't get it right. :D
Nope. A jointer will not applya straight edge. ;)

crtreedude · March 30, 2007, 11:22:45 AM

Sounds good - need to rip it to be straight. A joiner will make it square, but not straight.

It is going to be quite the assembly line I can tell you...

LeeB · March 30, 2007, 08:16:52 PM

OK, maybe i be's wrong, but I thought you used a jointer to get on flat face and one square and straight edge to reference machining for the other two sides to end up with a board flat and square all four sides. Run the flat face against the jointer fence to get a straight and square edge, rip the other edge referencining from the first, run it through the planer to get uniform thickness and four square sides. ???

metalspinner · March 30, 2007, 08:46:01 PM

LeeB, you have it right. However it's accomplished, four squaring the boards will give you the best start to this project.

Faron · March 30, 2007, 10:12:33 PM

Fred, I have never been very good at jointing lumber much longer than 4' or so with a jointer. I use a table and long fence attached to my shaper and joint with it prior to ripping blanks. This is just a jointer kind of layed on it's side and power fed. Often you have to make more than one pass. I do sometimes straighten with the Woodmizer, then go to the shaper. I use a feeder and consider it a necessity. You should use what I call an outboard fence, that is a fence on the opposite side of the blank from the cutter when you tongue and groove it. That will make the finished flooring exact in width with no taper. Also very straight. Several experienced installers have commented on the ease of installation and straightness of my floor. 8)

TexasTimbers · March 31, 2007, 12:12:48 AM

I give up :D I meant to type "Shaper" not "Jointer" ! Even a cursory search in my past posts will reveal I had a brain frat on that one. :

A shaper will not give you a straight edge (although it is possible I sure as heck don't want to open that can of worms.

Sorry for the confusion guys I guess I had "Jointer" on the brain.

srt · April 02, 2007, 12:44:50 PM

crtreedude, I've made plenty of tongue and groove wood, including flooring on the table saw, jointer and shaper. Almost every kitchen we build uses this type on the ends of the cabinets , although it's generally beaded also. Here's what I can offer.

Straightness is very, very important. Straightness is very difficult to obtain. If in any step of the process, you're making either tops or bottoms of rocking chair rockers, stop and re adjust your equipment. Check for straightness by laying one piece next to the other as if you were going to install them as flooring.

What I find the most common mistake I make is taking a little bit too much off near the ends as I'm pushing it through the shaper to make the t/g. I'm not talking about snipe. If there's any bow in the wood, it's easier to get the ends pushed tight, while the center of the board will be harder to hold tight to the fence. Even if there's only 1/128" difference, that means 1/64" total (both sides) of the board. Multiply that by eight boards laid side by side, and you'll come up 1/8" gap on paper. In the real world it's generally not that bad, but sometimes it's worse.

If you find you're making boards a little wider in the center than on the ends, remember this when you lay them. It will be tempting to try to get the end real tight against the board along side of it. Resist this temptation. If you do succeed in getting the end pulled over tight, you'll just create double the gap on the other side when you lay the next course. From there it can and will snowball.

Have fun. Keep those fingers away from the shaper. Build yourself a jig to shield the cutter so if you slip, it won't eat a finger. Wax the table and fence and use hold down and hold against the fence feather boards. I consider the wax a safety item, so I'm not pushing so hard as to be likely to slip.

crtreedude · April 02, 2007, 01:24:14 PM

Thanks for all the help everyone. The job is going very well and I eventually had to fire the most worst worker in the group.

ME! After I helped setup everything and debug it - after about 4 hours I let everyone else take over. They have been working in wood for years and years - I am just a business owner, what do I know?! :

Tom · April 02, 2007, 02:03:50 PM

That's a refreshing attitude. ...and one more business owners should acknowledge. Just because an employee is on your payroll doesn't mean that he isn't smarter than you. (uh.. That's a rhetorical remark, Fred :D :D)

footer · April 02, 2007, 02:47:42 PM

Quote from: Faron on March 30, 2007, 10:12:33 PM
Fred, I have never been very good at jointing lumber much longer than 4' or so with a jointer. I use a table and long fence attached to my shaper and joint with it prior to ripping blanks. This is just a jointer kind of layed on it's side and power fed. Often you have to make more than one pass. I do sometimes straighten with the Woodmizer, then go to the shaper. I use a feeder and consider it a necessity. You should use what I call an outboard fence, that is a fence on the opposite side of the blank from the cutter when you tongue and groove it. That will make the finished flooring exact in width with no taper. Also very straight. Several experienced installers have commented on the ease of installation and straightness of my floor. 8)

Faron,
I have attempted this with a shaper( I do not have a jointer yet) but haven't had any success with long stock. I know the reason, but lack a method of making a perfectly streight long fence, because I do not have a jointer :

to make it with. Any suggestions other than buying a high dollar fence or a good long piece of extruded alluminum?

crtreedude · April 02, 2007, 02:57:48 PM

Thanks Tom, I have really never understood business owners who don't realize that they are supposed to be good at business - not everything else.

There is a difference between being a business and being self-employed with a few helpers. My job is to work on the business, if I am working for the business, we all have a problem.

But I love seeing the trees and seeing the wood - so I act like I am inspecting... ;)

ronwood · April 02, 2007, 04:55:00 PM

crtreedude,

To me delegating the work to those that do it best is being a smart boss and business owner. Few if any can do everything.

Ron

dail_h · April 02, 2007, 08:16:34 PM

It has always been my philosophy tha the "Boss" should get the work lined up,tend to the money,and leave the people doing the work alone. Management on the other hand generly disagrees with my philosophy :( :(

SwampDonkey · April 02, 2007, 08:23:51 PM

Sooo, did ya get it all straightened out yet? ;) ;D

TexasTimbers · April 02, 2007, 08:29:36 PM

That's all real nice and neat fellas but many businesses, especially the sawmilling business do no lend themselves too well to the owner not getting his hands dirty for the first few years at least. I can appreciate Fred's position on this particular project and it is right it sounds like. And even his particular business seems well suited to a hands-off approach as to the nitty gritty end of it, but for the most part running a sawmill or remodeling or construction type of business, well it's an absolute necessity that the owner get in and turn screws and hammer nails at least until the business can get up and running enough that he can take off the tool pouch so to speak. The only way around that of course is to come out of the gates with a big bankroll.
I would argue that most small businesses, and that is the key we are talking small businesses here I assume, have to have every sinew of muscle it can to get through those critical first few years.
Of course, those rare occassions where a couple of good, competent, reliable, faithful employess are found, that is worth more than a big fat wad of cash and a revolving door of employees.
This has been my experience anyway.

SwampDonkey · April 02, 2007, 08:39:30 PM

I agree with Kevin. But I have been pretty lucky to have experienced thinners on my crew and for the most part they do what is expected. But, sometimes I have to point out some things they can improve on or give them instructions to leave certain species or to change their spacing on some sites or increase their productivity.

crtreedude · April 03, 2007, 10:47:57 AM

One of the most difficult transitions for people is to go from being self-employed to being a owner of a larger business. Sawmilling is normally more a self-employed business until you get pretty large. I don't have the luxury to be where things are going on most of the time. We are up to 4 farms now, 3 concurrent construction projects, and a fledgly wood business - oh, and I am an owner in two software companies as well.

All I have time for during the day (and night and early morning!) is to make decisions. Jeff saw this while they were here. As much as I would have liked to - I could only spend a few days with him and Tammy. The show must go on and miles to go before I sleep.

I have to know enough about everything we do to be dangerous - but there sure are people who do better than I. I can't tell you how many times I have had to explain to people that in the future, the most expendable person will be me - and I will have redundancy for everyone else.

After all, if I don't make myself expendable, I will never be able to take a vacation!

I have become an expert in tropical hardwoods and how to grow them. I suspect I will become an expert in how to process them too before we are finished. :