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Black pine stain and teeny tiny bugs

Started by TexasTimbers, March 26, 2007, 07:36:33 PM

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TexasTimbers

I don't know what species it is. I have some black stain in my pine posts thats gonna be used for my clearspan beam. These came from a pile of logs in my yard known to consist of scotch, slash, loblolly, and who knows what else.
Is this black stuff just blue "denim" stain gone wild?

And there a little itty bitty teeny tiny bugs that are about as small as gnats I cannot even capture them with my cheapo camera for you to look at. I was planning on using the Timbor I have hoping that will work. Obviously I cannot kill the bugs in my little shop size hobby kiln.

Should I use these things or chuck 'em and get some with no bugs and black stain?



The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Tom

That looks like mildew to me.  Put some clorox on it.

The bugs won't like the bleach water either.


If it is attracting beetles (bark beetles, etc) I'd not have it around my other wood.  'Specialy in the house.  Kill those little suckers!

Don P

It looks like bluestain, if the clorox doesn't work then that's it. Bluestain doesn't appreciably weaken wood. It has hypae (roots) that do puncture wall to wall in the cells but it feeds on the sugars in the cell cavity not on the cell wall. It does mean conditions are right for rot. If that is white rot I'm seeing then chuck it. Decay weakens a timber fast and unpredictably. If the bugs have done any amount of boring chuck it. Timbor will stop them.

TexasTimbers

This is the best I could do with my carppy camera. Probably won't help much. Main question I have anyway is once I put on the clorox (striaight? 50/50?) should I wait before I apply the Bora Care? Wasn't Timbor that I have actually I ended up getting Bora Care because the guy said it was better for what I needed at the time. Was going after PPBeetles in timbers.
So . . . . clorox and then BC right on it or wait?


The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

SwampDonkey



ambrosia/engraver beetle,  tiny little buggers
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

TexasTimbers

Not the same one unless that cute little feller is in a different stage of adulthood than the ones eating my wood now.
I wish that nice young man had not smashed our truck window last year and stole our big dollar Sony camera or else you could have counted the hairs on that thing - just like in your pic.
i am gonna have to break down and get me another good one this is rather frustrating.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Don P


We call these pine bark beetles, they look like a cousin, kinda have an anteater snout.

I think southern pb is a smaller brownish one, google pine bark beetles maybe.

That is bluestain, I doubt clorox will do anything. No stronger than 50/50, 10% is the suggested I think. Rinse thoroughly to remove it, it isn't good for the wood. Then apply the borate while still wet. If it is pbb's, the beetles will leave on their own as it dries, they were probably hiding in the crevices in the wet spot. Boracare won't hurt a thing though.

SwampDonkey

As Don says, they are the same family, Scolytidae
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

scsmith42

Does anybody know if borax will react with Chlorox?  If not, then perhaps you could mix both and do a single application.

I'm with Tom - it looked like mildew to me.

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

TexasTimbers

I don't have an opinion that can count for much because you all have seen thousands and thousands of boards and timbers. But nearly every pine I have ever processed I have let set around a bit so I have seen blue stain. I have also seen mildew in my day on other stuff. This stiff does look more like mildew to me on the one hand, but on the other it looks exactly like what blue stain does except for being black.

I am not even running for office either. ;D
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Texas Ranger

Kev, looks like blue stain to me, you may want to cut the clorox by half, read somewhere that full strength is not as good as a weaker version, has something to do with fungal reaction to it.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

TexasTimbers

Okay I have enough info to process for this part of the decision. Now to throw in a monkey wrench maybe because I didn't want to hit you all at once with it.

Both of the timbers have some small areas of punkiness. Not patches, streaks of it on the outside only. These things are so heavy it ain't funny so they have no internal rot. Plus on the end grain where I cut them to size no punkiness at all.

I once asked a question about if a timber will continue to rot once the moisture is removed and I think Tom said nope. But these alreay have some punkiness on the outside. I mean very small amounts about the width of a shoestring to pencil and run  a few inches to a couplke of feet and when I dig they only go 1/4" to 1/2" deep. So I would say it constitutes less than 1% of the wood.

Will the punkiness now be held in check after I hit them with Bora-Care and put them in out of the moisture? I would not use them but in order to replace them I will have to go to my honey hole for pine which is nearly 2 hours away and log some more out. Not that big a deal when you consider I am using them in a timber frame application but if they will be okay I don't want to burn a day if it's not necessary.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

SwampDonkey

Seems to me that stuff can be considered a 'disinfectant' and the longevity/effectiveness of it declines over time after the application. Once you place them timbers back out in the sun and rain and snow and mud you can expect the rot to progress as well as critters to re-invade.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

TexasTimbers

I am not going to ever place them back out in the elements donk. I am planning to use them as support posts to hold up that big green header/support beam which will only be supporting a couple of thousand pounds more than itself.
I am just trying to determine if I should use them at all. So far I have not heard any reason not to use them but I am looking for a reason so that I don't regret having put them in service.Not trying to be hardheaded here just trying to be thorough.  So what do you think now - you think the bugs will die from the Bora -Care and not come back and that the rot will cease after being placed in service?
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

SwampDonkey

I misunderstood and thought you were going to store them for a bit longer outside.  :-\

I can't comment on weather the bugs will return because I presume it depends on the application and how well it gets into the grub holes that have live grubs working away. But, my understanding is that bark beetles and ambrosia don't go deep into the timber, mostly the sapwood. So when you saw them up you'll be rid of those little #$@#d's. Heck I've seen people saw up spruce that laid in the elements for 2 years with the bark on, probably full of sawyer beetle holes and stain.  ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

maineframer

It sure looks like blue stain to me. If you look at all the "cons" the pros don't hold much weight here. I would not put them in a building ----my own--- or a customers. You will not be happy every time you look at them. They could make good dunage or cribbing. Well thats just my two cents.
David

Don P

No sapwood decay is allowed in any SYP structural grade. So, not worth the risk according to the folks who are supposed to know. It's blocking or something shorter or smaller, maybe try to saw your way out of the dote ??? I planed down some brace wood last weekend that became some well machined blocking  :(.

TexasTimbers

Hmmm. They look good to my eye. But I don't want to have to ever remove them. What a nightmare that would be.
I have a couple of big osage sawlogs big enough to make some solid 10 X 12s. My wife likes yellow anyway.
Thanks for all the good advice.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Thomas-in-Kentucky

I'm with maineframer and Don P, I would not use it in a timber frame - simply because you might regret it.  I culled about a dozen timbers in the building of my house - there is only one (or two) that I regret... the ones that I didn't cull!!!  You always need a pair of timbers like these for donnage!  Start looking for another pine (or poplar - something light for donnage!) to match it.  :)

BTW, I'll place a $10 bet that boracare will not kill the bugs on contact.  I know its not supposed to, but I'm just saying don't be disappointed when you see them swimming around in it, and going back to work on the timber when the boracare dries out.  I bought at least 12 (prediluted) gallons of boracare for use on my house  (at $90+ a gallon!) and the results were inconclusive at best.  In other words, I still had little piles of saw dust and small holes in my bora-care-treated and stored timbers when I went to use them a year later.  I say the results are inconclusive because maybe I would have had more piles of sawdust, or maybe the boracare will hold the bugs (the bugs that work on dry timbers?) at bay years later as the timbers stand in my house.  I want to believe that I didn't waste over $1,000, but I have no proof of that.  Don't take my word for it - read their guarantee (you can bet I did when I found all those piles of frass!)- it is actually a disclaimer which states that they don't guarantee their product will prevent infestation. 

In fact, I had a pine very similar to your beam there - but it had a few bigger, pencil sized holes in it from a different beetle.  I went ahead and put tenons on both ends and two brace mortisers on it, soaked the crap out of it with boracare - the thing was literally dripping with boracare at least twice, and then I stored it in the barn with my other timbers.  When I went to get it out of the barn a year later, it was riddled with holes and there was so much sawdust/frass beneath it, that the stickers weren't even necessary to maintain the space between it and the next timber.  I culled that puppy.  I'll see if I can find the picture of it...

-Thomas

Thomas-in-Kentucky

Here's the picture of the pine that I treated heavily with boracare and the bugs kept working on it.  (this is the "after taking it back out of storage and just decided to cull it"picture.)  These particular bugs did not move to any of my hardwood timbers that were stored next to the pine.  BTW, in the interest of full disclosure, I should mention that after deciding to cull this timber, I thought to test fit it in the house before cutting another just like it - I mean why not?  Well, I found out that I had cut one of the tenons wrong (my drawing was wrong too!), so it had yet another reason to be culled.  Did I mention my wife did not like it to start with?  It was just not meant to be.  Due to it's light weight, it's now one of my favorite pieces of donnage. :)  To give you a sense of the size of the bug holes, this timber is an 8x12.



here's another "boracare didn't work so well for me" picture.  The timber is a white oak, made even slightly whiter by the dried boracare residue still visible in the checks of the timber.  This picture was probably taken about 6 months after the application of boracare.  I did not cull this timber.  I figure I'll be sharing my house with beetles for hundreds of years.  ok, well the beetles will enjoy it for hundreds of years - I hope to get a few tens of years.  :)


Thomas-in-Kentucky

My empty bora-care bottle collection...



TexasTimbers

TIK, your post is about as timely as one can be. I did indeed treat both timbers with BC yesterday, and as my wife was driving up I had been standing there in amazement watching these little flea-like creatures literally swimming in the pools of it like they had found an oasis in the desert.
I told my wife I guess it works slow, but it is bound to work or they could not sell the stuff. No one would buy it if it didn't!

I had decided last night after reading the latest offerings from maineframer and Don that I would not use them. I think after reading your post I might not even se BC anymore.

The 26'er is green. You know it is full of bugs too although I saw no eveidence of them. Starting to wonder if I shouldn't do the 16 x 48 addition next year out of walnut. I have enough.

The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

SwampDonkey

I think you made the right decision Kevjay.  ;)

The sound of crunch, crunch, crunch in the walls isn't music I'd like to here.  ::) I can remember some wasted wood left on logging yards from the winter before and hearing those sawyer beetles chewing the stuff up in the pile, with bark on. I think sawyer hit softwood and buprestidae hit hardwood. Yours aren't the same, but still bad little #@#$ds.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Thomas-in-Kentucky

Quote from: kevjay on March 29, 2007, 10:00:34 AM
I told my wife I guess it works slow, but it is bound to work or they could not sell the stuff. No one would buy it if it didn't!

ever seen those little tornado-turbines that you put in your air intake and get more horsepower and better gas mileage?  I think they've sold one or two of those.  :)  I guess your boracare mileage didn't vary from my mileage so far.   :-\

-Thomas


Tom

You could use steel and not have to worry about bugs or rot or sawmills or any of that stuff.  :)

There is lots of steel studding being done now. 

There is sheeting with enough glue in it that the bugs don't want it either.

Lots of the bug damage you see is bugs leaving the wood, not from them attacking it.  If you want to use bug-free timbers, start with a living and healthy tree and process it as fast as you can.  Borax is an internal poison and kills by injestion, not just contact.  If you were to use it on apples, you wouldl probably lose a few apples too.

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