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Greetings From A Field Forester

Started by PracticingForester, March 23, 2007, 06:01:36 PM

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PracticingForester

Hey everybody, cool site! I've been a practicing forester for a long time and it's good to see you all trying to help each other do the right thing for the woods. During my career, I've seen a lot of bad stuff from the fast talkin' timber thieves and rustlers to the do-nothing forest bureaucrats who have mined the forestry sector for all it's worth and put back nothing! Proof of this is that the vast majority of private forest land is not managed but subject to periodic liquidation cuttings. Things are better than they used to be as we try and weed out the bad guys and promote the good loggers, but the biggest problem in promoting good forestry is that we private sector consulting foresters just aren't respected as in other professions. Check out my website: http://www.northquabbinforestry.com/ and click on liquidation cutting and you'll see what I mean.
I've also seen a lot of good forestry in the last 1/4 century and most of it has been done by my fellow consultants. If you're looking for a good forester who can be trusted, you can't go wrong with a forester who belongs to the Forest Guild. We are obligated to practice good forestry and must walk away from any job that involves high-grading or liquidation cutting. 

Gary_C

Glad you are here Mike. We always have a need for an experienced voice in forest management. I am one of those loggers, hopefully not one that needs to be weeded out, but one that is continually embarased by the antics of the bad ones. Unfortunately, by the time we get rid of the bad ones, we will all be so hog tied with rules, regulations, and certificates that we can't cut anything.

There was a program on the local pbs stations and produced by the U of Minnesota that identified the biggest threat to the states forests as the parceling of the forests into small lots that will never again see any management or cutting. I do not think it was well received, but it is the truith.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Craig

I think I know this guy!!!

Hi Mike,

I see you found the site! It is a good site with a lot of good folks. And to the FF members I can vouch for the quality forestry work Mike does!

Craig
Craig Martin
C.S. Martin Forest Contracting
Life, Liberty and Justice For All.
(This includes Americans)

Don K

Hello Mike, Good to have you here.  Don
Lucky to own a WM LT40HDD35, blessed to have a wife that encouraged me to buy it.     Now that\'s true love!
Massey Ferguson 1547 FWD with FEL  06 GMC Sierra 2500HD 4X4 Dozer Retriever Husky 359 20\" Bar  Man, life is getting good!

BrandonTN

Welcome, Mike! 

It's nice to see another forester on the board.  I look forward to hearing some of your wisdom, if it be shared.  :)

-Brandon
Forester, Nantahala National Forest

SwampDonkey

Hi Mike, welcome to the forum.

The situation you describe is just as active here with clear cutting and liquidation. The root of the problem here includes farm bills that need to be paid, inheritance taxes need to be paid, and we have a lot of low grade wood, due in part to past high grades and our northern climate. Also, the number one silviculture practice is clear cutting, which is promoted by government and forest companies. Only the last 10 years or less have they started using selection systems on crown hardwood forests to promote sawlog and veneer production. Not all hardwood forest is decent quality, including virgin forests. So, only the stands with most potential are managed for hardwood. Hardwood have been treated pretty much as weeds here and they still do not plant hardwood on crown land and most private land. They don't even plant many cedar, and we have some large cedar stands here that have been 'slaughtered'. They have stopped reforesting hardwood sites with softwood for the most parts since the mid 90's. I do a lot of pre-commercial thinning and most my sites are hardwood (maple, yellow birch, ash, beech, aspen, butternut*, basswood*, cherry*, red oak*), some sites are mixed with fir, white pine, spruce and cedar. We have some hardwood stands that convert to softwoods or mixed with maple and birch and beech.

* less common species.

So as you can see we have some common ground, but circumstances are a bit different.  I don't blame the loggers any more than the land owners, unless they are timber thieves. But, as you say, foresters are not as respected as they should be. And some people wouldn't know when they are robbed even after the fact. Sad. When the majority of folks have wood cut up here, they don't want a middle man. And that is usually the forester. When people ask me to do a management plan I only accept lots that have not been cleared.  If they wanna liquidate I'm also not interested. Makes for some lean times.  ::) And I offer silviculture services such as thinning on the 12-15 year clear cuts. I would only suggest planting to an owner if the regen was doing poorly or on an abandoned field.

cheers
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

People practicing forestry get a lot of heat from the environmental folks and from those who don't think trees should be cut.  But who is growing the trees?  Those other folks sure are not.    Most of them don't grow anything but criticism.  Foresters are needed to do it right.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Texas Ranger

Now if you could get  Joe Zorzin to settle down and join this agust group we, foresters, would be a group on web that talks the  talk and walks the walk.

Wecome from Texas
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

sprucebunny

Welcome to the Forum, Mike !

Very good and educational website  8)

How far north do you travel ???
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Texas Ranger on March 24, 2007, 11:43:56 AM
Now if you could get  Joe Zorzin to settle down and join this agust group we, foresters, would be a group on web that talks the  talk and walks the walk.

Wecome from Texas

Oh, the forestmeister. Is he still kicking and screaming from on high? ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Texas Ranger

He has a new girl friend, haven't heard much from him lately.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

jrdwyer

Welcome to the forum.

I don't post often enough, but this is a great site with lots of diverse people and loads of good information.

Unfortunately, I can't financially at this point walk away from high-grades or liquidation timber harvests if that is what my client requests after discussing all options. It boils down to a short-term mentality of getting the highest price for the timber today and there are many timber buyers suggesting this type of cut in order to offer a higher price per acre to the landowner and also to eliminate the need and cost of marking and managing the stand. So, it ends up that many of the consultants in this area (myself included) do these types of timber sales. At the very least, we help such landowners get the highest price and handle the timber sale in a professional manner.

I much prefer to do good forest management and probably 1/3 of my clients accept my management recommendations for the forest even though this may result in a slight reduction in current sale proceeds in favor of greater returns over time. Landowner who carryout pre-commercial TSI are probably about 10% of my clients.

I think the only way to get greater amounts of forest management accomplished with smaller private landowners is to have incentives or property tax breaks that are sufficient and only pay if the landowner achieves a very high level of accomplishment.

For example, in Indiana we have the Classified Forest Program. To get in you just need 10 acres of woods, a forest management plan, and a surveyor's written plot of the area. As long as you leave 50 square feet per acre of basal area after a timber harvest and use BMPs and keep the cattle out and don't burn it every year, then you get the $1/acre assessed value for the forest. You don't have to carryout TSI even if that was a general recommendation in the management plan. You don't have to cut timber even if you have mature or over mature trees and a cut recommendation was made. So this was a model program when it was set up, but the standards of accomplishment are not that high today.

Another option is to only allow licensed foresters to carry out recommended forestry practices in any woods and accept the loss of private property rights in return for the 'greater' good. This should get a landowner response!

WDH

Pretty soon then, all the licensed foresters would work for the government.  That would put a big "WHACK" on private property rights :(.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Tom

consider me as having responded.  :D

OneWithWood

Quote from: jrdwyer on April 01, 2007, 05:56:15 PM

Another option is to only allow licensed foresters to carry out recommended forestry practices in any woods and accept the loss of private property rights in return for the 'greater' good. This should get a landowner response!

I think that one is dead on arrival.  Requiring a certified forester be involved in a contractural cutting on classified land is not a bad thing and I would support that.  To require me to use a forester every time I harvest my own trees is over the top.  Now if the state would increase funding and manpower so that my district forester would be able to assist me with marking a treatment I would go for that.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

SwampDonkey

Something that worries me is not being able to sell wood. The companies can get cheaper crown wood and no longer have an obligation to buy private wood since the 1993 amendment to the crown lands and forests act. The crown lands are certified, so they can simply say, since you don't meet our certification obligations, we won't take your wood. The federation of woodlot owners have been pursuing certification schemes here since 1994. They are considering the Pan Canadian scheme, but to my knowledge have not made the decision to commit to it. You can't even find many interested in a  management plan, so we have a long way to go there. Nobody wants to pay for a $800 management plan, but they'll let someone log $60,000 of wood off their ground with no restraint. I've never been able to figure that out and probably never will. Maybe eventually the consulting forester can fill a niche around here with certification. Trouble is with what I've been reading, most these certifiers come from outside and get appointed by the certifying body whose office is in Germany or something, and the local foresters get passed over. I remember one group that came and they couldn't even answer questions about their certification program, what a joke.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

OneWithWood

One good thing to come along recently is that all Classified Woodlands in Indiana are automatically certified by default.  Our woods must be inspected every five years by a district forester so it is a no brainer.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

crtreedude

Welcome PracticingForester. This is a great group of people with a lot of valuable viewpoints.

Some of us aren't exactly in the North (well, I am North of the equator - does that count?)

Since you are practicing, does that mean you aren't that good yet?  ::) (you will learn humor - or attempts at humor - is a big part of the forum, and arguing about grits too)
So, how did I end up here anyway?

Tom

QuoteOur woods must be inspected every five years by a district forester ...
  or else what?

Our woods must be verified,in writing, by the forester/landowner who wrote the management plan for the reason of keeping the "Green Belt Agricultural tax incentive".  Usually it is a behind the scenes operation between the tax assessor's office and the responsible party.  Usually, once trees are planted, aerial photos are used to verify that they still stand.

The reason is to  verify that the land is being used for a bona fide agricultural use and warrants the incentive.  The truth is that the tax assessor would love for the owner to default on some part of the form and allow the land to have the tax incentive taken away.  The tax rolls blossom that way.

Life has taught me that the Government's sole purpose is restrict citizens from doing what they want to do.

The more "power" given to the bureaucrats, the less freedoms remain for the citizens.  That's OK if you like to lead your life with a ring in your nose, but I don't.  I can't understand why so many people want the Government to be involved in everything to make sure that the citizens are doing what they the Government wants.  Personally, I don't think it is the Governments business whether I cut a tree or not, and resent Bureaucrats looking over my shoulder to make  sure that I'm doing what they want.   Building inspection is one of those areas where they could just butt out.   Why do I need some taskmaster, who doesn't have the knowledge to judge what he is inspecting, telling me what to do and when to do it?  Requiring a State inspection and State forester to "allow" me to do something on my land is just a continuance of the same logic.

If anyone, the government included, wants to "rule" my life on my land, they should have to present me with a purchase agreement that is in a quantity satisfying my will to sell.  Once they own the land, they can do with it what they want.  As long as it is mine, I expect the same consideration.

There!  I guess I replied again.


crtreedude

Tom,

It is such a balancing act. Without government oversight into things that are needed for all - it is too easy to have nothing. For those of us who have forest lands - we often forget these lands are buffers for water. Fresh water is getting scarcer. So, the general population has a reason to give incentives to owners of forest for maintaince. Once you accept the money, you have to walk the walk.

I don't like the idea of handing over power to politicians, but then again, I don't like the idea of resources in the future being available based on the good will of private individuals.

Not sure the balance, but there are more than a few failed civilizations who tried the route of hoping that private individuals will make the sacrifices necessarily for the common good.

Building inspection is a good example. You are I assumed skilled - but what about the guy down the street who is trying to save a few bucks by doing his own wiring? I have seen more than my share of wiring that is down right scary. It might not catch up with him, but might kill his family, or the poor family who buys his home in the future.

We have people with really good skills in construction come to Costa Rica and complain someone has to inspect their stuff. After all, they do know more than the locals about construction.

But what they don't know is about earthquakes and how the land here reacts to earthquakes and the tropical rains. I remember very well visiting someone and looking at their beautiful home. They offered for me to stay the night, I refused - I like to sleep. Great house for the north, but one good shake at is would come apart.

And they were creating a bed and breakfast!
So, how did I end up here anyway?

Tom

Fred, I can understand that argument being made by someone who has not.  It's the has-not's that think that the "has's" are just storing the has-not's stuff.  Now, I dont' classify a has-not as just some poor fellow without means.  I classify a has-not as anyone who thinks that my stuff is his and his stuff is his.

If it really worked out that the Government was a benevolent partner in helping you to attain your goals, I wouldn't be such a critic.  Unfortunately, the proof of the pudding has shown government misanthropes to greedily usurp anything in sight that may excuse another dollar being put in the coffers. 

I'm the kind of guy who, after finding out that someone slipped and fell to their death from the side of a mountain would be more tempted to say, "He shouldn't have been standing so close", rather than going to the senate to get laws passed to put up guard rails, warning signs, hiring a guard service and prohibiting others from enjoying the view.

If a building inspector was just guaranteeing that a developer built house was to code, it would make more sense.  I resent the limitations that I can't build a storage building without one telling me that I have to use some specified hardware when I want to build a timber-frame.

A friend of mine finally moved out of state when he was prohibited from building his "DC Electricity" house.  the guy was a genius and wanted to build as environmentally and frugally friendly home as he could design.  He wasn't allowed to put his kitchen in a separate room connected to the main house with a breezeway.  Nor was he allowed to build his bathroom higher than the rest of the house with a walkway going to it.

His DC wiring, plugs and accessories had to be duplicated in AC even though there was no connection to the public grid planned. (The house was a couple of miles from the nearest road.)  The windows he needed for solar environmental control were disallowed because they were placed in the "wrong" places.

The only way he could have a water cistern was to call it a swimming pool and he couldn't get a move-on permit until the house had been hooked to the local power company.

There were other things imposed as well, so he left.  I would have too.

I have a creek behind my property that accepts runoff.  Being a tree farmer, I'm cognizant of the BMP's and wish to abide by them.  I'm the one that the Government watches with a magnifying glass to make sure that my tire ruts don't carry water.

Then some jack-leg builds a pond next door, cuts down and buries the trees, fills the property and the creek marsh, killing the rest of the trees and the inspectors/water management people OK what he has done, because he wants to build houses some day.  No fines for not permitting or anything.

What about the guy that wants to do his own wiring?  Well what about the guy that wants to have a Kid? You know that there are Genes out there that will cause all kinds of ailments, including criminal minds that may kill someone one day.  So far it hasn't been too tightly controlled but that doesn't mean that there aren't people out there that think an inspection of the manner of procreation should governed.

No, I'm not intimating that it should be allowed for someone to do what they want if it destroys the options that others have to do what they want.  There has to be some reason kept at the core of a society.  Still, There should be a recognition that there is such a thing as private property  if the Society preaches that it exists.

Airplanes don't "have" to be built by conglomerates.  You can still build one and fly it over the most populated city in the USA. They just call them Homebuilts.  Not all of them require FAA inspections.  Have you ever seen a distinction made in the Real Estate Magazine for a home that was "home-built"?  It might also mean Buyer beware but it wouldn't stop a man from having his dream.

Actually, I'm not an unreasonable fellow.  I'm probably not even as much of a curmudgeon as I appear.  I do think that controlling individuals and governments need to be curtailed and held to their original responsibilities.  This "protect everybody" mentality doesn't take much effort before it begins to wear on Individuals, private property rights and accepted personal freedoms.

crtreedude

Hi Tom,

You can probably guess that I am not that far off from you - we are a bit more relaxed about things done here that up there.

There is a reasonable level of protection - and then there is unreasonable. I don't believe in cluttering the landscape with fences to protect those who don't have enough sense not to walk off a cliff.

Where private rights end and public rights begin is a difficult line to draw. I rather doubt if I know where it is.
So, how did I end up here anyway?

crtreedude

Oh, I forgot - regarding genes - isn't it true you have to have a blood test before you get married to check for certain conditions? They don't prevent you getting married (yet) but they do make sure you know.

As the world gets more and more crowded, it is much more easy to step on each others feet.
So, how did I end up here anyway?

Tom

Yes, a blood test is usually reqired, but I think it is to determine the presence of a syphilitic condition.  It wouldn't take but a minute for some "good meaning" bureaucrat to turn that into a DNA test though.   If they did, the reason would be to prevent the marriage, not to allow it.  :)

crtreedude

Tom, I think you just said something I can't agree with - surely there isn't such a thing as a "good meaning" bureaucrat?  ::)

In truth, the issue is with the general population who wants to not have to think and take care of themselves. They want to go back to their inane TV show and have someone else take care of all their neglected issues.

In other words, they don't want to grow up.
So, how did I end up here anyway?

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