Advice on Getting My Feet Wet

[mechengineer13]

Guys and Gals,

Just ran across ya'lls forum recently and I have to say there are some great discussions and lots of knowledge here.  Based on that, I thought I would ask some advice.  I'm thinking on getting my feet wet in this sawing business you're talking about.  I'm an engineer by trade (not the kind that gets to blow the whistle >:(), but enjoy woodworking as a hobby.  I worked residential construction to help pay my way through college.  My wife and I have 7 acres (I'm sure that's small in comparison to what many of you may have, but I'm still working on it) we plan on putting our dream house on in the next few years.  I plan on doing a lot of the work on the house myself.  The land is all timber with a mix of hardwoods and pine.  We have a lot of pine in the Pee Dee and Sandhills region of South Carolina.  I can't come to grips with clearing an area for the house and cutting up all those nice trees into firewood and would like to use the lumber for flooring, cabinetry, and my woodworking hobby.  We have another acre on Lake Wateree not far from here and will be building on that next.

Now that you have a little background, I'm wondering what you guys would recommend as a first saw for someone in my situation to get my feet wet, and if you know anyone willing to part with one to a good home  :.  My thoughts are in the $3000 and under range.  A buddy of mine with 100 acres wants me to get one real bad, but he wants me to get a hydraulic cause he doesn't want to work and it won't be his money buying it.  I contacted bad_boards about his Hudson 28, but it was already gone.  I've looked at Hudson and Woodmizer's websites and the new saws look purdy, but I'm not quite sure (translated as I'm not sure I could convince my wife  ;)) if I want to spend all that money yet.  I've also contemplated building one. Hadn't done something like that, but I'm persistent and know I would eventually be successful.  Just consider me a Dangerous Dan wanna-be/in diapers.  I would be getting one primarily as a hobby saw, but who knows, from your posts, when people hear or see that I have one it could turn into a second income.  I'm anxious to hear your advice.  Thanks.

[BBTom]

There are many good mills built by the sponsors of this forum. 

Here are some things to consider.

I will focus on band mills, cause that is what I am most familiar with. 


How much time and energy do you have to spare?
     A manual mill will make just as nice boards as a larger hydraulic, but it takes lots more work to make it happen. 

What is the resale value of the mill you are looking at?
     I am partial to WM due to the service I have recieved from mine, and I know that I can sell it when I move up to a new mill for most of what I paid for it.  Some mills do not hold their value as well. Maybe if you got a good deal on a hydraulic mill, you could sell it to your buddy for about what you have in it, after you have used it to make what you need.

Do you really need to buy a mill?
     You might be ahead to prepare the logs and have someone else bring in their mill and make your lumber. This also gives you an idea of capabilities of a mill and how much work it is.  OR talk your buddy into buying that nice hydraulic mill he wants and YOU use it.

Many more things to consider, but I am tired and sleepy and the brain is shutting down for the night.  I am certain that the other members will give you a few more suggestions. 

[DanG]

Welcome to the Forum, ME13!  Boy, have you got good timing! 8)  Just hold on to your thoughts until mid-May and attend the Sawlex show at Columbia, SC.  There will be a bunch of mills there, and even more FF members to take you by the hand and guide you through.  After that, you will have a much better idea of what you want and need.  Take your Wife with you and the purse strings will likely loosen, when she see's the difference a few bucks makes. ;D

[Cedarman]

ME 13, welcome. You are peeking through the door of this huge sawing, woodworking building and getting a glimpse of a vast expanse before you, mostly hidden by the trees. 

Do not rush into this building, take your time as there are many areas that can be missed if in a hurry. DanG's idea is tremendous.  Also visit a mill in your area, even offer to work for a day or two for some education.  Get to know the other millers in your area.  Most will share knowledge.  This forum has enough info to get a doctorate.  Learn your species, what each is best for. What lumber looks good to you.  Cabinets can be made of about any species.  You will look at them every day.  How much character do you want in them.  Just because the big box stores have clear wood, doesn't mean you can't use knotty hickory.

I was an electrical logging engineer and then a math teacher before I bought my first WM LT30 in '83.  It ended up being a life altering decision for the whole family.

You are at the beginning of an unbelievable journey that will lead to many opportunities and an enjoyable life.

[TexasTimbers]

Welcome mech. I will say all the advice is sound and needs to be taken seriously. Even the advice I am about to give which I always give anyone before they buy their first mill.
If you come to the point where you KNOW you want to jump in, jump in the deep end. Buy a hydraulic mill if at all possible. Another way to put it, buy as much mill as you can justifiably afford according to your own finances.
Not everyone will agree with me mind you. Many owners of manual mills will say "Oh I just love my manual mill" and all the while they are grumbling about how they wish they had a hydraulic one.
one of the reasons I say buy a hydraulic mill, and I'll just go ahead and say an orange one, is that they hold their resale value better. You can almost always get your money back especially if you bought a used one for the right money.

WARNING: Most guys (and gals) who get into this game with notions of doing it "part time" and "on the side" soon become pulled into the vortex and wish they had bought more mill!

CAVEAT: We are not responsible for the amount of time you will spend away from the boob tube watching rediculously stupid TV shows.

CAUTION: Sawmilling is addictive and can cause wide emotional swings from frustration to elation and everything in between.

DANGER: Getting involved in sawmilling can promote overall happiness especially when your spouse is involved!

;)

[WDH]

I you do get a manual mill, you can pay for it with the money you will save on wood for that new house.  Also, you cn be inventive and build some nice features into your new house with that wood.

[thecfarm]

I looked at a few of those new $3000 mills.I was not impressed.I spent more than twice that much and I feel this one will take the abuse that I can dish out.I'm not saying mine is better than anyone alse's but it's what I use.I feel you should go up into the $6-8000 range for a new manual one.I only use mine for my own use and I think I have paid for it with only a couple out buildings. I have finally figured it out that I need to buy bigger than what I need at that time.Hyds would be handy,but for what I use it for it is fine.Now if I was going to saw 2 homes out with it,like you,I would go for hyds.Than I could justify the cost of hyds.They will pay for themselves in no time.Maybe I will buid a new house or two.   :D   :D

[brdmkr]

ME,

Your situation mirrors mine so much it is scary.  I am a woodworker.  I bought a small piece of land.  I thought, boy it sure would be nice to convert those trees into lumber to feed my woodworking addiction.  Hey, I might even be able to saw a little on the side.  I could even cut lumber for my own house, shop, etc.  That was about 2 years ago.

I bought a Lucas mill.  I went with a swinger because I had no support equipment and only a Ford Ranger to transport things.  In a little over a year, working only when other things did not demand my time, I have:

1.  Cut all of the lumber to frame and side my shop (1000 sq feet).
2.  Cut 5 - 6 thousand board feet for customers and turned away at least twice that much.
3.  Sold over 1000 dollars worth of lumber.
4.  Have about 2000 bdft stashed for future use.

I originally said that I would like to use the mill to cut my own lumber for woodworking and construction.  I thought it would be great if I could cut enough for others or sell enough lumber to pay for the mill in 3 - 4 years.  I was told by a DanG forum member  ;) that I could easily do that.  I am in far enough along to know that he told me the DanG truth 8).

Also, for what it is worth.... I now enjoy sawing so much that I find I don't do as much woodworking.  I didn't count on that!

You might as well go ahead and buy a mill.  You have been bitten by the sawmill bug.  It is incurable!

One last thing, welcome to the best forum on the internet!

[tcsmpsi]

Yep,

Pretty similar to your 'wants', and brdmkr's 'realities'.   :D

I went with a mobile , manual bandmill, where brdmkr  is a swinger.  Uh, in a milling capacity, anyhow.  I'm pretty sure.   I think.   :D

If I were going to be doing very many larger logs (over 22" diameter), I would like to have a bigger set up, with log-loading and turning capabilities.  The head feed, up/down/forth/back, I'm not concerned with.  Maybe hydraulic blade tensioner/arm in/out.

But, I don't do many larger logs.  Though the mfr states a "30" capacity", it's not feasible. 

As mentioned, I'm not sawing for commercial lumber production.  And, not going to be.  I have way too many other ironed commitments.  But, there are plenty of specialty situations for a little of this and little of that here and there to offset any milling costs.

I like my manual bandmill.  I like feeding the cut, and as I am set up, when I'm through the cut, I take the board/slab, take the head back and go again.   In fact, actually feeding the cut, is my most favoritistist part.  I don't know how much I would like it if I didn't get to make those little personal, intimate journeys. 

I'm running congruent with thecfarm about looking more at the $6-10 k mills, as opposed to lesser mills.  I know it is a bit more initial outlay, but I do believe you will be much more satisfied.   If you decide to accept the mission.

Your buddy, with the 100 acres, what's he wanting to add to the program?   ;D

In my humble opinion, yours is the perfect need for a mill.  (though I may be just a tad biased)(maybe)

[scsmith42]

ME- welcome to the forum.

Lots of good advice has already been shared by others in earlier posts.  The only thing that I will add is that in my life there have been many instances where I wish that I had bought a larger / more capable tool, but very few instances where I regretted buying more tool than I originally thought that I would need...

If you stretch your budget a bit and buy something with more capacity, you probably will not regret it.

Scott

[dad2nine]

My advise would be to buy the most mill you can afford. If your thinking about a manual mill factor in something to lift, move the logs and boards, I found a Bobcat is ideal, it's amazing what you can do with on of those little things.

Thanks

[Woodbender]

Hey Dad9nine

What's the size of yer Bobcat and how much log can you move with it?

My advise would be to buy the most mill you can afford. If your thinking about a manual mill factor in something to lift, move the logs and boards, I found a Bobcat is ideal, it's amazing what you can do with on of those little things.

Thanks

[WDH]

For $6000- $8000, you can get a manual mill with a bed extentsion to cut longer lengths like the Woodmizer LT 15 that can handle a lot of heavy duty sawing.  Sawmilling is a not-so-delicate process, so you need a good stout solid well designed mill, even if it is manual, so that it will hold up to the rigors of frequent sawing.

[DWM II]

Welcome to the forum, as you can see there is no shortage of folks here willing to tell their stories and give advice. Heres my nickles worth.
I bought a used LT40 hyd. less than a year ago. I may have paid more but I wanted the hydraulics. In the last year I have sawn 10,000 + bdft for other folks, built a jam up photography set for my wife's studio, (which makes us money as well) started building a 32x40 barn and saw shed that currently has over 2000 bdft in it already and not finished. All this has taken place and I havent bought a log yet. At the present time I am building a Dang-Deadheader loading arch (do a search, this is handy for one man operations) for my 16' trailer to go get more FREE logs. You are in the right place to learn, just dont limit yourself and if you have the coin, spend what it takes to get the machine you need. In other words dont short yourself. Good luck,
Donnie

[mechengineer13]

Thanks very much to everyone who replied, and thanks for the welcomes.  As I suspected, I got some great input so far.  It looks like I do have some questions to respond to from your posts:

For BBTom:  You asked if I really needed a mill.  Truthfully, no it's a want more than a need, and you bring up a good point to consider.  However, it is a want that I think will eventually pay for itself.  I could hire someone to cut, but ever since the appliance repair guy broke the pump on my washing machine on purpose (about 20 years ago; he didn;t know I was looking over his shoulder) and tried to charge me for the repair, I've worked on everything myself; cars, appliances, etc.  I had to physically escort him from my house (I'm being polite in how I describe that.  He certainly didn't expect that response from me.  He should have pulled that on someone much smaller than him).  Since that experience, I've acquired the belief that why pay someone for what I can do myself.  I'm not saying the miller I would hire wouldn't do a good job.  I also get alot of satisfaction out of working with my hands.  It's good therapy, and I know I would enjoy it.  By the way I looked at your website and enjoyed it.  That was a huge cherry log.

DanG – Thanks for the heads up on the show.  Since that is only about 30 minutes from me, I have no excuse not to go.  Now, convincing my wife to go...Hmmmmm! :-\

Cedarman - Congratulations on your award.  I'm not quite sure if there are any millers in my area, but I will contact Woodmizer and some of the other manufacturers and see.  Working with them is a good idea.  I'll offer up my strong back and weak mind for a day.

KevJay – I think you're right about the hydraulics, biggest mill you can get.  It's a big cash investment and I always think that through and through and through....I have a hard time parting with that much money for anything.

Brdmkr – A couple of more similarities for you.  A 1987 chevy S-10 for "support equipment".  It's old, it's ugly, it has a spun rod bearing that I need to replace (the tack tack tack is kind of a soothing sound now and it just keeps on going), but it does what I need.  I also need to build a shop.  My garage is overrun.  One difference, I haven't tried that swinging thing yet that tcsmpsi insinuated about you. ;)

Tcsmspi  - I've read that there is a feel with a manual that you can't get with a hydraulic feed, and you've confirmed that.

Dad2nine – If that means what I think it means, you should have plenty of loaders helping you.  I do plan on getting a tractor for the grading and foundation work on both houses.

DWM II - That's one thing that would really make this work.  Free logs.  Now I need to find a good used mill.  I'm also looking at building a log arch as well.

A couple of you asked about my buddy with the 100 acres.  He would have plenty of trees to add to the equation.  He eventually wants to buy into part of the mill.  Right now, he can't afford it because he's paying off the land.  He raises turkeys (do turkeys need all that space for grazing? :-\)

You guys gave me the information I need to consider, now I need to decide, get into swinging like brdmkr , a big manual, or a hydraulic.  The decision many wrestled with I'm sure.  All of you have convinced me to spend more money and go bigger.

[LeeB]

The "feel" thing is kinda like driving with and without power steering. You develop a feel for it either way but the power steering sure is a lot easyer. :D :D LeeB

[LeeB]

DWM II, do you have more info on your barn? I need to build one about the same size.

Sorry about breaking the thread but I really want to know about the barn. LeeB

[brdmkr]

ME

The only thing that is a swinger around these parts is my mill ;D
That should set Tcsmspi at ease and dispel any rumors. 

About the only difference between your future mill truck and my old mill truck is your is a Chevy and mine was a Ford.

Seriously, you might want to look at swingers if you have a lot of larger logs available.  A swing mill set up over a large log can really make some production for a manual mill.

Regardless, there are a number of really good mills out there.   Perhaps some of the best companies can be found by just looking to the left.

[happyj]

here here
i also would like to hear more about the barn it is my next project after... clearing, fencing some electrical... still would like to hear more about it though

[Dave Shepard]

I agree with the "get as much saw as you can afford advice". Even if you start small you can always upgrade. If you are patient, you can build your house without to many trips to the lumberyard. ;D What type of buildings are you building? Are you going to be putting up stick or timber? Building a timber frame house you could look at the trees you cleared everyday and not have to feel bad about cutting them down. If you need any advice on timber framing check out the timber framing section, there are several people on this forum that had no experience when they started on the timber frame journey and have beautiful homes to show for it. Good luck.


Dave

[tcsmpsi]

Well, ME as with your conscious decision to take on your own repairs, etc., your self-intimated independence, land (with trees, I presume), need for building(s)...the question of "if" a sawmill is moot.   :D

Concentrate on when and what.  Save yourself some time.   :D

It has been just about a year since I made the conscious decision to DO that very thing, and started clearing a spot to do it in.  Working full time (avg 70 hrs a week) at the day job, it has been a hoot and a challenge, throughout the family.

Just for reference, check out my and others photo gallerys. 

Oh...and brdmkr, you can color me at ease, now.    ;D

[DanG]

Personally, I wouldn't consider buying a mill together with the neighbor.  It just sounds like a recipe for disaster, to me.  If you want to get together with him, you buy the mill and let him buy the tractor.  That way, you both have something left if things don't work out between you. ;)

You have a little time to pique your Wife's interest before the Sawlex show.  Just keep telling her about all the zany characters you're chatting with, and her curiosity will get the best of her. ;D :D

[brdmkr]

You have a little time to pique your Wife's interest before the Sawlex show.  Just keep telling her about all the zany characters you're chatting with, and her curiosity will get the best of her. ;D :D

Who's zany around here?????  Who?

I agree with tcsmpsi, 'if' is pretty much settled.  Now it is what 8)

[Duncan]

About the feel of a manual mill.  I would best describe it as tired, really really tired. :D :D

Hydraulic is a must other than extremely small hobby sawing.  If your scale is not large enough to warrant a hydraulic mill then hire the job done. 

[mechengineer13]

Yep, "if" is no longer the question.  I think a potting and gardening shed for my better half would do wonders in additional justification for the purchase.  I've run across a used LT30, but the specs are not listed on the Woodmizer website since it appears to be a discontinued model.  I'm assuming it is comparable to the LT28.  Anyone know about maximum diameter and length for that saw?

[DanG]

Yep.  There's plenty of people here that can give ya that info, but I ain't one of'em.  I can tell ya this, though;  It will handle a whole lot more log than you want to turn by hand.