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Vermont Acceptable Management Pracitices (AMPs)

Started by boatermark, March 19, 2007, 12:15:34 PM

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boatermark

I am gearing up to do some small scale, long term logging on my property in Vermont for firewood and habitat improvements and have been doing a little research before I get started.  In the process, I came across Vermont's Acceptable Management Practices for Maintaining Water Quality on Logging Jobs in Vermont (commonly refered to as Vermont's AMPs).  From what I can tell it is written into law, and violation of the AMPs can result in some pretty heavy fines.  Does anybody have experience with this working or living in Vermont? 

beenthere

Welcome to the forum.

I'm not from VT, but the VT AMP sounds like it might have a good grip on what you can/cannot do. Will be interested in hearing what you find out. Owners rights are disappearing every day, and the non-landowners want to control those rights.

It came close in this part of Wisconsin, when a small paragraph was inserted in a "land-use plan" that made it impossible for anyone to cut/remove/alter a tree on any property in excess of 5 acres. As far as I know, that paragraph has been tossed out, but just the thought that someone would think to put it there, doesn't mean it has been forgotten. It will show up again someday.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Riles

Contact your local extension forester (state employee) for details. He can give you the specifics. Most of them are common sense and are there for good reason. Some others....

In some states Best Management Practices (BMPs) are voluntary, with the threat that if you don't do them, they become law. That brings in fees, inspections, paperwork, and a great big "I told you so."
Knowledge is good -- Faber College

stonebroke

in VT I don't think BMPs are voluntary. The communist state of VT. doesn't recognize many property rights. For instance you cannot clearcut.

Stonebroke

wiam

It is not true that you cannot clearcut in VT.  There are maximums that trigger a permit. 

Will

Engineer

Try this link:

http://www.vtfpr.org/pdf/waterq.pdf

Basically, you need to have acceptable management practices IN PLACE, according to the guidelines set forth by the State, or you will be required to obtain a permit to discharge "waste" (slash/woody debris, mud or petroleum product).  If you have the AMP in place and there is a discharge, there is no violation.  If you do NOT have the AMP in place and there is a discharge, you are in violation of VT water quality laws and you most likely will be fined.  If no AMP and no discharge, you have no violation and no fine, but you take the risk.  Basically, you need to follow the AMP rules for constructing and maintaining roads, trails, log landings and stream crossings, and as long as you do (and document them well) you will have no problems.  VT is pretty strict on their rules and pretty hard on violators but they will also give you a long rope to hang yourself with.  Oh - about the permit - good luck on that, they very rarely grant permits to violations of water quality rules, except under exceptional circumstances.  I can't honestly think of a situation that would classify as such.  Do your homework, follow the guidelines and you will be all set.   

On a regular basis, I deal with water quality issues from a construction point of view - construction discharge, erosion control and stormwater permitting, here in VT.  I can tell you that one good thing we have here is a clear set of rules. 
Riles and stonebroke are correct, however.  You don't HAVE to follow the rules, as long as you don't create water quality issues.  The instant you do, however, you better have the AMP's already in place or you are in deep doodoo.

Tom

They've changed most of our BMP's in Florida to law.  The desk jockies  know best.  I'm not famliar with the strictness of the legal aspect, but I've seen changes being made that take many rules out of the voluntary realm.  It's assumed, of course, that people in the business are out to destroy the world.

WDH

While many of the "Best Management Practices" are "voluntary", if a water quality incident occurs (say direct deposition of soil into a stream), you are liable for significant fines and penalties under the Clean Water Act.  If the AMP's or BMP's are not followed and there is an environmental incident that results, that can be big trouble for you.  They are only voluntary unless a negative result can be established, then the penalties apply.  Most of the BMP's are good sound management practices and are not a burden to "doing things right".  Legislation that prevents clearcutting or that otherwise infringes on your right to manage your timber under BMP's is a whole nother animal.  That is called "Loss of Private Property Rights to make the Do-Gooders happy", and we should staunchly oppose that.  IMHO. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

thecfarm

There are alot of laws here in Maine about logging and water. Seems like I only here about trouble around brooks with logging.Some camp owners get in trouble from cutting to many trees too.There is a set back of so many feet and only a presentage can be cut.There is alot to it.I'm lucky,I do not have a brook going through my land.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Riles

I would have to amend my earlier statement based on WDH's comment. In Louisiana, state BMPs are voluntary. The FEDERAL BMPs are mandatory, and many of those center on wetlands.
Knowledge is good -- Faber College

sprucebunny

I don't want to drag this off topic too far, but I've wondered who is fining the trucks that illegaly drive thru my land causing erosion and silty run-off ( lost 30 yards of soil from one hill in one storm :o ) ???

Will I be fined for trying to fix the damage ?

And while we're at it...who is fining the beavers when one of thier dams collapses and silts up the stream ???

MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

stonebroke

now now Beavers are natural so they can produce as much erosion and silt as they want . The govewrnment would never want to harm them and that silt doesn't count. At least thats want NYS DEC tells me. In NY They are protected even though they are all over and flooding everything. The DEC loves them because once they form a pond it is a wetland forever even after they move out and every thing grows back. DEC's philosophy  is once a wetland always a wetland. Ity helps in their goal to control every acre of ground and drive all the normal people out of upstate NY .

Stonebroke

boatermark

Quote from: Engineer on March 19, 2007, 09:58:51 PM
Try this link:

http://www.vtfpr.org/pdf/waterq.pdf

Basically, you need to have acceptable management practices IN PLACE, according to the guidelines set forth by the State, or you will be required to obtain a permit to discharge "waste" (slash/woody debris, mud or petroleum product).

Thanks for the input Engineer.  I did find the document you included the link for earlier in my research.  I just wanted to get some input from folks who have experience carrying out the guidelines set forth in that document.  I wanted to do my best to follow the guidelines regardless since they seem like the right thing to do.  Doesn't make sense to ruin the land when you are trying to improve it.  Any additional experience with these particular guidelines would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Black_Bear

Stonebroke wrote:
"The communist state of VT. doesn't recognize many property rights. For instance you cannot clearcut."

Not sure where you are getting your information but that statement is about as false as they get.

Having been associated with logging and forestry in VT, NH, and ME I must say that Vermonts Forest Management Policy is the least intrusive (on property rights) of the three states. Maine's Forest Practices Act was a knee jerk reaction to the fallout from clearcutting in the 1980s (anyone ever heard of Jonathan Carter?) and, according to many Maine foresters, is not a sound policy in regards to residual stocking and the goals of many Maine landowners. Maine's liquidation harvesting bill was originally designed to mimic VT's heavy cut law, which is probably the premise behind Stonebroke's comment. The heavy cut law in VT applies only if you are working on 40 acres or more and want to clearcut. And then you only have to leave C-line stocking, which seems absurd to me because the residual stocking often consists of poorly formed timber, timber of lesser grade species, or timber that is the same age as the trees harvested and will never release due to their age. Last I knew, in Maine, any clearcut greater than 5 acres requires an "intent to harvest" notification and there are multiple levels of "clearcut categories". Maine and VT are apples and oranges though when it comes to forest industry. Although VT's forest industry is an important primary and secondary producer for the state economy, it is but a blip on the radar when compared to Maine's forest products industry. 

The only state we have been fined in is NH. We had a beautiful tree bridge in place but did not have a permit, which was a costly oversight on the part of the boss. Even though we were not disrupting flowage or creating debris dams we were fined $1000 for not having a permit. I like NH's regs. in that they put a premium on water quality (hence the fine) and are quite regulatory, but if you comply with the laws you will rarely be reprimanded and, for the most part, you can clearcut as much as you want (there are basal area laws in affect when it comes to buffers though). Both VT and NH address slash and water quality issues in the laws and we have followed them and only been in trouble once.

All 3 states attempt to design their forest policy's around protecting the public and the state. There will always be "gray areas". The legislators design the laws so as not to infringe to greatly on property rights but also so that the state may have some control over the industry. If you are practicing sound logging in VT (using AMP's) and do not cause problems for your neighbors or the state (which means any water body) then you can do just about anything to your land.

Although I can understand Stonebroke's comment about communist VT, blanket statements like the one above do not have any meaning to me. If you are informed, and it is hard not to be informed in this information age of computers, then blanket statements can largely be ignored.

Here are some useful links that I have bookmarked:


http://extension.unh.edu/pubs/ForPubs/gtnhthl.pdf

http://www.uvm.edu/~uvmext/agriculture/?
Page=timber.html&SM=submenuforestprod.html

Ed, VT commie   ;D
     

stonebroke

Black Bear

Pardon Me I was misinformed. Does your post mean that up to forty acres you do not need a permit to clearcut? Maybe I was a little strong with the communist state maybe it is just a socialist republic. We in NY are not far behind. I have talked to a lot of native Vermonters who are very upset with the way Vermont is going. It seems as though the flatlanders have taken over. Even you in your post says that the c line stocking is absurd. This harks back to the old southern seed tree laws. At least in NY as far as I can ascertain I could clearcut as long as I do not put any erosion in the streams and effect other people. This said the Adirondack Park is far worst than anything Vermont has thought up so far. When we have people restricting private property rights because they think it looks good or it is the "Right" thing to do we lose some of our liberty. We have the problem in NY of downstaters wanting to be the last people to come to a community, that is they move here and do not want anyone else to move in. I wish that the people would leave us alone as long as we do not effect anyone else. God help us if the ban clearcut movement ever gets going down south.


Stonebroke

Black_Bear

Stonebroke:

No problem bro, we're all in it together! I'd like to think I had the solution to all of our states problems, but that is not likely to happen any time soon.

Didn't mean to dis ya, just wanted to voice my opinion.

Ed

bkellyvtme

Yeah, I think Vermont is going socialist on me. We came up $34M short in the transportation fund and then they want to do state wide health care. :( Where are they going to get the money for that?? Taxes. It's not like they chased businesses out of the state by the hundreds. Property taxes going up, property values sky rocketing, seems like the average Vermonter can not afford Vermont anymore. I know I can't. :'(

boatermark

Ed, thanks for the input.

really, for me it's still a little overwhelming.  I'm just a small landowner with a few trees.  I'd like to be able to take a few trees down here and there every year to help with firewood, improve the little amount of forest I have, and encourage better habitat for wildlife.  I am not a professional, and am not in it to make any money.  However, I do want to do the right thing and am starting by doing a little research  :P.  I also plan on trying to get the county forester over before I really get started.  So, even with this in mind, it's hard to fathom all those rules for my small scale operation  :-\.

Engineer

I guess I misunderstood your intent.  My father has selectively harvested firewood from his 30 acres for almost 40 years, and I dare you to find the trails and "log roads".  They exist, but you would almost have to know where to look.  His equipment has consisted of a Jeep, a small dump trailer, and a chainsaw.   This is for 8-12 cords a year.  If you are on that small a scale, noone will ever notice.  I am starting to work on the same piece of land with my equipment, a small 4wd tractor and saws, and the impact will be negligible.  We try to stay out of the woods when the ground is wet, preferring to harvest during late fall and early winter after the leaves have fallen and somewhat cushioned the ground.  I think that the State wrote the BMP's with a focus on for-profit logging operations, and not necessarily aimed at the landowner harvesting for his own use. 

Tom

QuoteI think that the State wrote the BMP's with a focus on for-profit logging operations, and not necessarily aimed at the landowner harvesting for his own use.

I believe that to be the problem when all governments get involved in making laws where good sense once ruled.  There are some factions that think that all things should be under government control.  Personally I think that the wrong people are making the laws and Government is too big and powerful now.  It's time that the constituancies of all States begin to pay attention to whom they elect and quit voting on "what's in the government for me".  Complacency will be the ruin of us all.  Elect your home people that know what your life style should be.  Encourage your young farmers, foresters and businessmen to run for office on short terms. Make the old timer Government professional get out and earn a paycheck for a year or two.  He'll come around.

boatermark

Quote from: Engineer on March 29, 2007, 10:24:56 PM
I guess I misunderstood your intent.  My father has selectively harvested firewood from his 30 acres for almost 40 years, and I dare you to find the trails and "log roads".  They exist, but you would almost have to know where to look.  His equipment has consisted of a Jeep, a small dump trailer, and a chainsaw.   This is for 8-12 cords a year.  If you are on that small a scale, noone will ever notice.  I am starting to work on the same piece of land with my equipment, a small 4wd tractor and saws, and the impact will be negligible.  We try to stay out of the woods when the ground is wet, preferring to harvest during late fall and early winter after the leaves have fallen and somewhat cushioned the ground.

Yes, this is the type of thing I am planning to do.

Currently on my property, there are some older skid trails from previous logging operations that are barely visible now, and there is a defined trail that has somewhat of a gravel bed.  These were all created well before I purchased the property.  I would propose to use this existing infrastructure.

If any of these required improvements to meet regulations, I would plan to do this over the summer after the ground has dried for use starting early next winter when the ground freezes.

So, again, just trying to learn how to go about this the right way...

Thanks for all the input so far  :)

Engineer

From the sound of it, you probably don't have to do anything.  Just read the BMP's anyway and keep slash out of any streams (if you have any streams....) and otherwise be conscientious of your environment.  Not likely anyone's gonna be banging on your door with a notice of violation in hand.

The trails my dad and I have built, have basically just been paths through the woods.  The property has never been commercially harvested, at least not in the past sixty to eighty years.  When we do build a 'trail' we have found an acceptable slope, staying off steep areas and following the contours, cutting small trees to make a path just wide enough for the Jeep and trailer, and cutting stumps off flush with the ground.  If there's a rock in the way or a hole to be filled, a little bit of shale gravel or some corduroy from branches fills in the hole - We have never run a piece of heavy equipment on any of the trails.  At some point we're going to pull some large oaks off one section of the land, and it's likely we'll harvest those by hiring a horse logger, or using my tractor and a logging arch to get them.  I don't believe in tree-length skidding - it damages too much of the woods.  We'll make use of every stick of the trees we cut, right down to the 2" diameter branches, and what's left is in brush piles for wildlife habitat.

Ron Scott

Sounds like you understand good forest stewardship. ;)
~Ron

Engineer

I've learned a lot of what I know through this forum.  I have all of you to thank for it.

PineNut

Tom said,  "Make the old timer Government professional get out and earn a paycheck for a year or two.  He'll come around."

That is exactly my opinion. It is known as TERM LIMITS.

JPM

ahh, vt and some of it's laws.sometime i think their writen wile the pols are having a acid flash back.

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